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Thread: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

  1. #1

    Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    I've dealt with this before, but I want to visit it again. I believe I'm getting a better picture now. Jesus was addressing *Israel* specifically. He was still under the era of Law during his earthly ministry. So Israel was in sight, and not the outreach to the Gentiles just yet.

    So Jesus described the future of Israel in the NT period. They would reject him as their Messiah--all but a relative narrow band of followers, who later would be called "Christians." Israel, among the majority, would continue in sin, even while they were still under the covenant of Law. They would perform in a religious sense externally, but not inwardly. They would perform the works of the Law, but not produce true spirituality.

    And thus, Jesus predicted that their whole system of worship would come down. The temple--the center of their worship, and the center of the Law--would come down. The covenant would be smashed. This didn't mean, however, that Christ was rejecting Israel for all time. It only meant that he was rejecting those who were rejecting him. Those who would accept him would be saved.

    And so, the Olivet Discourse includes both unbelievers and believers in Israel. So when he talked about the coming of the Son of Man--his own coming with his Kingdom, he talked about final judgment against both Israel and the enemies of Israel among the nations. And he talked about the salvation not just of Christians in Israel but also of Christians who would later emerge from other nations.

    But as I said, this Discourse was at that time largely focused on Israel. It did, necessarily, include the Christians in Israel because 1) Jesus was talking to his own disciples, and 2) any discussion of Israel would have to include the faithful in Israel.

    So Jesus' coming as the "Son of Man" depicted the coming of his Kingdom, as we can see in Daniel 7. The coming of the Son of Man is directly associated with the coming of the Messianic Kingdom. And that in turn is directly associated by the Prophets with the salvation of national Israel from hostile nations--a time when Israel shall never be destroyed again.

    So how did Jesus explain the end of sin in Israel to allow this final salvation of Israel? In his own generation a judgment would begin against Israel--the judgment of 70 AD. And this would constitute a "time of great distress" for the Jews throughout the NT age, up and including the end of the age. The wicked in Israel would be destroyed. The sinners in Israel would be continuously judged until the time came when final destruction would be brought about at the coming of the Son of Man.

    But this coming to save Israel from the hostile nations necessarily included a faithful remnant of Christians in Israel. This was a word for *all Israel* in NT history, and had to include Christians among the Jews. What Jesus was basically saying is that the wicked in Israel would be judged, making room for a remnant of Jews who would convert, like the Christians, to Christianity. And this would bring about the salvation of the entire nation at his coming.

    So where does the Rapture of the Church fit into this scenario? Inasmuch as this Discourse is largely directed at Israel it seems to exclude the Gentile Church. But it really doesn't. It's just pre-Christian. Later, Jesus would give his Great Commission, and that would automatically include Gentile Christians in the promise God made regarding Israel. If Israel's Christians would be saved, enabling the nation to be saved, then Christians in other lands would also be saved, enabling their own nations to be saved!

    Thus, the gathering of "God's elect" is for Jesus a reference to both the honoring of the Christian remnant as well as a reference to the salvation of the nation they represent. I think we divide the Rapture of the Church up from its intended target, which is the restoration of the nations to God at the coming of Christ.

    This Discourse seems to address the need for God to save entire nations, and does not deal in particular with what happens to the Christian remnants of nations in the world. I think Acts 1 may come closer to describing how Jesus comes back specifically for Christians. But I'm still researching this. Let me know what you think?

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    So where does the Rapture of the Church fit into this scenario? Inasmuch as this Discourse is largely directed at Israel it seems to exclude the Gentile Church. But it really doesn't. It's just pre-Christian. Later, Jesus would give his Great Commission, and that would automatically include Gentile Christians in the promise God made regarding Israel. If Israel's Christians would be saved, enabling the nation to be saved, then Christians in other lands would also be saved, enabling their own nations to be saved!
    Thus, the gathering of "God's elect" is for Jesus a reference of both the honoring of the Christian remnant as well as a reference to the salvation of the nation they represent. I think we divide the Rapture of the Church up from its intended target, which is the restoration of the nations to God at the coming of Christ. Let me know what you think?
    I think this is an assumption to make post-trib possible. But thats fine, i just want to point out that what Jesus taught about the regathering of Israel at the end of the age wasn't *new information* This same doctrine is taught all throughout the OT and never is it called or described in the same manner as the rapture as taught by Paul. I thinks is a huge disservice to both Jesus, Paul and all the OT prophets who speak of these events to assume (with no actual explicit scripture) these two events (The regathering of Israel at the end of the age as explained in a host of OT prophets) (the rapture as mentioned by Paul alone) as the same event just to make post-trib a viable doctrine if its not explicit in the bible why try to change the bible to support it?

  3. #3

    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I think this is an assumption to make post-trib possible. But thats fine, i just want to point out that what Jesus taught about the regathering of Israel at the end of the age wasn't *new information* This same doctrine is taught all throughout the OT and never is it called or described in the same manner as the rapture as taught by Paul. I thinks is a huge disservice to both Jesus, Paul and all the OT prophets who speak of these events to assume (with no actual explicit scripture) these two events (The regathering of Israel at the end of the age as explained in a host of OT prophets) (the rapture as mentioned by Paul alone) as the same event just to make post-trib a viable doctrine if its not explicit in the bible why try to change the bible to support it?
    Yes, you said it much better than me (with the exception of the Pretrib part). I am saying that this was typical language of Israel's restoration. What sets this apart is that this is a reference to the *final restoration* of Israel. That also is talked about in the OT Prophets. We don't have a whole lot of basis for what we now see as the Rapture of the Church. But we do have the resurrection of the saints at the coming of Christ with his Kingdom. And we have the symbols of Enoch and Elijah, as well as the symbol of Jesus himself. The whole idea of eternal life is suggested from the beginning of man in Genesis. And so, I don't think it's new or unusual to believe there is foundation for Paul's doctrine of the Rapture, which has to do with our assumption of eternal bodies.

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, you said it much better than me (with the exception of the Pretrib part). I am saying that this was typical language of Israel's restoration. What sets this apart is that this is a reference to the *final restoration* of Israel. That also is talked about in the OT Prophets. We don't have a whole lot of basis for what we now see as the Rapture of the Church. But we do have the resurrection of the saints at the coming of Christ with his Kingdom. And we have the symbols of Enoch and Elijah, as well as the symbol of Jesus himself. The whole idea of eternal life is suggested from the beginning of man in Genesis. And so, I don't think it's new or unusual to believe there is foundation for Paul's doctrine of the Rapture, which has to do with our assumption of eternal bodies.
    Once more idk if i agree with this portrayal of Jesus being Raptured from what i understand this word is never used when describing Jesus accent to the father. http://biblehub.com/greek/726.htm

  5. #5

    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Once more idk if i agree with this portrayal of Jesus being Raptured from what i understand this word is never used when describing Jesus accent to the father. http://biblehub.com/greek/726.htm
    Jesus' being "taken" into heaven, and covered with a cloud, would perhaps be described slightly differently than our being "taken" into heaven and into the clouds. The word for our being taken is a stronger "seized," which might be the case in view of the fact we live in the flesh that is hostile to God.

    Again, I'm saying that Jesus ascended into heaven *for us,* so that *we* might be seized and changed, or glorified, like his own glorious body. He was already qualified to be glorified. He simply went through the process to be glorified for us.

    John 12.28 Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.”

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Be aware that born again Christians, bought by Jesus' blood, Rev 5:9, people from every tribe, race, nation and language; ARE the Israelites of God. Galatians 6:16
    They will be gathered into the holy Land, soon after the Lord's Day of wrath. Isaiah 66:15-21, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Romans 9:24-26
    There is no rapture removal to heaven of any living person. At Jesus' Return those Christians that remain are gathered to Him. 2 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:31

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Be aware that born again Christians, bought by Jesus' blood, Rev 5:9, people from every tribe, race, nation and language; ARE the Israelites of God. Galatians 6:16
    They will be gathered into the holy Land, soon after the Lord's Day of wrath. Isaiah 66:15-21, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Romans 9:24-26
    There is no rapture removal to heaven of any living person. At Jesus' Return those Christians that remain are gathered to Him. 2 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:31
    Are you claiming that Gentiles aren't saved by the blood of Jesus, or are you claiming that the church are the *true Israelites* and that those gathered in these passages are gentile or Jews who have received christ and are now considered Israelites?

  8. #8

    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Be aware that born again Christians, bought by Jesus' blood, Rev 5:9, people from every tribe, race, nation and language; ARE the Israelites of God. Galatians 6:16
    They will be gathered into the holy Land, soon after the Lord's Day of wrath. Isaiah 66:15-21, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Romans 9:24-26
    There is no rapture removal to heaven of any living person. At Jesus' Return those Christians that remain are gathered to Him. 2 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:31
    That sounds like Replacement Theology. I respect that position, but do not hold to it myself. I find it valuable and important to recognize that Israel continues to have a literal place in biblical prophecy. The Church consists of *many nations,* including Israel.

    I do think that as Israel is promised a land, so Gentile nations that become Christian can expect to inherit their own lands as well. In fact, Christianity overall, including all nations, will inherit the earth! I just don't want to leave Israel out of the equation!

    But I agree with you that the Olivet Discourse refers to Jesus' coming which *does* apply both to the Jewish believers and to Gentile believers. The partition between the two groups has been broken down. What Jesus at that time applied to the Jews primarily now, by extension, also applies to the Gentiles. The Christian remnants in all nations constitute "God's elect," along with the Israeli elect. We will all be gathered at Christ's coming! Thank you.

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Are you claiming that Gentiles aren't saved by the blood of Jesus, or are you claiming that the church are the *true Israelites* and that those gathered in these passages are gentile or Jews who have received christ and are now considered Israelites?
    EVERYONE who believes in God and accepts the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, is an Israelite [Overcomer] of God. Simple exegesis!

    It isn't 'replacement theology', but just as Paul says: all who believe are grafted in, along with the Christian Jews. WE Christians from every race, nation and language; are the circumcision Philippians 3:3 are the true sons of God. Romans 9:24-27...only a remnant of [ethnic] Israel shall be saved.

    The only literal place the State of Israel has in Bible prophecy, was their fulfilment of 'the budding of the fig tree'. Now they face judgement/punishment, like every other nation. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    EVERYONE who believes in God and accepts the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, is an Israelite [Overcomer] of God. Simple exegesis!

    It isn't 'replacement theology', but just as Paul says: all who believe are grafted in, along with the Christian Jews. WE Christians from every race, nation and language; are the circumcision Philippians 3:3 are the true sons of God. Romans 9:24-27...only a remnant of [ethnic] Israel shall be saved.

    The only literal place the State of Israel has in Bible prophecy, was their fulfilment of 'the budding of the fig tree'. Now they face judgement/punishment, like every other nation. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7

    Amen!............
    True Truth Exists & Can Be Found.

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    EVERYONE who believes in God and accepts the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, is an Israelite [Overcomer] of God. Simple exegesis!

    It isn't 'replacement theology', but just as Paul says: all who believe are grafted in, along with the Christian Jews. WE Christians from every race, nation and language; are the circumcision Philippians 3:3 are the true sons of God. Romans 9:24-27...only a remnant of [ethnic] Israel shall be saved.

    The only literal place the State of Israel has in Bible prophecy, was their fulfilment of 'the budding of the fig tree'. Now they face judgement/punishment, like every other nation. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7
    I didn't think it was brother why i asked for specifics of what you were saying. So the question would then be in these passage you quoted Isaiah 66:15-21, Ezekiel 34:11-31. Is it the [Ethnic] Israel remnant being gathered or is it those grafted in Christians that are being gathered in these passages?

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I didn't think it was brother why i asked for specifics of what you were saying. So the question would then be in these passage you quoted Isaiah 66:15-21, Ezekiel 34:11-31. Is it the [Ethnic] Israel remnant being gathered or is it those grafted in Christians that are being gathered in these passages?
    If you read those prophesies for yourself, you would know. It is ALL Christians....you still try to keep a separation, when Jesus came the remove the barrier; Ephesians 2:14

    Isaiah 66:18....I am coming to gather peoples of every language, they will come to see My glory.
    Ezekiel 34:...I shall gather My sheep....from every country where they are scattered....You are My flock and I am your God.
    Note that in both of those passages Israel is not mentioned, but in others where Israel is stated, we know that since Jesus came to extend salvation to all who would accept it; then all the unfulfilled prophesies referring to Israel and Judah, now belong to the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    If you read those prophesies for yourself, you would know. It is ALL Christians....you still try to keep a separation, when Jesus came the remove the barrier; Ephesians 2:14

    Isaiah 66:18....I am coming to gather peoples of every language, they will come to see My glory.
    Ezekiel 34:...I shall gather My sheep....from every country where they are scattered....You are My flock and I am your God.
    Note that in both of those passages Israel is not mentioned, but in others where Israel is stated, we know that since Jesus came to extend salvation to all who would accept it; then all the unfulfilled prophesies referring to Israel and Judah, now belong to the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16
    Sorry i didn't make a separation clearly you did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    It isn't 'replacement theology', but just as Paul says: all who believe are grafted in, along with the Christian Jews. WE Christians from every race, nation and language; are the circumcision Philippians 3:3 are the true sons of God. Romans 9:24-27...only a remnant of [ethnic] Israel shall be saved.
    Notice your bold portion.

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    EVERYONE who believes in God and accepts the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, is an Israelite [Overcomer] of God. Simple exegesis!

    It isn't 'replacement theology', but just as Paul says: all who believe are grafted in, along with the Christian Jews. WE Christians from every race, nation and language; are the circumcision Philippians 3:3 are the true sons of God. Romans 9:24-27...only a remnant of [ethnic] Israel shall be saved.

    The only literal place the State of Israel has in Bible prophecy, was their fulfilment of 'the budding of the fig tree'. Now they face judgement/punishment, like every other nation. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7
    There are two things you do not do:

    Php 1:10 « To your proving things that differ; in order that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; »

    and:

    2Ti 2:15 « Be diligent to present thyself approved to God, a workman without cause for shame, rightly dividing [dissecting] the word of truth. »

    Paul warned us not to boast against Israel:

    Rom 11:17 « And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. »

    And that you do, by denying them their heritage.

    Rom 15:8 « Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. (Psa 18:49) »

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Sorry i didn't make a separation clearly you did.

    Notice your bold portion.
    My point, and the truth of scripture, is that there is only one people of God. John 10:16, John 17:2-2, Ephesians 4:4-6
    That people consists of every born again Christian, be they Jew, or whatever.
    Your determination to maintain a separate Israel, shows how it is a tenet of the rapture theory that must be defended at all costs. That cost is: another lie upon the first one.

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