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Thread: Daniel 9 & Revelation 12

  1. #31

    Re: Daniel 9 & Revelation 12

    Quote Originally Posted by blur1 View Post
    To recap what I feel were the important things in the OP and thread:

    there is an unbroken logical sequence of events, going from the very start of the tribulation at June 7, 1967 (or Nov 29, 1947 if you want to do that), to the start of literally 70 weeks, .
    Brother, I'm afraid you have lost me right here. I can't see how these dates can be the 70 weeks from when Daniel was talking.

    Dan 9: After 69 weeks the Messiah did come and then He preached for 1/2 week to the Jews. There is your 69 1/2 of the 70 weeks determined.
    Now we are told after the days of the Gentiles then 2 witnesses will come and preach for 1/2 week and then the 70 weeks is done. About the time these 2 witnesses start preaching a 7 year covenant will be made and it will be broke in the middle, about the time the 2 witnesses are killed and left in the streets and the whole world will rejoice.

    As for Revelations, it is easy for me to see that it is told from various places over again. Such as Chap 4 the rapture of the church, Rev 6 the complete story of the church again including the rapture, Rev 12 the story of the rapture of the church and beyond.

    Most have tried to put Dan 9 either in the past or in the future, when it was both. Most get stumbled by the time of the Gentiles, which is not in Daniel's 70 weeks at all. As Paul told us, God works with the Jews as a nation (as a people) and He did exactly that for 69 1/2 weeks and after which He turned for a Bride. After the time of the Gentiles is over, then the last 1/2 week will be completed.

    Remember God never does anything without a purpose, especially in His 1st bible, the sky.

    Rev 12 is not hypothetical and is about to be fulfilled in the sky, which also means that this world is about to change in some mighty way.

    Could you explain why you believe that May 6 and Aug 12 are important?

  2. #32
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    Re: Daniel 9 & Revelation 12

    Quote Originally Posted by blur1 View Post
    To recap what I feel were the important things in the OP and thread:

    there is an unbroken logical sequence of events, going from the very start of the tribulation at June 7, 1967 (or Nov 29, 1947 if you want to do that), to the start of literally 70 weeks, to the antichrist's mortal head wound 62 weeks later, to the 42 months of his reign, his removal at the first 4 trumpets, to the 5 months of the 5th trumpet, to the 1290 days that cut off the sacrifices to the historical date of the abomination of desolation, 15 Kislev in 2024 (6th trumpet).

    Or in tandem to that: the antichrist's mortal head wound (Aug 12-15, 2017), 1260 days of his reign (as opposed to 42 Hebrew months), then 5 solar months, 1 week to purify the temple, 1260 days of the 2 witnesses. Same destination at 15 Kislev.

    I put it visually into a chart here:
    http://bibleforums.org/entry.php/439...9-s-Revelation
    I think the reproduction quality is better here:
    http://ritualsandprophecy.blogspot.c...evelation.html

    at each juncture there is a distinctive feature to highlight the importance of it.

    TonyP raised the objection that Revelation has to be read straight through in chronology. Is the 'woe' of Revelation 12 the 3rd woe or does the star sign of Revelation 12 have relevance to the Sept 23, 2017 astronomical sign at all?

    If Revelation is not strictly chronological, we can say that the star sign of Revelation 12 that occurs Sept 23, 2017 does indeed have a relevance (as I showed in the OP)

    If Revelation is strictly chronological, the Sept 23, 2017 star sign has no relevance at all because there are multiple events that have not occurred before Sept 23, 2017.

    In essence, I have to prove that Revelation is not strictly chronological, and how does one do that?

    the only way I am able to do that is to show that there are 3 sets of Matt 24

    29Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ 30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory'

    - at the 6th Seal (Rev 6:12-14)
    - Trumpets 1-4 reiterate the sun, moon darkened, stars fall, powers of the heavens are shaken
    - 7 bowls of wrath (3rd 'woe'/ aka tribes of earth will 'mourn')

    Revelation doesn't list a 'sign of the son of man in heaven' that occurs immediately after the 6th seal. the only sign in heaven we get is until Rev 12:1-2. So where's the missing 'sign of the son of man' after the 6th Seal? Is it possible that the star sign of Rev 12 is what is happening 'immediately after the 6th seal'?

    tonyp would say it's not important, but what makes more sense? there's a 'sign of the son of man' immediately following the 'sun, moon darkened, stars fall, etc' like Jesus says there is, and thus the star sign of Rev 12 could easily be put into the chronology of things as I've shown...

    Or, that the star sign of Rev 12 on Sept 23, 2017 has no significance whatsoever? What seems more reasonable?

    As to the posters that insist that Dan 9 has only a historical significance, what can I really respond to these posts? This whole thread is speculation, that in my opinion, has a mountain of evidence to support this future framework. And then people come in and say Dan 9 was fulfilled in 33 ad.

    Well, thanks for the input, most people are well familiar with that frame of discourse. there are probably thousands of threads about a historical understanding of Dan 9.

    Of course this post is hypothetical, we will see what happens May 6, and Aug 12 to verify what's going on. Unfortunately, there might not be a Bibleforums by then, who knows. So I don't feel I have the luxury of waiting and pointing out something that has already transpired. that would be nice, but I can't really count on that happening.
    I really think a study into Daniel 7 and Daniel 11-12 would be beneficial for your timeline.

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    Re: Daniel 9 & Revelation 12

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I really think a study into Daniel 7 and Daniel 11-12 would be beneficial for your timeline.
    The 7 '7's of Dan 9:25 are 49 years starting at June 7, 1967 / 28 Iyyar, 5727, the 1st "Jerusalem Day' call to restore it which that holiday celebrates in Israel.

    The 49 years exactly end, then start 70 weeks on June 5th, 2016 (on the Hebrew calendar 28 Iyyar, 5776, not on the solar calendar's June 7, 2016)


    June 5, 2016 plus 70 weeks takes us to Oct. 8, 2017
    https://www.timeanddate.com/date/dat...w=&ad=490&rec=
    this starts the sacrifices or prayers on the temple mount

    Add the 1290 days of Dan 12 to get to April 20, 2021
    https://www.timeanddate.com/date/dat...=&ad=1290&rec=

    Add the 1335 days of Dan 12 to that to get to dusk Dec. 15, 2024 which is 15 Kislev, the traditional day of the abomination of desolation statue
    https://www.timeanddate.com/date/dat...=&ad=1335&rec=

    this statue in Judea/ literal Jerusalem will be going up 6 days before the winter solstice that occurs on the sabbath day that Jesus is talking about in Matt 24 (ie Dec 21 is on a Saturday). they have 6 days to flee before the greatest tribulation occurs (technically, the great tribulation started Dec 21, 2016)
    People are 'blessed' to reach this day because this is when God starts the wrath against the ungodly.

    62 weeks (Dan 9:26) after 28 Iyyar 5776 / and/ or June 7, 2016 (we went forward 49 years from the 1st 'Jerusalem day' on June 7, 1967) is the start of the Daniel 7 beast from the sea and the mortally head wounded individual: Aug 15, 2017 to Jan 26, 2021 is 1260 days, add 5 months to get June 26, 2021.
    Add 1 week to purify the temple, July 4, 2021 (very important date, breaks the Declaration of Independence in the middle of the '7'. 490 /2 = 245 years. July 4, 1776 plus 245 = July 4, 2021) add 1260 days to get Dec. 15, 2024, 15 Kislev at dusk for the abomination.

    What am I missing?

  4. #34
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    Re: Daniel 9 & Revelation 12

    Quote Originally Posted by blur1 View Post
    62 weeks (Dan 9:26) after 28 Iyyar 5776 / and/ or June 7, 2016 (we went forward 49 years from the 1st 'Jerusalem day' on June 7, 1967) is the start of the Daniel 7 beast from the sea and the mortally head wounded individual: Aug 15, 2017 to Jan 26, 2021 is 1260 days, add 5 months to get June 26, 2021.
    Add 1 week to purify the temple, July 4, 2021 (very important date, breaks the Declaration of Independence in the middle of the '7'. 490 /2 = 245 years. July 4, 1776 plus 245 = July 4, 2021) add 1260 days to get Dec. 15, 2024, 15 Kislev at dusk for the abomination.

    What am I missing?
    This here i don't understand how your dating the Day for the mortal head wound for the beast?

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    Re: Daniel 9 & Revelation 12

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    This here i don't understand how your dating the Day for the mortal head wound for the beast?
    25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the call to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a ruler, there shall be seven '7's.

    Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

    26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

    27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

    The blue highlight is the national holiday, 'Jerusalem day' in Israel, the basis of which is derived from the 6 day war.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Day

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

    the 6 day war between Israel & Arabs was June 5, 1967 through June 10, 1967. The original 'call to restore Jerusalem' occurred on June 7, 1967, - that's the holiday origination.

    Now go forward 7 '7's - go forward 49 years from that original date, June 7, 1967 to either 28 Iyyar, 5776 (which is on the solar calendar is dusk June 4/ day of June 5, 2016) or on the solar calendar June 7, 2016.

    Now start the counter for literally 70 weeks - from 28 Iyyar 5776 (hebrew calendar which is not the same as the solar calendar date, they are different by a few days) or June 7, 2016.

    And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off.

    That right there in orange above is the event of the antichrist's mortal head wound that he recovers from.
    62 weeks after 28 Iyyar, 5776 is dusk Aug 12, 2017.
    62 weeks after June 7, 2016 is Aug 15, 2017. How do we know this? because the same individual that is 'cut off' then goes on to make the 7 year covenant.

    25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the call to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a ruler, there shall be seven '7's.

    Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

    26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

    27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

    Rev 13
    And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. 4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?”

    5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.

    After he is 'cut off', then he makes the 'strong covenant' - confirms the Mosaic covenant, which is read every 7 years. That's just the progression of Daniel 9 right there: he's cut off, then makes the strong covenant.

    When is he 'cut off'? After 62 weeks, Aug 12 - 15, 2017

    Is there anything else to confirm this theory? Yes, the star sign of Revelation 12 and the Acts passage from the OP: just like Jesus was dead for 3 days then resurrected then is around for 40 days, then ascends into heaven. The event I am describing parallels this exactly: the 'anointed one' is 'cut off' (for 3 days because this is the difference between the Hebrew calendar and solar calendar definition of 49 'years'. the solar calendar 'after 62 weeks' ends on Aug 15, 2017. 40 days later is the star sign of Rev 12 on Sept 23, 2017 when the man child ascends to heaven.

    Same exact pattern.

    Halfway through this 7 year Mosaic covenant timeframe, as punishment for Jews breaking the Mosaic covenant, the temple will be taken over by the False Prophet in 'Jerusalem'. 1335 days later, God will pour out the bowls of wrath with the abomination of desolation at Christmas 2024.

  6. #36
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    Re: Daniel 9 & Revelation 12

    I briefly touched on this point earlier, thought I would expand on it now.

    So what is that event that is being described when the 'anointed one' is 'cut off' and its relation to the star sign of Rev 12? Jesus 'ascended to heaven', so what is the antichrist going to do being 'ascended into heaven' 40 days later on Sept 23, 2017?

    I am pretty sure that this anointed one that is cut off is 'Lucifer' of Isaiah 14

    3 When the Lord has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:

    “How the oppressor has ceased,
    the insolent fury ceased!
    5
    The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked,
    the scepter of rulers,
    6
    that struck the peoples in wrath
    with unceasing blows,
    that ruled the nations in anger
    with unrelenting persecution.
    7
    The whole earth is at rest and quiet;
    they break forth into singing.
    8
    The cypresses rejoice at you,
    the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
    ‘Since you were laid low,
    no woodcutter comes up against us.’
    9
    Sheol beneath is stirred up
    to meet you when you come;
    it rouses the shades to greet you,
    all who were leaders of the earth;
    it raises from their thrones
    all who were kings of the nations.
    10
    All of them will answer
    and say to you:
    ‘You too have become as weak as we!
    You have become like us!’
    11
    Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
    the sound of your harps;
    maggots are laid as a bed beneath you,
    and worms are your covers.

    12
    “How you are fallen from heaven,
    O Day Star, son of Dawn!
    How you are cut down to the ground,
    you who laid the nations low!
    13
    You said in your heart,
    ‘I will ascend to heaven;
    above the stars of God
    I will set my throne on high;
    I will sit on the mount of assembly
    in the far reaches of the north;
    14
    I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
    I will make myself like the Most High.’

    15
    But you are brought down to Sheol,
    to the far reaches of the pit.
    16

    Those who see you will stare at you
    and ponder over you:
    ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
    who shook kingdoms,
    17
    who made the world like a desert
    and overthrew its cities,
    who did not let his prisoners go home?’
    18
    All the kings of the nations lie in glory,
    each in his own tomb;[d]
    19
    but you are cast out, away from your grave,
    like a loathed branch,
    clothed with the slain, those pierced by the sword,
    who go down to the stones of the pit,
    like a dead body trampled underfoot.
    20
    You will not be joined with them in burial,
    because you have destroyed your land,
    you have slain your people.

    “May the offspring of evildoers
    nevermore be named!
    21
    Prepare slaughter for his sons
    because of the guilt of their fathers,
    lest they rise and possess the earth,
    and fill the face of the world with cities.”

    22 “I will rise up against them,” declares the Lord of hosts, “and will cut off from Babylon name and remnant, descendants and posterity,” declares the Lord. 23 “And I will make it a possession of the hedgehog,[e] and pools of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” declares the Lord of hosts.

    from the passage above, Lucifer 'falls to earth' because he previously said, I will make myself like the Most high.

    Just like Jesus ascended to heaven, Lucifer will 'ascend to heaven' this September at the star sign - I take this to mean takes control of spiritual matters, ie confirms the Mosaic covenant.

  7. #37
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    Re: Daniel 9 & Revelation 12

    Quote Originally Posted by blur1 View Post
    25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the call to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a ruler, there shall be seven '7's.

    Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

    26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

    27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

    The blue highlight is the national holiday, 'Jerusalem day' in Israel, the basis of which is derived from the 6 day war.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Day

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

    the 6 day war between Israel & Arabs was June 5, 1967 through June 10, 1967. The original 'call to restore Jerusalem' occurred on June 7, 1967, - that's the holiday origination.

    Now go forward 7 '7's - go forward 49 years from that original date, June 7, 1967 to either 28 Iyyar, 5776 (which is on the solar calendar is dusk June 4/ day of June 5, 2016) or on the solar calendar June 7, 2016.

    Now start the counter for literally 70 weeks - from 28 Iyyar 5776 (hebrew calendar which is not the same as the solar calendar date, they are different by a few days) or June 7, 2016.

    And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off.

    That right there in orange above is the event of the antichrist's mortal head wound that he recovers from.
    62 weeks after 28 Iyyar, 5776 is dusk Aug 12, 2017.
    62 weeks after June 7, 2016 is Aug 15, 2017. How do we know this? because the same individual that is 'cut off' then goes on to make the 7 year covenant.

    25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the call to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a ruler, there shall be seven '7's.

    Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

    26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

    27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

    Rev 13
    And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. 4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?”

    5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.

    After he is 'cut off', then he makes the 'strong covenant' - confirms the Mosaic covenant, which is read every 7 years. That's just the progression of Daniel 9 right there: he's cut off, then makes the strong covenant.

    When is he 'cut off'? After 62 weeks, Aug 12 - 15, 2017

    Is there anything else to confirm this theory? Yes, the star sign of Revelation 12 and the Acts passage from the OP: just like Jesus was dead for 3 days then resurrected then is around for 40 days, then ascends into heaven. The event I am describing parallels this exactly: the 'anointed one' is 'cut off' (for 3 days because this is the difference between the Hebrew calendar and solar calendar definition of 49 'years'. the solar calendar 'after 62 weeks' ends on Aug 15, 2017. 40 days later is the star sign of Rev 12 on Sept 23, 2017 when the man child ascends to heaven.

    Same exact pattern.

    Halfway through this 7 year Mosaic covenant timeframe, as punishment for Jews breaking the Mosaic covenant, the temple will be taken over by the False Prophet in 'Jerusalem'. 1335 days later, God will pour out the bowls of wrath with the abomination of desolation at Christmas 2024.
    See this is where we Disagree brother. The AC is quote *the people of the prince that shall come* IOW what your saying doesn't actually Jive with what the Jewish people believe, The don't believe their Messiah will be killed( Just like they were shocked Jesus was killed).

    So seeing the AC killed to them won't confirm Daniel 9:26. Also the AC won't *destroy the temple *and the City*. What the AC does is clearly all mentioned in Daniel 9:27 where he: he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

    Idk if you understand what i'm saying but the AC doesn't fulfill Daniel 9:26 he fullfills Daniel 9:27. People either try to make those two passages the same event but its clear you can't do both. There is no way the AC(the new anointed) is going to be killed and have nothing, and then another person *the prince of the people to come* is going to destroy Jerusalem and the Third temple(since there is no third temple) and then a 4th temple gonna be built for the events in Daniel 9:27.

    Everything else though we seem to be in almost complete agreement.

  8. #38
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    Re: Daniel 9 & Revelation 12

    Quote Originally Posted by blur1 View Post
    I briefly touched on this point earlier, thought I would expand on it now.
    So what is that event that is being described when the 'anointed one' is 'cut off' and its relation to the star sign of Rev 12? Jesus 'ascended to heaven', so what is the antichrist going to do being 'ascended into heaven' 40 days later on Sept 23, 2017?
    I am pretty sure that this anointed one that is cut off is 'Lucifer' of Isaiah 14
    3 When the Lord has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:

    “How the oppressor has ceased,
    the insolent fury ceased!
    5
    The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked,
    the scepter of rulers,
    6
    that struck the peoples in wrath
    with unceasing blows,
    that ruled the nations in anger
    with unrelenting persecution.
    7
    The whole earth is at rest and quiet;
    they break forth into singing.
    8
    The cypresses rejoice at you,
    the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
    ‘Since you were laid low,
    no woodcutter comes up against us.’
    9
    Sheol beneath is stirred up
    to meet you when you come;
    it rouses the shades to greet you,
    all who were leaders of the earth;
    it raises from their thrones
    all who were kings of the nations.
    10
    All of them will answer
    and say to you:
    ‘You too have become as weak as we!
    You have become like us!’
    11
    Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
    the sound of your harps;
    maggots are laid as a bed beneath you,
    and worms are your covers.

    12
    “How you are fallen from heaven,
    O Day Star, son of Dawn!
    How you are cut down to the ground,
    you who laid the nations low!
    13
    You said in your heart,
    ‘I will ascend to heaven;
    above the stars of God
    I will set my throne on high;
    I will sit on the mount of assembly
    in the far reaches of the north;
    14
    I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
    I will make myself like the Most High.’

    15
    But you are brought down to Sheol,
    to the far reaches of the pit.
    16

    Those who see you will stare at you
    and ponder over you:
    ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
    who shook kingdoms,
    17
    who made the world like a desert
    and overthrew its cities,
    who did not let his prisoners go home?’
    18
    All the kings of the nations lie in glory,
    each in his own tomb;[d]
    19
    but you are cast out, away from your grave,
    like a loathed branch,
    clothed with the slain, those pierced by the sword,
    who go down to the stones of the pit,
    like a dead body trampled underfoot.
    20
    You will not be joined with them in burial,
    because you have destroyed your land,
    you have slain your people.

    “May the offspring of evildoers
    nevermore be named!
    21
    Prepare slaughter for his sons
    because of the guilt of their fathers,
    lest they rise and possess the earth,
    and fill the face of the world with cities.”

    22 “I will rise up against them,” declares the Lord of hosts, “and will cut off from Babylon name and remnant, descendants and posterity,” declares the Lord. 23 “And I will make it a possession of the hedgehog,[e] and pools of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” declares the Lord of hosts.
    from the passage above, Lucifer 'falls to earth' because he previously said, I will make myself like the Most high.
    Just like Jesus ascended to heaven, Lucifer will 'ascend to heaven' this September at the star sign - I take this to mean takes control of spiritual matters, ie confirms the Mosaic covenant.
    This is interesting if you believe that Lucifer is the Anointed one who is Cut off this time instead of the AC then i Can indeed get behind this line of reasoning. Jesus clearly enters Satans Territory to save the Man-child as mentioned in 1 Thes 4. Then God takes Jesus and the Saints up to his throne and Satan imo (chasing them) runs right into Michael where the war breaks out.

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    Re: Daniel 9 & Revelation 12

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    See this is where we Disagree brother. The AC is quote *the people of the prince that shall come* IOW what your saying doesn't actually Jive with what the Jewish people believe, The don't believe their Messiah will be killed( Just like they were shocked Jesus was killed).

    So seeing the AC killed to them won't confirm Daniel 7:26. Also the AC won't *destroy the temple *and the City*. What the AC does is clearly all mentioned in Daniel 9:27 where he: he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

    Idk if you understand what i'm saying but the AC doesn't fulfill Daniel 7:26 he fullfills Daniel 7:27. People either try to make those two passages the same event but its clear you can't do both. There is no way the AC(the new anointed) is going to be killed and have nothing, and then another person *the prince of the people to come* is going to destroy Jerusalem and the Third temple(since there is no third temple) and then a 4th temple gonna be built for the events in Daniel 7:27.

    Everything else though we seem to be in almost complete agreement.
    The 'people of the prince to come' refers to all of the following:
    • people of Lucifer/ the anointed one that is cut off
    • the false prophet
    • Jesus (we know this because in Rev 18, God is telling people to destroy Mystery Babylon.)


    so it gets a little tricky discussing this.

    As to the Jewish notion of their messiah, they expect 2 messiahs & most definitely expect a messiah to be killed & resurrected:

    from Chabad
    http://www.chabad.org/library/moshia...ppendix-II.htm
    Jewish tradition speaks of two redeemers, each one called Mashiach. Both are involved in ushering in the Messianic era. They are Mashiach ben David and Mashiach ben Yossef.1

    The term Mashiach unqualified always refers to Mashiach ben David (Mashiach the descendant of David) of the tribe of Judah. He is the actual (final) redeemer who shall rule in the Messianic age. All that was said in our text relates to him.

    Mashiach ben Yossef (Mashiach the descendant of Joseph) of the tribe of Ephraim (son of Joseph), is also referred to as Mashiach ben Ephrayim, Mashiach the descendant of Ephraim.2 He will come first, before the final redeemer, and later will serve as his viceroy.3

    The essential task of Mashiach ben Yossef is to act as precursor to Mashiach ben David: he will prepare the world for the coming of the final redeemer. Different sources attribute to him different functions, some even charging him with tasks traditionally associated with Mashiach ben David (such as the ingathering of the exiles, the rebuilding of the Bet Hamikdash, and so forth).4

    The principal and final function ascribed to Mashiach ben Yossef is of political and military nature. He shall wage war against the forces of evil that oppress Israel. More specifically, he will do battle against Edom, the descendants of Esau.5 Edom is the comprehensive designation of the enemies of Israel,6 and it will be crushed through the progeny of Joseph. Thus it was prophesied of old, "The House of Jacob will be a fire and the House of Joseph a flame, and the House of Esau for stubble.." (Obadiah 1:18): "the progeny of Esau shall be delivered only into the hands of the progeny of Joseph."7

    This ultimate confrontation between Joseph and Esau is alluded already in the very birth of Joseph when his mother Rachel exclaimed, "G‑d has taken away my disgrace" (Genesis 30:23): with prophetic vision she foresaw that an "anointed savior" will descend from Joseph and that he will remove the disgrace of Israel.8 In this context she called his name "Yossef, saying 'yossef Hashem - may G‑d add to me ben acher (lit., another son), i.e., ben acharono shel olam - one who will be at the end of the world's time,'9 from which it follows that 'meshu'ach milchamah - one anointed for battle' will descend from Joseph."10

    The immediate results of this war11 will be disastrous: Mashiach ben Yossef will be killed. This is described in the prophecy of Zechariah, who says of this tragedy that "they shall mourn him as one mourns for an only child." (Zechariah 12:10).12 His death will be followed by a period of great calamities. These new tribulations shall be the final test for Israel, and shortly thereafter Mashiach ben David shall come, avenge his death, resurrect him, and inaugurate the Messianic era of everlasting peace and bliss.13

    This, in brief, is the general perception of the "second Mashiach," the descendant of Joseph through the tribe of Ephraim.

    Quite significantly, R. Saadiah Gaon (one of the few to elaborate on the role of Mashiach ben Yossef) notes that this sequence is not definite but contingent! Mashiach ben Yossef will not have to appear before Mashiach ben David, nor will the activities attributed to him or his death have to occur. All depends on the spiritual condition of the Jewish people at the time the redemption is to take place:

    The essential function of Mashiach ben Yossef is to prepare Israel for the final redemption, to put them into the proper condition in order to clear the way for Mashiach ben David to come. Of that ultimate redemption it is said, that if Israel repent (return to G‑d) they shall be redeemed immediately (even before the predetermined date for Mashiach's coming). If they will not repent and thus become dependent on the final date, "the Holy One, blessed be He, will set up a ruler over them, whose decrees shall be as cruel as Haman's, thus causing Israel to repent, and thereby bringing them back to the right path."14 In other words, if Israel shall return to G‑d on their own and make themselves worthy of the redemption, there is no need for the trials and tribulations associated with the above account of events related to Mashiach ben Yossef. Mashiach ben David will come directly and redeem us.15
    As to your points about Dan 7, do you mean Dan 9? I'm a little confused here.

  10. #40
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    Re: Daniel 9 & Revelation 12

    Quote Originally Posted by blur1 View Post
    The 'people of the prince to come' refers to all of the following:
    • people of Lucifer/ the anointed one that is cut off
    • the false prophet
    • Jesus (we know this because in Rev 18, God is telling people to destroy Mystery Babylon.)


    so it gets a little tricky discussing this.

    As to the Jewish notion of their messiah, they expect 2 messiahs & most definitely expect a messiah to be killed & resurrected:

    from Chabad
    http://www.chabad.org/library/moshia...ppendix-II.htm


    As to your points about Dan 7, do you mean Dan 9? I'm a little confused here.
    Actually the Jews clearly do this because they Deny Jesus was the messiah so they have to spilt the prophies of the Messiah into two people to make sense of the OT, but thats is rabbic Judaism for you.

    Everywhere i said Daniel 7 i mean 9 i edited for you. Sorry bout that.

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    Re: Daniel 9 & Revelation 12

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Actually the Jews clearly do this because they Deny Jesus was the messiah so they have to spilt the prophies of the Messiah into two people to make sense of the OT, but thats is rabbic Judaism for you.

    Everywhere i said Daniel 7 i mean 9 i edited for you. Sorry bout that.
    My bad, I read it again & realized what you were talking about, but I had already replied... no problems

    About the chabad quotes above, it is really shocking, because it fits the 'antichrist/ false prophet' paradigm so well.

    Messiah ben Joseph battles the children of Esau (Muslims) and is then killed for it. Then messiah ben david resurrects messiah ben Joseph.

    I think one way this could play out is that Iran breaks the nuclear treaty (started Nov 24, 2013 then add 1260 days) May 6, 2017, then Trump wages war against Iran, is mortally head wounded/ killed Aug 12, 2017 and then Putin resurrects him. Then both Putin & Trump institute the 3rd temple in response to this. The "Muslim antichrist' that broke the covenant 1260 days later would trick people into thinking that Putin & Trump were good.

    this would mean that Abaddon/ Apolllyon is another figure entirely separate from either Putin or Trump who would take over the temple in the middle of the 7 years (2021).

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