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Thread: The timing of Daniel 7:9-12?

  1. #301
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    Re: The timing of Daniel 7:9-12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post

    1. You deny that Dan 7:9-10 is fulfilled in Rev 20:11? You are wrong. What unites the OT and NT passages is the Book of judgment opened in both of them.
    You are Premil, correct? And if yes, this conclusion contradicts Premil then.

    Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
    10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
    11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

    Per Premil, assuming Dan 7:9-10 is fulfilled in Rev 20:11, Rev 20 indicates that happens after the thousand years.

    Per Premil again, verse 11...I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame....is meaning at the beginning of the thousand years.

    According to the above text, first the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit...followed by...I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame

    If you conclude Dan 7:9-10 is fulfilled in Rev 20:11, and that Daniel 7:11 is fulfilled in Revelation 19, that is Amil, not Premil, because that conclusion couldn't possibly work with Premil if the Ancient of days sits first, meaning the GWTJ, followed by the beast then getting cast into the LOF around that same time. Rev 20 already indicates the beast has already been cast into the LOF prior to satan being cast in there as well. The way I try and square Dan 7:9-10 with Revelation, is not via Rev 4 and 5, nor via Rev 20:11, but via Rev 20:4 since that seems to be connected to Dan 7:22, and that I basically see Dan 7:22 meaning Dan 7:9-10.

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    Re: The timing of Daniel 7:9-12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Very good explanation. I have a curve ball for you. Who is the Alpha and Omega in Revelation?

    Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega...12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man

    Jesus, right?

    Revelation 21:6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

    All things were made thru Christ. Nothing that was made, was made without Him. That includes us. Who then is our Father?

    Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless You are our Father, Though Abraham was ignorant of us, And Israel does not acknowledge us. You, O Lord, are our Father; Our Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name.

    Who redeemed/paid for Israel?

    Isaiah 64:8 But now, O Lord, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our potter; And all we are the work of Your hand.

    The mystery of God is very very interesting.
    God is indeed mysterious and that's why he is God. But I reject the conclusion that God's triune personality is the judge in Rev 20:11 because Jesus said specifically that the Godhead judges no one.

    John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

    There are a lot of passages pointing to Jesus alone as the judge of humanity on the Last day, but none is more direct and explicit as John 5:22 above.

  3. #303
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    Re: The timing of Daniel 7:9-12?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    You are Premil, correct? And if yes, this conclusion contradicts Premil then.

    Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
    10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
    11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

    Per Premil, assuming Dan 7:9-10 is fulfilled in Rev 20:11, Rev 20 indicates that happens after the thousand years.

    Per Premil again, verse 11...I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame....is meaning at the beginning of the thousand years.

    According to the above text, first the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit...followed by...I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame

    If you conclude Dan 7:9-10 is fulfilled in Rev 20:11, and that Daniel 7:11 is fulfilled in Revelation 19, that is Amil, not Premil, because that conclusion couldn't possibly work with Premil if the Ancient of days sits first, meaning the GWTJ, followed by the beast then getting cast into the LOF around that same time. Rev 20 already indicates the beast has already been cast into the LOF prior to satan being cast in there as well. The way I try and square Dan 7:9-10 with Revelation, is not via Rev 4 and 5, nor via Rev 20:11, but via Rev 20:4 since that seems to be connected to Dan 7:22, and that I basically see Dan 7:22 meaning Dan 7:9-10.
    For the record, I am post-trib.
    The big question is whether we believe that these events follow Daniel's account in strict chronological order?

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    Re: The timing of Daniel 7:9-12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    See what i mean you refuse to adress anyone positions but your own. You the one who does the same thing you accused me of here. This fits you very well brother.
    Sometimes it looks like you have an exclusive understanding of *addressing your position*? If English is not your first language, I would have put it down to lost in translation, but sadly your language is English.

    If you have actually read any stuff I've posted on this debate and still believe I have not addressed your arguments, then I can't help you.

  5. #305

    Re: The timing of Daniel 7:9-12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Sometimes it looks like you have an exclusive understanding of *addressing your position*? If English is not your first language, I would have put it down to lost in translation, but sadly your language is English.

    If you have actually read any stuff I've posted on this debate and still believe I have not addressed your arguments, then I can't help you.
    You haven't you don't even seem to *understand the debate* your arueing from a Amil Post-trib position. Me and David were both arguing from a pre-mil position. I was arguing Daniel 7:9-12 was fulfilled in Rev Chap 4 thru Rev Chap 11 with God on the Throne and Jesus opening the books and carrying out the judgement. David was arguing that Daniel 7:9-12 was fullfilled in Rev 20:4 when the throne are cast down and judgment was given to the saints.

    From what i've seen out of you you've argued all 3 of these positions, and now your settling on the Amil position with this idea that Daniel 7:9-12 is fulfilled 1000 years after the beast has been in the Lake of Fire. Honestly it just seems like you got lost in the conversation because you don't actually read what others are posting. So no in all honestly you have not once addressed my argument that Daniel 7:9-12 is fulfilled in Rev CHAPTER 4 - Rev CHAPTER 11. But thats fine your position is only believed here by Martyfox a Amil Partial Pretist =). Who in all honestly did put forth a Good argument to defend his position. As i said before you don't seem to even understand my argument so how could you possibly have *addressed it*.

  6. #306
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    Re: The timing of Daniel 7:9-12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    For the record, I am post-trib.
    The big question is whether we believe that these events follow Daniel's account in strict chronological order?
    This has nothing to do with Post trib though, but has to do with when you think the 1000 years in Rev 20 is meaning. If you think it is meaning when Christ returns, this makes you Premil. But you can't logically be Premil if you believe Dan 7:9-10 is fulfilled in Rev 20:11, and that Dan 7:11 is fulfilled in Rev 19. Only Amil could possibly come to that conclusion.

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    Re: The timing of Daniel 7:9-12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The big question is whether we believe that these events follow Daniel's account in strict chronological order?
    You might have a point here if Dan 7:11 doesn't chronologically follow Dan 7:9-10. Is that what you believe might be the case? And if yes, can you explain why verse 11 might not be chronologically following verse 9 and 10?

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    Re: The timing of Daniel 7:9-12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    You haven't you don't even seem to *understand the debate* your arueing from a Amil Post-trib position. Me and David were both aruging from a pre-mil position. I was arguing Daniel 7:9-12 was fullfilled in Rev Chap 4 thru Rev Chap 11 with God on the Throne and Jesus opening the books and carrying out the judgement. David was arguing that Daniel 7:9-12 was fullfilled in Rev 20:4 when the throne are cast down and judgment was given to the saints.

    From what i've seen out of you you've argued all 3 of these positions, and now your settling on the Amil position with this idea that Daniel 7:9-12 is fullfilled 1000 years after the beast has been in the Lake of Fire. Honestly it just seems like you got lost in the converstation because you don't actually read what others are posting. So no in all honestly you have not once addressed my arugment that Daniel 7:9-12 is fullfiled in Rev CHAPTER 4 - Rev CHAPTER 11. But thats fine your position is only believed here my Martyfox =).
    Given the fact you can't seem to make one simple correct sentence without mistakes, it begs the question whether you really understand what is being posted and the scriptures you claim to read?

  9. #309

    Re: The timing of Daniel 7:9-12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Given the fact you can't seem to make one simple correct sentence without mistakes, it begs the question whether you really understand what is being posted and the scriptures you claim to read?
    Maybe i'm a little dyslexic LOL but i'm clearly able to follow my own arguments and those of others, the fact is if this is the conclusion you've settled on thats fine. I just want you to know that this is Martys position your're agreeing with, Post #143. But you never did actually address mine or why you believe it is incorrect that is all i'm saying if you ever wish to do so its basically stated in the opening of the OP.

    I believe Daniel 7:9-14 is fulfilled in Rev Chap 4 thru Rev Chap 11 with God the father sitting on the throne and Jesus the lamb carrying out the judgment. Our disagreement on the GWT is not in view at all in relation to my beliefs which is why it doesn't really matter that you could never prove Jesus actually sits on the throne

    If you disagree with Martys position and want to put forth a New One based on all you've learned so far in the OP i'm sure my and David would be more then happy to test it for you =).

    1 Thessalonians 5:12 And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. Be at peace among yourselves.Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all.
    Rejoice always,pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies. Test all things; hold fast what is good.

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    Re: The timing of Daniel 7:9-12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    God is indeed mysterious and that's why he is God. But I reject the conclusion that God's triune personality is the judge in Rev 20:11 because Jesus said specifically that the Godhead judges no one.

    John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

    There are a lot of passages pointing to Jesus alone as the judge of humanity on the Last day, but none is more direct and explicit as John 5:22 above.
    Sure. I don't disagree with you that Jesus is the sole judge.

    The mystery is that of "The Father." Jesus has a Father. We have a Father. Are these one and the same, or is Jesus our Father? I realize Jesus isn't His own Father, as in one entity, but He clearly is 'our' Father.
    Iow, Jesus' Father is thee Father, and we are sons of Jesus, grandsons of thee Father.

  11. #311

    Re: The timing of Daniel 7:9-12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    Where in the Scripture have you ever seen the Father being referred to as the Ancient of Days?

    There are seven dispensations/generations/ages before the Father. The Son of God, having been sent to the earth, shares one with the Father and fills all other six of them in various offices as both the Lord and Christ.... starting from the about 33 years He spent on earth as Jesus the Christ.

    Jesus as the Son of man points to the dispensation of the eternal life at the foundation of the world. The Son of God, as the Word of God, points to His generation as the Majesty at the Father's right hand, and as the Ancient of days in Heaven. I hope you can see how come the Son of man in the world can "come" to Ancient of days in Heaven.

    Besides, the Scripture says that no man has ever seen the Father except the Son. John 6:45-46 KJV declares :
    It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. [46] Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

    Again, John 1:18 KJV declares :
    No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    So, how could Daniel have seen the Father as the Ancient of days?
    I'm just curious what do you think of this passage? Isaiah 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

    2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

    3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

    4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

    5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

    6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

    7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

    8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

    9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

  12. #312
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    Re: The timing of Daniel 7:9-12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I'm just curious what do you think of this passage? Isaiah 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

    2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

    3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

    4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

    5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

    6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

    7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

    8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

    9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
    Jesus is the Lord of Hosts, the leader of the angels. Isaiah saw Jesus.

  13. #313

    Re: The timing of Daniel 7:9-12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Very good explanation. I have a curve ball for you. Who is the Alpha and Omega in Revelation?

    Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega...12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man

    Jesus, right?

    Revelation 21:6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

    All things were made thru Christ. Nothing that was made, was made without Him. That includes us. Who then is our Father?

    Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless You are our Father, Though Abraham was ignorant of us, And Israel does not acknowledge us. You, O Lord, are our Father; Our Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name.

    Who redeemed/paid for Israel?

    Isaiah 64:8 But now, O Lord, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our potter; And all we are the work of Your hand.

    The mystery of God is very very interesting.
    Answering the question about alpha and omega is a moot point to what needs to be addressed. Judgment that Jesus has is a subset of authority given by the Father. It is tantamount to the US or any other country in world war 2. Gen. Douglas McArthur was chief of operations of the war against Japan. FDR was the commander in chief yet he did not, nor has seldom any US President ever directly participated in battle. McArthur had all war authority against the enemy but FDR held authority over him. The same could be said by any governor appointed judge. The governor does not participate in decisions handed down by the judge. Yet he holds authority over the judge. And could probably remove him at his behest. The only difference is that Jesus will judge in complete agreement with the wishes of the Father and removal is an untenable thought. The right of Jesus to judge everyone is a subset of authority to the rights of the Father. God the Father will remain uncontested in his rule until there are no more enemies in submission to his Son. Then he will deliver the kingdom that is totally devoid of all rebellion unto the father. In other words there will be no hierarchy of authorities remaining.
    Blessings to all who keeps the sayings and the prophecy of his book!!
    GB

  14. #314

    Re: The timing of Daniel 7:9-12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Jesus is the Lord of Hosts, the leader of the angels. Isaiah saw Jesus.
    Interesting take tony tell me where then is God the father here? Did he leave his throne? Also i want to add this In the Hebrew Bible, the name Yahweh and the title Elohim frequently occur with the word tzevaot or sabaoth ("hosts" or "armies", Hebrew: צבאות) as YHWH Elohe Tzevaot ("YHWH God of Hosts"), Elohe Tzevaot ("God of Hosts"), Adonai YHWH Tzevaot ("Lord YHWH of Hosts") or, most frequently, YHWH Tzevaot ("YHWH of Hosts"). This name is traditionally transliterated in Latin as Sabaoth, a form that will be more familiar to many English readers, as it was used in the King James Version of the Bible.


    The name “LORD of hosts” occurs some 261 times in the Old Testament Scriptures. God is first called the “LORD of hosts” in 1 Samuel 1:3. The word LORD, capitalized, refers to Yahweh, the self-existent, redemptive God. The word hosts is a translation of the Hebrew word sabaoth, meaning “armies”—a reference to the angelic armies of heaven. Thus, another way of saying “LORD of hosts” is “God of the armies of heaven.” The NIV translates YHWH saboath as “LORD Almighty.”

    Are you claiming all of these passages refer to Jesus?

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    Re: The timing of Daniel 7:9-12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Interesting take tony tell me where then is God the father here? Did he leave his throne? Also i want to add this In the Hebrew Bible, the name Yahweh and the title Elohim frequently occur with the word tzevaot or sabaoth ("hosts" or "armies", Hebrew: צבאות) as YHWH Elohe Tzevaot ("YHWH God of Hosts"), Elohe Tzevaot ("God of Hosts"), Adonai YHWH Tzevaot ("Lord YHWH of Hosts") or, most frequently, YHWH Tzevaot ("YHWH of Hosts"). This name is traditionally transliterated in Latin as Sabaoth, a form that will be more familiar to many English readers, as it was used in the King James Version of the Bible.


    The name “LORD of hosts” occurs some 261 times in the Old Testament Scriptures. God is first called the “LORD of hosts” in 1 Samuel 1:3. The word LORD, capitalized, refers to Yahweh, the self-existent, redemptive God. The word hosts is a translation of the Hebrew word sabaoth, meaning “armies”—a reference to the angelic armies of heaven. Thus, another way of saying “LORD of hosts” is “God of the armies of heaven.” The NIV translates YHWH saboath as “LORD Almighty.”

    Are you claiming all of these passages refer to Jesus?
    In short, yep! Although, there are a few times when Lord of Hosts is used on some manuscripts, while just Lord is used in others for the same verse. Generally though, yes, Jesus is the Lord of Hosts. Isn't that how He is seen in Rev 19?

    Isaiah 48:16-17 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
    From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me. Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “I am the Lord your God...

    The Lord your Redeemer is the one sent by the Lord God and His Spirit. Therefore, the Lord Redeemer is the one that was sent. That can only be Jesus. Jesus is the Lord your Redeemer.

    Isaiah 44:6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, AND His Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
    ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

    The Lord of Hosts is the Redeemer. Who bought us? Jesus. Jesus is the Lord of Hosts, the Redeemer.

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