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Thread: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

  1. #61
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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The only way we have to connect the prophesies and make parallels, is to find matching things in them.
    Context and chronology of events are just as important. Finding every passage about the sun going dark and then forcing them all together isn't going to lead to the truth.

    The 'wiping away of all tears', is plainly to happen after the Millennium, because death is also ended then as well. Rev 21:4
    Yes, but the problem remains. In Rev 7, they serve in God's temple. After the Millennium in the NHNE and NJ there is no temple. This alone proves Rev 7 is another event, and this event must precede the time when there is no temple.

    There will be a Temple in Jerusalem during the Millennium, Jesus will reign from. Isaiah 2:2-4
    Of course. The Millennial temple is mentioned many times in the OT.

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Yes, but the problem remains. In Rev 7, they serve in God's temple. After the Millennium in the NHNE and NJ there is no temple. This alone proves Rev 7 is another event, and this event must precede the time when there is no temple.
    I still see Rev 7:15-17 as being during Eternity. Rev 21:22 says there is no Temple, for its Temple was God and the Lamb. The translations differ somewhat, but from the context, that is the better interpretation.
    Actually, re-reading those verses multiple times, I now think perhaps they do fit during the Millennium and verse 17 is a future promise of being led to the water of Life and having every tear wiped away. Fits with Rev 22:1-5 better.

    Revelation 7:1-14 all happens before the Return, soon after the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, which is the great tribulation, [great ordeal; REBible] referred to in Rev 7:14. The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls happen in the last 3 1/2 years before the Return.

  3. #63
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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I still see Rev 7:15-17 as being during Eternity. Rev 21:22 says there is no Temple, for its Temple was God and the Lamb. The translations differ somewhat, but from the context, that is the better interpretation.
    Actually, re-reading those verses multiple times, I now think perhaps they do fit during the Millennium and verse 17 is a future promise of being led to the water of Life and having every tear wiped away. Fits with Rev 22:1-5 better.

    Revelation 7:1-14 all happens before the Return, soon after the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, which is the great tribulation, [great ordeal; REBible] referred to in Rev 7:14. The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls happen in the last 3 1/2 years before the Return.
    I'll just add the lamb leads them to living water while on earth if you remember this passage of in Zech 14 and the fact that the holy ones come *with him* .

    Zech 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I still see Rev 7:15-17 as being during Eternity. Rev 21:22 says there is no Temple, for its Temple was God and the Lamb. The translations differ somewhat, but from the context, that is the better interpretation.
    Actually, re-reading those verses multiple times, I now think perhaps they do fit during the Millennium and verse 17 is a future promise of being led to the water of Life and having every tear wiped away. Fits with Rev 22:1-5 better.

    Revelation 7:1-14 all happens before the Return, soon after the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, which is the great tribulation, [great ordeal; REBible] referred to in Rev 7:14. The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls happen in the last 3 1/2 years before the Return.
    I don't see a translation problem. It is rather plain. In Rev 7, the innumerable multitude is to serve God in His temple. If Jesus hasn't yet returned to rapture them, how did all those people get there?

    John 14:2 ...I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

    Have you ever considered this?

    Matthew 21:31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said to Him, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you.

    If there is no rapture, how can one group enter the kingdom of God before others? There are indeed two entries into the kingdom of God. One is shown in Rev 7, and another in Rev 21. One takes place before the other, exactly as Jesus said.

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    If there is no rapture, how can one group enter the kingdom of God before others? There are indeed two entries into the kingdom of God. One is shown in Rev 7, and another in Rev 21. One takes place before the other, exactly as Jesus said.
    Our disagreement is that I cannot find anywhere that says God will take His people to heaven.
    Revelation 7 starts and finishes with telling about earthly events. What will happen soon after the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal, then the Millennium and Eternity. All on earth; where do those palm branches grow?

    Typically, you trot out John 14:1-2. The real truth of that prophecy, is: Jesus will come again [to the earth] and we Christians will then be with Him. [on earth] Also rapture believers quote Zech 14 and Jude, that say 'holy ones' accompany Jesus at His Return. These holy ones could be angels or humans. But the proof is in Matthew 24:31 and Revelation 19:14, that positively state they are His angels, the armies of heaven.
    It is disingenuous and actually fraudulent to quote some verses, that seem to support the rapture, without others that totally refute it.

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Our disagreement is that I cannot find anywhere that says God will take His people to heaven.
    Revelation 7 starts and finishes with telling about earthly events. What will happen soon after the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal, then the Millennium and Eternity. All on earth; where do those palm branches grow?

    Typically, you trot out John 14:1-2. The real truth of that prophecy, is: Jesus will come again [to the earth] and we Christians will then be with Him. [on earth] Also rapture believers quote Zech 14 and Jude, that say 'holy ones' accompany Jesus at His Return. These holy ones could be angels or humans. But the proof is in Matthew 24:31 and Revelation 19:14, that positively state they are His angels, the armies of heaven.
    It is disingenuous and actually fraudulent to quote some verses, that seem to support the rapture, without others that totally refute it.
    Haven't you read Hebrews 12:22-28? But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
    24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
    25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
    26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
    27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
    28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

  7. #67
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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Our disagreement is that I cannot find anywhere that says God will take His people to heaven.
    Revelation 7 starts and finishes with telling about earthly events. What will happen soon after the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal, then the Millennium and Eternity. All on earth; where do those palm branches grow?
    If your are right, then God's throne is on earth during the events in context. Otherwise, the rapture has just taken place. The palm branches are just part of it. What about the white robes? God cannot make these things in heaven can He? Maybe He needs Chinese labor. Kidding.

    Btw, have you ever asked yourself why the 144k are sealed by angels and not the Holy Spirit?

    One more tough question. Why does the Lamb open the first six seals, and then the angels take over after that with all the trumpets and bowls?

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Haven't you read Hebrews 12:22-28? But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
    24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
    25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
    26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
    27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
    28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
    Great quote. Your point?
    Are you posting from heaven? If so, please advise your server. Is it Gmail, as in God mail?
    If you are not yet actually in heaven, tell us when you expect to go there. Also why God would allow millions to be killed for their faith up until now, but you and other rapture believers think; no, we will not be appointed to the Lord's wrath.

  9. #69
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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    If your are right, then God's throne is on earth during the events in context. Otherwise, the rapture has just taken place. The palm branches are just part of it. What about the white robes? God cannot make these things in heaven can He? Maybe He needs Chinese labor. Kidding.

    Btw, have you ever asked yourself why the 144k are sealed by angels and not the Holy Spirit?

    One more tough question. Why does the Lamb open the first six seals, and then the angels take over after that with all the trumpets and bowls?
    Gods throne is a spiritual entity. He is omnipresent, therefore anywhere and everywhere.

    The angels place a physical mark onto the 144k. The mark of the beast will be similar.

    Re the Scroll; Jesus is the only one worthy to remove the Seven Seals, then after the Seventh Seal time gap, the angels bring on the Greta Tribulation of the Trumpets and Bowls.
    These questions are irrelevant and a diversion from the main issue of what will happen next on God's prophetic program.

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Great quote. Your point?
    Are you posting from heaven? If so, please advise your server. Is it Gmail, as in God mail?
    If you are not yet actually in heaven, tell us when you expect to go there. Also why God would allow millions to be killed for their faith up until now, but you and other rapture believers think; no, we will not be appointed to the Lord's wrath.
    I don't understand your focus on the rapture. You say no bible passages says people go to heaven yet everyone you see you deny. What your problem? Are you afraid of heaven? You can read the passage right? Does it say these people arrived Via rapture? So if not by rapture how? Are they in heaven or do you deny this?

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I don't understand your focus on the rapture. You say no bible passages says people go to heaven yet everyone you see you deny. What your problem? Are you afraid of heaven? You can read the passage right? Does it say these people arrived Via rapture? So if not by rapture how? Are they in heaven or do you deny this?
    I'm sure heaven is a fantastic place. But why go there when God has amazing plans for us Christians on earth?

    I have yet to see a scripture that says God will take living people to heaven. So I deny all the ones you rapture believers quote, because you must use inference, assumption and wishful thinking to make your theory work.

    Which people do you say are in heaven?
    Not the ones in Rev 7:9, because they are in Jerusalem, proved by Rev 14:1 and all the prophesies saying how the Lord will gather His people into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 49:8-13, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Zephaniah 3:19-20
    Not the ones mentioned in Rev 19:1-2, as they are the souls of the martyrs, who praise God for His vengeance on their murderers.
    Not the ones in Rev 12:6-17, as those who keep the Commandments are plainly on earth.
    Not the ones in Rev 13:7, as the holy people are overcome by the Anti-Christ. Daniel 11:32

    Realize this: you have believed another gospel, a gospel of escapism and the abrogation of responsibilities.
    I suggest to you and all who have been taught the rapture idea, that you at least change your thinking to: Whatever You will, my God and Savior; be done.

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I'm sure heaven is a fantastic place. But why go there when God has amazing plans for us Christians on earth?

    I have yet to see a scripture that says God will take living people to heaven. So I deny all the ones you rapture believers quote, because you must use inference, assumption and wishful thinking to make your theory work.

    Which people do you say are in heaven?
    Not the ones in Rev 7:9, because they are in Jerusalem, proved by Rev 14:1 and all the prophesies saying how the Lord will gather His people into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 49:8-13
    Not the ones mentioned in Rev 19:1-2, as they are the souls of the martyrs, who praise God for His vengeance on their murderers.
    Not the ones in Rev 12:6-17, as those who keep the Commandments are plainly on earth.
    Not the ones in Rev 13:7, as the holy people are overcome by the Anti-Christ. Daniel 11:32

    Realize this: you have believed another gospel, a gospel of escapism and the abrogation of responsibilities.
    I suggest to you and all who have been taught the rapture idea, that you at least change your thinking to: Whatever You will, my God and Savior; be done.
    The point is that the Rapture was never about the Living its about the DEAD. Notice the Context of Pauls teaching Here.

    1 Thes 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

    The Focus of the Rapture is THE DEAD not THE LIVING. We all appear before God the Father at the Judgment seat of Christ IN heaven, then with him we come back to earth. This for you is very hard to grasp i see because you believe the focus of the rapture is

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    [Realize this: you have believed another gospel, a gospel of escapism and the abrogation of responsibilities.
    I suggest to you and all who have been taught the rapture idea, that you at least change your thinking to: Whatever You will, my God and Savior; be done.]
    This is foolishness the Rapture was not about saving the living from the GT its about God bringing with Jesus the Dead ALONG WITH THE LIVING who cares if we have to go through 3.5 years of the GT does dying during that time worse then dying over the past 2000 years? Do i get any special reward for making thru the GT is salvation based on works now? The fact of the matter is the rapture was taught in Regards to the DEAD once you grasp this you can stop fighting the *fact* that people go to heaven but will reign with Christ on earth forever.

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Gods throne is a spiritual entity. He is omnipresent, therefore anywhere and everywhere.
    Are we standing before God's throne right now?

    The angels place a physical mark onto the 144k. The mark of the beast will be similar.

    Re the Scroll; Jesus is the only one worthy to remove the Seven Seals, then after the Seventh Seal time gap, the angels bring on the Greta Tribulation of the Trumpets and Bowls.
    These questions are irrelevant and a diversion from the main issue of what will happen next on God's prophetic program.
    If you knew the correct answers to these questions, you would not think them irrelevant at all. There is a major reason why the seal of salvation is given to angels and the HS is no longer doing the sealing. A major reason indeed. Genesis 6:3.

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Also why God would allow millions to be killed for their faith up until now, but you and other rapture believers think; no, we will not be appointed to the Lord's wrath.
    The rapture has nothing to do with being extra worthy or special. We aren't given a free pass that was not given to all those before us. When God's wrath comes, we are taken out of the way so that God can punish the wicked. The rapture isn't for our sake, though we benefit from it. It to clear the table for God's wrath.

    Just like the days of Lot. God could have taken Lot out of Sodom years before. He didn't. Lot was only brought out to clear the table for the wrath. God is fair and just and wont punish us for something we didn't deserve. That is the whole point of the rapture. Not because we are extra worthy.

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    Re: Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I don't understand your focus on the rapture. You say no bible passages says people go to heaven yet everyone you see you deny. What your problem? Are you afraid of heaven? You can read the passage right? Does it say these people arrived Via rapture? So if not by rapture how? Are they in heaven or do you deny this?
    Ephesians 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

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