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Thread: In a Post-Trib Rapture do the Jewish Remnant Participate?

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    In a Post-Trib Rapture do the Jewish Remnant Participate?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I believe that a Jewish remnant of believers in Christ will be raptured to meet Christ as he descends from heaven. They will be glorified and receive new immortal bodies, together with Christian remnants from all the nations, at the coming of Christ.

    There is a lot written in the bible about the Jewish remnant that survives after these days. Is there actually any biblical support to prove this claim here? Is the majority of what Post-tribs believe?

    How do you deal with all the passages to the contrary to this doctrine?
    Do you have any prooftexts to support this doctrine?


    Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a[a] Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being first fruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit,[d] for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    It seems clear to me that these people are still in mortal bodies.

    How about here?

    Zech 13:9
    And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

    Does the bible mention anything here about the Jewish remnant being caught up in the sky to meet Jesus in the Air and being given Glorified bodies?

    Zech 14:1
    Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
    5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the holy ones with thee.

    Why are these people saved? Why must they flee? Why aren't they raptured with Gentile church at the Coming of Jesus?

    Romans 11:1
    I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
    3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.


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    Re: In a Post-Trib Rapture do the Jewish Remnant Participate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    There is a lot written in the bible about the Jewish remnant that survives after these days. Is there actually any biblical support to prove this claim here? Is the majority of what Post-tribs believe?

    How do you deal with all the passages to the contrary to this doctrine?
    Do you have any prooftexts to support this doctrine?


    For clarity sake... Are you asking if there is any biblical proof that the "jewish remnant in Christ" will participate in the rapture?

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    Re: In a Post-Trib Rapture do the Jewish Remnant Participate?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    For clarity sake... Are you asking if there is any biblical proof that the "jewish remnant in Christ" will participate in the rapture?
    Yes that was the claim so i'm asking if there is any proof text to support this idea, I mean the Jewish remnant who died in Christ(over the last 2k years) and the Jewish remnant that are alive when Jesus comes the second time after the GT?.

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    Re: In a Post-Trib Rapture do the Jewish Remnant Participate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Yes that was the claim so i'm asking if there is any proof text to support this idea
    Well, I can think of several... but for starters.

    Paul, who was apart of the "jewish remnant in Christ" included himself in the possibility of being raptured. He used the pronoun "we" which by necessity included himself

    1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


    1 Thess 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

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    Re: In a Post-Trib Rapture do the Jewish Remnant Participate?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Well, I can think of several... but for starters.

    Paul, who was apart of the "jewish remnant in Christ" included himself in the possibility of being raptured. He used the pronoun "we" which by necessity included himself

    1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


    1 Thess 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
    You have already shown me this debate is going to be Far far more interesting then i Realized

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    Re: In a Post-Trib Rapture do the Jewish Remnant Participate?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Well, I can think of several... but for starters.

    Paul, who was apart of the "jewish remnant in Christ" included himself in the possibility of being raptured. He used the pronoun "we" which by necessity included himself

    1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


    1 Thess 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
    Yes.., he does it here also....,

    . 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: In a Post-Trib Rapture do the Jewish Remnant Participate?

    Yes we are all one and Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise

    Galatians 3:26-29
    26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abrahamís seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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    Re: In a Post-Trib Rapture do the Jewish Remnant Participate?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Well, I can think of several... but for starters.

    Paul, who was apart of the "jewish remnant in Christ" included himself in the possibility of being raptured. He used the pronoun "we" which by necessity included himself

    1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


    1 Thess 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
    To me it seems like Paul believed this event Could indeed happen during his lifetime. But under the post-trib supposition that the GT must come first. Since Revelations wasn't written all Paul would know about this *precondition* is the book of Daniel Chap 7 and 12 and of course the Olive discourse. So in this case in Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
    Do you believe Paul now thought this deliverance would be the rapture?

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    Re: In a Post-Trib Rapture do the Jewish Remnant Participate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    There is a lot written in the bible about the Jewish remnant that survives after these days. Is there actually any biblical support to prove this claim here? Is the majority of what Post-tribs believe?
    Thanks for asking! I know it's something we've been discussing. And I'd love to hear how others on this particular forum view it. I see the remnant of Israel as meaning not one thing, but several different things, depending on the context.

    1) There is the remnant of Israel that survives divine judgments, such as the Babylonian Judgment. Many Hebrews were killed in that judgment, and yet God ensured that many would survive as well. They are a "remnant."
    2) There is the believing remnant--the faithful remnant. Israel is known historically to be a wavering people--failing over the long run in their covenant with God, the majority often turning to sin and apostasy. The remnant would be those who, like Elijah, continued to obey God's Law and God's word in the midst of this Hebrew apostasy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    How do you deal with all the passages to the contrary to this doctrine?
    Do you have any prooftexts to support this doctrine?
    First let me try to get clarified what you're asking. Are you saying that we should prove that a remnant of Jews will survive Armageddon and the end of the age, to enter into a new age? If so, I would have to agree with that position. The proof texts would be the Abrahamic Covenant and the view of the Prophets regarding the Age to Come, or the Messianic Kingdom. In these texts God has placed His word of promise concerning the continuing existence of Israel, and on into the Age to Come, the Messianic Age. So I believe that a Jewish remnant must survive the time when Christ comes--the Battle of Armageddon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a[a] Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being first fruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit,[d] for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    It seems clear to me that these people are still in mortal bodies.


    I think this is a vision of a glorified remnant of Jews, Christians who have received new immortal bodies. They are seen to hold a position of authority on Mt. Zion, where Christ's Millennial reign in Israel will be centered.


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    Re: In a Post-Trib Rapture do the Jewish Remnant Participate?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    [COLOR=#333333]Thanks for asking! I know it's something we've been discussing. And I'd love to hear how others on this particular forum view it. I see the remnant of Israel as meaning not one thing, but several different things, depending on the context.
    We have alot of Disagreements but i do enjoy hearing your opinions and i honestly don't want to misrepresent what you believe, this question has already turned out to be a monster i didn't expect but overall this just gets me excited!

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    Re: In a Post-Trib Rapture do the Jewish Remnant Participate?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Well, I can think of several... but for starters.

    Paul, who was apart of the "jewish remnant in Christ" included himself in the possibility of being raptured. He used the pronoun "we" which by necessity included himself

    1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


    1 Thess 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
    Paul is not Jewish. He was a Israelite. From Benjamin.

    Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

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    Re: In a Post-Trib Rapture do the Jewish Remnant Participate?

    Quote Originally Posted by T W Taylor View Post
    Paul is not Jewish.
    Ummmm.... not quite...

    Paul was a Jew

    Acts 21:39 But Paul said, "I am a Jew from Tarsus, in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city; and I implore you, permit me to speak to the people."

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    Re: In a Post-Trib Rapture do the Jewish Remnant Participate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    To me it seems like Paul believed this event Could indeed happen during his lifetime. But under the post-trib supposition that the GT must come first. Since Revelations wasn't written all Paul would know about this *precondition* is the book of Daniel Chap 7 and 12 and of course the Olive discourse. So in this case in Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
    Do you believe Paul now thought this deliverance would be the rapture?
    Daniel 12 speaks of both the resurrection of the dead as well as the deliverance of his people from the hands of the Antichirst spoken of in Chapter 11.

    Paul in 1 Cor 15 said that the rapture was a "mystery" which meant it had not been previously revealed to the saints. However, Paul indicated that the rapture would take place in conjunction with the resurrection of the dead. He included himself as a potential candidate to be raptured.

    Do you believe the resurrection of the dead happens at the same time as the rapture?

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    Re: In a Post-Trib Rapture do the Jewish Remnant Participate?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Daniel 12 speaks of both the resurrection of the dead as well as the deliverance of his people from the hands of the Antichirst spoken of in Chapter 11.

    Paul in 1 Cor 15 said that the rapture was a "mystery" which meant it had not been previously revealed to the saints. However, Paul indicated that the rapture would take place in conjunction with the resurrection of the dead. He included himself as a potential candidate to be raptured.

    Do you believe the resurrection of the dead happens at the same time as the rapture?
    No i don't, I don't believe the Resurrection in Rev 20 is the rapture.

    I believe the resurrection that occurs at the rapture is a resurrection *out of the dead* Jesus was the *firstborn of the grave*.

    And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    I don't believe any of the Resurrections at the end of the age are similar to this. Either the first for the Martyrs (specifically) or the second Resurrection. To me it seems like these people are Just raised not instantly changed. But i'm willing to listen to arguments otherwise.

    But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

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    Re: In a Post-Trib Rapture do the Jewish Remnant Participate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Yes that was the claim so i'm asking if there is any proof text to support this idea, I mean the Jewish remnant who died in Christ(over the last 2k years) and the Jewish remnant that are alive when Jesus comes the second time after the GT?.
    The Jewish saints will be raised from the dead at the same time that all believers are raised from the dead.

    Jesus said anyone who believes in Him would have everlasting life and that He would "raise them up on the last day". Those that believe in Jesus would be Christians.

    John 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

    Likewise, when Lazarus, a JEWISH man died, his sister said "I know that he will be raised on the last day".

    John 11:24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

    This means that BOTH Lazarus ( a jewish man) and all believers will be raised together at the "Last day".

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