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Thread: Sinless Perfection

  1. #1
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    Sinless Perfection

    I have been coming across more and more people lately on multiple Bible discussion forums who claim to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect (exactly as Jesus is) 100% of the time. I believe that such people are suffering from a terminal case of self-righteousness (1 John 1:8-10). Has anyone else here come across such delusional people?
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Re: Sinless Perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I have been coming across more and more people lately on multiple Bible discussion forums who claim to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect (exactly as Jesus is) 100% of the time. I believe that such people are suffering from a terminal case of self-righteousness (1 John 1:8-10). Has anyone else here come across such delusional people?
    This doctrine really isn't that far "out there". Catholics for example believe we are made to be righteous, and then that state of being must be maintained by works. Any form of sinless perfection though will come from the thought of being made to be righteous as opposed to being declared to be righteous.

    All of Methodism at one point believed in a kind of sinless perfection (entire sanctification) as a second distinct work of grace subsequent to salvation.
    Watchinginawe

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    Re: Sinless Perfection

    Philippians 3

    1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you.

    2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; 3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, 4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

    7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

    12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

    17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. 18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
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    Re: Sinless Perfection

    I agree, Dan. Glorification hasn't happened yet. All I need to do is talk to one acquaintance with said individual and the house of cards will come down.

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    Re: Sinless Perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    I agree, Dan. Glorification hasn't happened yet. All I need to do is talk to one acquaintance with said individual and the house of cards will come down.
    Amen! Absolute perfection for us will not become a reality until Christ returns and then we will be made perfect with Christ when we receive our glorified bodies. We often think of "perfect" as absolutely perfect, yet the Greek word "teleioi" is also used to refer to the maturity of an adult, which is the end or aim to which the child points. Thus it denotes those who have attained the full development of innate powers, in contrast to those who are still in the undeveloped state (children).
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Re: Sinless Perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I have been coming across more and more people lately on multiple Bible discussion forums who claim to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect (exactly as Jesus is) 100% of the time. I believe that such people are suffering from a terminal case of self-righteousness (1 John 1:8-10). Has anyone else here come across such delusional people?
    Sure. Here. These have always existed in the church. Gnostics thought they were sinless too. Nothing new.

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    Re: Sinless Perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by watchinginawe View Post
    This doctrine really isn't that far "out there". Catholics for example believe we are made to be righteous, and then that state of being must be maintained by works. Any form of sinless perfection though will come from the thought of being made to be righteous as opposed to being declared to be righteous.

    All of Methodism at one point believed in a kind of sinless perfection (entire sanctification) as a second distinct work of grace subsequent to salvation.
    Yes, Roman Catholics seem to reject "imputed" righteousness for "imparted" righteousness and they also confuse justification with ongoing sanctification. Thank God I escaped the bondage of Roman Catholicism many years ago!
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Re: Sinless Perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    Philippians 3

    12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.
    There's two meanings for perfect here. One means finality/resurrected/glorified which we have not attained, the other means mature which we are commanded to be and it says some were. In the English it's a flat out contradiction.

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    Re: Sinless Perfection

    I see it here, and in the church often. I believe part of the issue is that these folks don't really understand who they are and what sin is. When we consider anything outside of faith is sin, it brings a new meaning to it.

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    Re: Sinless Perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    There's two meanings for perfect here. One means finality/resurrected/glorified which we have not attained, the other means mature which we are commanded to be and it says some were. In the English it's a flat out contradiction.
    I was wondering about that and thought it sounded like a contradiction at first glance. Verse 12 - "..not that I have already become perfect.." Verse 15 - "..as many as are perfect.."

    In verse 12, Greek scholar AT Robertson comments - "Or am already made perfect (h hdh teteleiwmai). Perfect passive indicative (state of completion) of teleiow, old verb from teleio and that from telo (end). Paul pointedly denies that he has reached a spiritual impasse of non-development." In verse 15, he comments - "Here the term teleioi means relative perfection, not the absolute perfection."

    So depending on the context, "perfect" may mean "absolute perfection" or "relative perfection," which is in regards to maturity or completeness and not necessarily absolute perfection/sinless perfection. Very interesting!
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Re: Sinless Perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    There's two meanings for perfect here. One means finality/resurrected/glorified which we have not attained, the other means mature which we are commanded to be and it says some were. In the English it's a flat out contradiction.
    Yes could have been a better translation ... but the point is ... that we haven't been perfected so those who are mature realize that ... those who are mature have the attitude that they haven't been perfected yet ...
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    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

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    Re: Sinless Perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I was wondering about that and thought it sounded like a contradiction at first glance. Verse 12 - "..not that I have already become perfect.." Verse 15 - "..as many are are perfect.."

    In verse 12, Greek scholar AT Robertson comments - "Or am already made perfect (h hdh teteleiwmai). Perfect passive indicative (state of completion) of teleiow, old verb from teleio and that from telo (end). Paul pointedly denies that he has reached a spiritual impasse of non-development." In verse 15, he comments - "Here the term teleioi means relative perfection, not the absolute perfection."

    So depending on the context, "perfect" may mean "absolute perfection" or "relative perfection," which is in regards to maturity or completeness and not necessarily absolute perfection/sinless perfection. Very interesting!
    Interesting indeed. Thanks Noeb!
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    Re: Sinless Perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    Yes could have been a better translation ... but the point is ... that we haven't been perfected so those who are mature realize that ... those who are mature have the attitude that they haven't been perfected yet ...
    Totally agree, perfection is in immortality. I don't know any flesh that ever lived in perfection except Melchisedec.

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    Re: Sinless Perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I have been coming across more and more people lately on multiple Bible discussion forums who claim to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect (exactly as Jesus is) 100% of the time. I believe that such people are suffering from a terminal case of self-righteousness (1 John 1:8-10). Has anyone else here come across such delusional people?
    Did Jesus ever bragged about His sinless perfection?

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    Re: Sinless Perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Totally agree, perfection is in immortality. I don't know any flesh that ever lived in perfection except Melchisedec.
    Perhaps Enoch would also qualify?

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