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Thread: Church influenced by culture and mysticism

  1. #226
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    Re: Church influenced by culture and mysticism

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Still not seeing a connection in a change of nature and loosing innocence. We feel guilt, shame, death when we sin and we have the Spirit and do not have a sin nature. I just don't understand where this, feelings are a change of nature, come from.
    ....and all are born innocent and without sin.
    Maybe it would be easier to see that being guilty and being dead are not feelings but realities, even if a feeling of guilt can come along with guilt, it does not always. I don't actually think it did with Adam because he blamed God for giving him Eve, rather than owning his own sin/disobedience.

    Adam changed from guiltless/blameless/sinless to guilty and sinful. He was condemned by the law of his sin against God to death. And that death spread to all.

    Romans 5:18
    Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
    Peace to you!

    If anyone makes the assistance of grace to believe the gospel depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" - Council of Orange

  2. #227
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    Re: Church influenced by culture and mysticism

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post


    Because not sinning was possible because God was right there. Jesus did it because God was right there.
    I would have to agree that Adam could have not sinned had it not been for the law/command, which was Holy and good.

    What I wrote was in response to you stating without God=oldman/flesh.
    I think this is the area that needs to be discussed the most because it seems like you are changing your mind at some points. If the oldman/flesh comes after the first sin, and Adam had no sin, he had no oldman....but became an oldman after he sinned.

    Jesus on the other hand is Spirit AND flesh (as in bodily form, not as in oldman) that is why he was able to fulfill the laws of God. Not sure why you brought Jesus into this, unless you have more to add about Him?
    Peace to you!

    If anyone makes the assistance of grace to believe the gospel depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" - Council of Orange

  3. #228
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    Re: Church influenced by culture and mysticism

    Let me see if I can Athanasius to return for this reply a little late:

    I stated: The flesh or the oldman is not a state, it is a basic inherent feature (the nature) of all who are children of wrath.
    In regard to:

    Ephesians 2:3 scripture

    Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.


    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post

    The question is: is it the nature we were created with, or a corruption of the nature we were created with? I vote that it isn't a corruption, but is the expression of our nature in a state of separation from God.
    How is it that Adam sinned and was condemned while he was in the garden with God if this is the case.
    (Obviously the sin causing death and condemnation, changed the relationship also barring man from eternal life)

    I believe mans original nature was corrupted, because Adam was righteous/blameless/without sin/not condemned before he sinned. He was not a child of wrath.
    Peace to you!

    If anyone makes the assistance of grace to believe the gospel depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" - Council of Orange

  4. #229
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    Re: Church influenced by culture and mysticism

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    How is it that Adam sinned and was condemned while he was in the garden with God if this is the case.
    (Obviously the sin causing death and condemnation, changed the relationship also barring man from eternal life)

    I believe mans original nature was corrupted, because Adam was righteous/blameless/without sin/not condemned before he sinned. He was not a child of wrath.
    He made a choice, and we deal with the consequences of that choice, which are now exacerbated.

  5. #230
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    Re: Church influenced by culture and mysticism

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    He made a choice, and we deal with the consequences of that choice, which are now exacerbated.
    Can you or I ever be as Adam was, without death or decay upon us from our conception?
    Or do you also believe as Noeb, that Adam was mortal (subject to death and already dying) before he ate from the tree?
    Peace to you!

    If anyone makes the assistance of grace to believe the gospel depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" - Council of Orange

  6. #231
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    Re: Church influenced by culture and mysticism

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    Can you or I ever be as Adam was, without death or decay upon us from our conception?
    Or do you also believe as Noeb, that Adam was mortal (subject to death and already dying) before he ate from the tree?
    I believe they were mortal; immortality / eternal life was always step #2.

  7. #232

    Re: Church influenced by culture and mysticism

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    Can you or I ever be as Adam was, without death or decay upon us from our conception? ...
    Compare this description of a few believers who were immersed in Y'SHUA MESSIAH, new creations:
    1 John 3:2-3 - Dear friends, now we are children of - Bible Gateway

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%203:2-3


    2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, ..

  8. #233
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    Re: Church influenced by culture and mysticism

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    I believe they were mortal; immortality / eternal life was always step #2.
    What I am really looking for is not "because this had to happen" but what Adam's reality WAS.
    He was not dying, or decaying before he sinned. He was a living soul given a choice to continue to live or die.

    True or untrue?
    Peace to you!

    If anyone makes the assistance of grace to believe the gospel depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" - Council of Orange

  9. #234
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    Re: Church influenced by culture and mysticism

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    What I am really looking for is not "because this had to happen" but what Adam's reality WAS.
    He was not dying, or decaying before he sinned. He was a living soul given a choice to continue to live or die.

    True or untrue?
    Mortality doesn't require that we're dying, or decaying, but as far as I understand what you're saying I'd agree.

  10. #235
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    Re: Church influenced by culture and mysticism

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    Mortality doesn't require that we're dying, or decaying, but as far as I understand what you're saying I'd agree.
    This chipping away is giving me a bit of a headache, for sure.
    Peace to you!

    If anyone makes the assistance of grace to believe the gospel depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" - Council of Orange

  11. #236
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    Re: Church influenced by culture and mysticism

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    This chipping away is giving me a bit of a headache, for sure.
    Well, so far I don't know what you're trying to get at, so keep at it

  12. #237
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    Re: Church influenced by culture and mysticism

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffcraig View Post
    Compare this description of a few believers who were immersed in Y'SHUA MESSIAH, new creations:
    1 John 3:2-3 - Dear friends, now we are children of - Bible Gateway

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%203:2-3


    2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, ..
    Oh yeah...looking forward to the future, certainly...until then, we are creatures from the onset of our being what?
    Peace to you!

    If anyone makes the assistance of grace to believe the gospel depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" - Council of Orange

  13. #238

    Re: Church influenced by culture and mysticism

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    Oh yeah...looking forward to the future, certainly...until then, we are creatures from the onset of our being what?
    According to GALATIANS, key word "pernicious",
    and
    EPHESIANS 2,
    and
    REVELATION

    concerning all mankind, the whole world --- everyone is subject to the prince of the power of the air (evil and wicked and doomed because of sin )
    without repentance always separate from YHWH and opposed to Y'SHUA MESSIAH,

    EXCEPT FOR those who are / become/ REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB OF YHWH.(JESUS, the PERFECT SACRIFICE for all mankinds sins once for all time) ... (with further descriptions throughout TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and NEW TESTAMENT of those who are blameless, whose sins are not held against them, who become NEW CREATIONS, who are called and chosen and set apart (HOLY) by YHWH HIMSELF for HIS PURPOSE, those who are "BORN AGAIN" by the will of the FATHER in HEAVEN - NOT by the will of the flesh, nor of man, but by the FATHER HIMSELF....

    and probably , perhaps as many as 30 or many more even, descriptions from YHWH'S WORD (i.e. ALL TRUE)

    ------------
    As in the first century, only a few are born again, immersed in Y'SHUA, set apart, holy and blameless before YHWH TODAY,
    as mankind has not changed. The world has not changed (for the better, at all),
    and society is still completely pernicious (per GALATIANS and all the rest of YHWH'S WORD),
    so
    there are few examples anywhere to see the NEW LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS as GIVEN FREELY BY YHWH in HIM.

    (lots of fakes though, as JESUS SAYS)

  14. #239
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    Re: Church influenced by culture and mysticism

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    They did indeed. Today, they would be labeled pelagian heretics, and taught man is able/no sin nature.
    I read more about this belief system and honestly there is no dependency on God to do good or make moral decisions or to not sin. It is not a walking in the Spirit belief system.

    Throwing that out there as an interlude.
    Peace to you!

    If anyone makes the assistance of grace to believe the gospel depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" - Council of Orange

  15. #240
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    Re: Church influenced by culture and mysticism

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    Maybe it would be easier to see that being guilty and being dead are not feelings but realities
    I have no idea what that means. There's no change in nature when guilty. So while it might be easier if I believed that, I don't. I've been given no reason from scripture to believe this.

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