Sinless Perfection

[justbyfaith]

In post #64 I asked you to define "willfully" and you replied with a non-answer in post #68. So let's forget about the theoretical part and move to some practical examples.

#1. What about people who are alcoholist or drug addict and their body is screaming for the substance they are addicted to? They want to break with the sinful addiction and they struggle, wrestle and fight [Hebr 12:4] may fail xx times but finally they overcome. In that process of falling and rising, does the alcoholist everytime when he gives into the temptation and takes a drink (while perfectly knowing it is wrong and feels bad about it) does he do that willfully?

#2. Anger, the wrong kind, emphasis added. Sometimes I am irritated, often without even realizing it, and when I realize that I am I can not always put my finger on why I am irritated. Then something small and insignificant happens and I lash out verbally feeling bad about it [the rebelling conscience] the same moment, I even don't want to exclude the possibility that the rebelling conscience precedes the lashing out, it's all happening in a split of a second. I am sure I am not describing an exclusive or unknown phenomenon The question is, how much is willfully?

In example #1, the sacrifice of Christ doesn't avail for them (in bringing forgiveness) until they get the victory. It will avail for them to help them to get the victory.

In example #2, God is calling the person to exercise more temperance or self-control in their behaviour (by allowng the Spirit of God to produce this fruit in their life) and they may not find forgiveness until after they find the victory over their anger.

[justbyfaith]

But where does that entail sinless perfection?

I am actually not primarily a proponent of what you would call "sinless perfection". That is a term coined by the opponents of the doctrine of entire sanctification, which is defined as:

The element of sin dwells in our mortal flesh, but it does not have to have any kind of control over who we are, or anything we say and/or do, because sin as a factor can be rendered dead (Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8). So it is not that we are sinless (i.e. without indwelling sin) it is that we are in a state of being where we do not have to commit sin. Because the element of sin (while it remains within us) is rendered dead, I don't have to obey it in what it wants me to do. It is rendered inoperative.

[Athanasius]

I am actually not primarily a proponent of what you would call "sinless perfection". That is a term coined by the opponents of the doctrine of entire sanctification, which is defined as:

The element of sin dwells in our mortal flesh, but it does not have to have any kind of control over who we are, or anything we say and/or do, because sin as a factor can be rendered dead (Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8). So it is not that we are sinless (i.e. without indwelling sin) it is that we are in a state of being where we do not have to commit sin. Because the element of sin (while it remains within us) is rendered dead, I don't have to obey it in what it wants me to do. It is rendered inoperative.

For my purposes I consider 'sinless perfection' to mean the view that someone can live their entire life without sinning, irrespective of 'sin nature' and / or it's being dead. Would you say that's accurate to your view?

[chad]

A person is saved by believing in Christ Jesus, the one who God sent to pay for sin. They need to realize they are sinners and repent of their sin and turn from it. This is the gospel message. But imo, sins also committed in ignorance are also forgiven.

In the OT, the high priest offered sacrifices for sins committed in ignorance (Lev 4:2-3). Jesus is our High Priest in the New Covenant.

A person can't get saved by repenting of sins committed in ignorance?

[justbyfaith]

For my purposes I consider 'sinless perfection' to mean the view that someone can live their entire life without sinning, irrespective of 'sin nature' and / or it's being dead. Would you say that's accurate to your view?

No, because all men are born in sin, conceived in sin.

I would say that someone can live the rest of their lives without committing sin; and I would not call that view "sinless perfection" (as that is misleading and an attempt to deter people from the doctrine through a knowledge of 1 John 1:8), I would call that view by its biblical name, "entire sanctification" (see 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Romans 4:21). Now you may want to read those verses and realize that you have to define them somehow in your theology in a different way than the plain meaning of the text would dictate, if you are going to deny that God is able to perfect His people in sanctification (see also Hebrews 10:14 KJV).

[justbyfaith]

A person is saved by believing in Christ Jesus, the one who God sent to pay for sin. They need to realize they are sinners and repent of their sin and turn from it. This is the gospel message. But imo, sins also committed in ignorance are also forgiven.

In the OT, the high priest offered sacrifices for sins committed in ignorance (Lev 4:2-3). Jesus is our High Priest in the New Covenant.

Repentance is a commitment to Christ that you are going to read His word with the intention of doing what it says (see James 1:22-24). 1 John 1:9 is the example in the NT given as the antitype for sacrifices made for sins committed in ignorance. If you are a real believer, confession means you will not commit those sins again once sins committed in ignorance are discovered.

And of course no one is denying that faith in God's blood is key to forgiveness in our lives. Look at 1 John 1:7. Does the blood of Jesus fail to cleane us from all sin? I think not.

[chad]

Imo, repentance is for the forgiveness of sin. When you repent, you are acknowledging that sin and want to turn away from it. However, imo it does not mean a person cannot commit those sins again which they have repented from.


(Acts 2:38 KJV) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

::

(Acts 3:19 KJV) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

::

(Acts 26:20 KJV) But showed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

::

Can a person go back and be entanged again in corruption. Imo, according to 2 Peter 2:18-22, yes.


(2 Pet 2:18 KJV) For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.


(2 Pet 2:19 KJV) While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

(2 Pet 2:20 KJV) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

(2 Pet 2:21 KJV) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

(2 Pet 2:22 KJV) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Repentance is a commitment to Christ that you are going to read His word with the intention of doing what it says (see James 1:22-24). 1 John 1:9 is the example in the NT given as the antitype for sacrifices made for sins committed in ignorance. If you are a real believer, confession means you will not commit those sins again once sins committed in ignorance are discovered.

And of course no one is denying that faith in God's blood is key to forgiveness in our lives. Look at 1 John 1:7. Does the blood of Jesus fail to cleane us from all sin? I think not.

[Athanasius]

No, because all men are born in sin, conceived in sin.

I would say that someone can live the rest of their lives without committing sin; and I would not call that view "sinless perfection" (as that is misleading and an attempt to deter people from the doctrine through a knowledge of 1 John 1:8), I would call that view by its biblical name, "entire sanctification" (see 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Romans 4:21). Now you may want to read those verses and realize that you have to define them somehow in your theology in a different way than the plain meaning of the text would dictate, if you are going to deny that God is able to perfect His people in sanctification (see also Hebrews 10:14 KJV).

That's exactly what I mean, actually.

[ProDeo]

In post #64 I asked you to define "willfully" and you replied with a non-answer in post #68. So let's forget about the theoretical part and move to some practical examples.

#1. What about people who are alcoholist or drug addict and their body is screaming for the substance they are addicted to? They want to break with the sinful addiction and they struggle, wrestle and fight [Hebr 12:4] may fail xx times but finally they overcome. In that process of falling and rising, does the alcoholist everytime when he gives into the temptation and takes a drink (while perfectly knowing it is wrong and feels bad about it) does he do that willfully?

In example #1, the sacrifice of Christ doesn't avail for them (in bringing forgiveness) until they get the victory. It will avail for them to help them to get the victory.

So unwanted failure in one specific area is going to outweigh the xx weaknesses a new creature in Christ overcame during life?

#2. Anger, the wrong kind, emphasis added. Sometimes I am irritated, often without even realizing it, and when I realize that I am I can not always put my finger on why I am irritated. Then something small and insignificant happens and I lash out verbally feeling bad about it [the rebelling conscience] the same moment, I even don't want to exclude the possibility that the rebelling conscience precedes the lashing out, it's all happening in a split of a second. I am sure I am not describing an exclusive or unknown phenomenon The question is, how much is willfully?

In example #2, God is calling the person to exercise more temperance or self-control in their behaviour (by allowng the Spirit of God to produce this fruit in their life) and they may not find forgiveness until after they find the victory over their anger.

Second time you don't address "willfully".

Nothing in both examples is done willfully.

In both examples Hebr 12:4 is central.

[Noeb]

The inclination that is in us making us prone to desire to sin, whether that inclination be dead or alive.

That's our God given nature. The problem is not nature. That's a Gnostic belief, not Christian.

[Brother Mark]

Did I say "immediately"?

Of course for the conscience that needs a boost, the law can be a help.

I think that Paul's conscince was capable of accusing or else excusing him even apart from the tenth commandment. What Romans 7:7-11 is talking about is the WET PAINT PRINCIPLE...sin's capacity to take the law and use it to bring us into temptation. It is not necessarily saying that the law is necessary for us to know the diffrrence between right and wrong...see Romans 2:14-16.

We can know some right and wrong without the law. But for Paul, he had no problem with coveting before the Law taught him it was wrong. I think we need to be careful giving so much credence to conscience. There are limits to it and Paul is a good example of that.

[Brother Mark]

Maybe he was a "false brother" (2 Corinthians 11:26) before that and when he repented he became a genuine brother.

I don't think so because the Lord's discipline is for His children and not for the unbeliever. Its possible he was an unbeliever I suppose. But IMO, the situation seems to be he was a believer, with little evidence in 1 Cor. but the discipline prescribed by the Lord and Paul, worked as it was supposed to work and the man repented.

[mailmandan]

What I hear you saying is that if I commit a one-time sin it doesn't matter very much because it is not the HABITUAL practice of sin. So then the sin that I am thinking about doing in a few minutes I can do without any qualm of conscience because after all it is not in the habitual sense that I will be doing it but it will only be a one-time event.

That is not what I'm saying. You seem to only hear what you want to hear.

I therefore have a free reign to commit sin as long as it isn't "habitual". I can gamble one day, watch porn the next, and the next day actually capitulate with a hooker--because each of these things are just one-time events and actually not related to each other in the sense of they are not a habit because they are only one-time events in my life. As long as I variate my sins I can go back to gambling the next day and it is not a habit because I placed other sins in between...I am not saying that people consciously think this way, but they do subconsciously. And they do so because of this doctrine that we ought not to deal with sin as severley as cutting off your hand when it offends you because it is only "habitual sin" that we have to worry about...and therefore also in this doctrine it takes more time to identify the dangerous sins because you have to practice it for a while before you actually admit to yourself that it was a "habitual sin" all along. Now I suggest reading Proverbs 5:22 which tells me the same thing as John 8:34 in a slightly better way.

You seem determined to label everyone else as either a habitual sinner or part time sinner who is determined to get away with as much sin as possible as long as it's not too much, yet imply that you are basically sinless.

[mailmandan]

I would say that someone can live the rest of their lives without committing sin; and I would not call that view "sinless perfection" (as that is misleading and an attempt to deter people from the doctrine through a knowledge of 1 John 1:8), I would call that view by its biblical name, "entire sanctification" (see 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Romans 4:21).

Why don't you give us a list of names of the people who have reached entire sanctification in their lifetime. I can't name one.

[justbyfaith]

Why don't you give us a list of names of the people who have reached entire sanctification in their lifetime. I can't name one.

I've known a few, but I can't remember their names. They were elderly people who attended the Nazarene Church that I attended. I believe the apostle John might be a good example from the Bible however.