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Thread: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

  1. #1
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    Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


    1 Thessalonians 4:16 *For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    Tell me these are not all referring to the exact same event.

    and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory....Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air

    How can it get any more obvious than this, that whenever Matthew 24:30 and Mark 13:26 is meaning, so is 1 Thessalonians 4:17 meaning?

    And if we throw the following into the mix.

    1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


    Let's now look at all of these passages combined in order to point out all of the things that can be found in common with each other.

    Since Matthew 24:30 and Mark 13:26 are parallel accounts, we'll just use Matthew 24:30 then.

    In Matthew 24:30 it states...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 it states...Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air

    Already at least two things in common.

    1...the Son of man in Matthew 24:30 is clearly meaning the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

    2...the Son of man in Matthew 24:30 is seem coming in the clouds, and so is He according to 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as well, since no one can get caught up to the clouds if no clouds are involved. But these clouds are likely not meaning literal, because if it were, that means the rapture could only occur on a cloudy day, and that some days there is not even a cloud in the sky. Obviously then, this isn't meaning literal clouds in this case. Personally I tend to think they are meaning angels. But even if that is incorrect, still don't think they are meaning literal clouds.

    Let's add some more context though.

    Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    Now we see there is a trumpet involved according to Matthew 24:31. And as luck would have it, 1 Corinthians 15:52 indicates there is a trumpet involved as well.

    So that makes at least 3 things in common at this point.

    3...Matthew 24:31 involves a trumpet, and so does 1 Corinthians 15:52.

    But there's even more in common than just these 3 things thusfar.

    Mark 13:27 indicates shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    It seems to me the uttermost part of heaven might mean where the passed on saints would currently be residing, thus the dead in Christ who rise first, the one we are told God will bring with Him according to 1 Thessalonians 4:14. It also seems to me the uttermost part of the earth might mean where those who are alive and remain would be when the rapture occurs.

    4...his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth....Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

    And BTW, recall when I indicated angels likely mean the clouds. Look whom is gathering everyone together according to Mark 13:27..His angels. Hmmmm.

    5...his elect from the four winds, to the uttermost part of heaven....the dead in Christ who rise first.


    Let's look at all of these 5 things at one time.


    1...the Son of man in Matthew 24:30 is clearly meaning the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

    2...the Son of man in Matthew 24:30 is seem coming in the clouds, and so is He according to 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as well, since no one can get caught up to the clouds if no clouds are involved. But these clouds are likely not meaning literal, because if it were, that means the rapture could only occur on a cloudy day, and that some days there is not even a cloud in the sky. Obviously then, this isn't meaning literal clouds in this case. Personally I tend to think they are meaning angels. But even if that is incorrect, still don't think they are meaning literal clouds.

    3...Matthew 24:31 involves a trumpet, and so does 1 Corinthians 15:52.

    4...his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth....Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

    5...his elect from the four winds, to the uttermost part of heaven....the dead in Christ who rise first.

    So then, when do Pretribbers claim Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 is meaning? 7 years or so prior to the 2nd coming? Or 7 years or so after the alleged rapture of the church 7 years or so earlier?

    Either way, the above debunks a Pretrib rapture, since no matter how you look at it, Matthew 24:30 and Mark 13:27 can't be meaning anything other than the physical 2nd coming of Christ, and that I have already adequately shown it's meaning the exact same event as in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15.

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


    1 Thessalonians 4:16 *For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    Tell me these are not all referring to the exact same event.
    Tell us how they are? Just assuming it is so is not doctrine brother. Its on you to prove your claim not for us to disprove your assumptions.

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory....Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air
    This is your own creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    How can it get any more obvious than this, that whenever Matthew 24:30 and Mark 13:26 is meaning, so is 1 Thessalonians 4:17 meaning?
    Still not seeing the connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    And if we throw the following into the mix.

    1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    The dead rising somehow this is clearly missing in Matthew and Mark. But clearly present in 1 Thess.


    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Let's now look at all of these passages combined in order to point out all of the things that can be found in common with each other.

    Since Matthew 24:30 and Mark 13:26 are parallel accounts, we'll just use Matthew 24:30 then.

    In Matthew 24:30 it states...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Clearly these are the same

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    1 Thessalonians 4:17 it states...Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air

    Already at least two things in common.
    No where in the first 2 do we find any mention of the dead rising or being changed ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    1...the Son of man in Matthew 24:30 is clearly meaning the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
    This is possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    2...the Son of man in Matthew 24:30 is seem coming in the clouds, and so is He according to 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as well, since no one can get caught up to the clouds if no clouds are involved. But these clouds are likely not meaning literal, because if it were, that means the rapture could only occur on a cloudy day, and that some days there is not even a cloud in the sky. Obviously then, this isn't meaning literal clouds in this case. Personally I tend to think they are meaning angels. But even if that is incorrect, still don't think they are meaning literal clouds.
    Sorry the clouds are literal IMO the bible clearly states the DoTL is a day of Clouds. Joel 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

    Eze 34:12 there are more but w.e



    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Let's add some more context though.

    Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    Now we see there is a trumpet involved according to Matthew 24:31. And as luck would have it, 1 Corinthians 15:52 indicates there is a trumpet involved as well.
    Yes but clearly there are no Angels in 1 Corinthians 15:52 nor is the lord coming in the clouds. Also no Angels in 1 thess.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    So that makes at least 3 things in common at this point.

    3...Matthew 24:31 involves a trumpet, and so does 1 Corinthians 15:52.
    Not sure what your talking about you say a trumpet is invovled between Matthew and 1 Cor 15:52 this is 1 thing. Not 3. Trumpet is involved in 2 of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    But there's even more in common than just these 3 things thusfar.

    Mark 13:27 indicates shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    It seems to me the uttermost part of heaven might mean where the passed on saints would currently be residing, thus the dead in Christ who rise first, the one we are told God will bring with Him according to 1 Thessalonians 4:14. It also seems to me the uttermost part of the earth might mean where those who are alive and remain would be when the rapture occurs.
    Sorry what? This is clearly an assumption and i'm glad you stated it as such. =) *not provable*.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    4...his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth....Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

    And BTW, recall when I indicated angels likely mean the clouds. Look whom is gathering everyone together according to Mark 13:27..His angels. Hmmmm.
    Well if we believe Paul thinks angels are clouds i'm sure this arugment is possible but not provable.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    5...his elect from the four winds, to the uttermost part of heaven....the dead in Christ who rise first.
    One elect are being gathered by angels, but gathered to where exactly?? No mention of a ressurection in Matt or Marks passages or them meeting Jesus in the sky.


    Let's look at all of these 5 things at one time.


    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    1...the Son of man in Matthew 24:30 is clearly meaning the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
    The could both refer to the same person Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    2...the Son of man in Matthew 24:30 is seem coming in the clouds, and so is He according to 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as well, since no one can get caught up to the clouds if no clouds are involved. But these clouds are likely not meaning literal, because if it were, that means the rapture could only occur on a cloudy day, and that some days there is not even a cloud in the sky. Obviously then, this isn't meaning literal clouds in this case. Personally I tend to think they are meaning angels. But even if that is incorrect, still don't think they are meaning literal clouds.
    Well the bible says the DoTL is a day of clouds so sorry about this one but it clearly could mean actual clouds. Also Rev 14:14 says Jesus is sitting on a cloud during the Harvest but he clearly isn't mentioned as coming to earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    3...Matthew 24:31 involves a trumpet, and so does 1 Corinthians 15:52.
    Yup but the events in conjection with these trumpets are clearly different.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    4...his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth....Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
    Yup one the dead are being raised on the Living are being gathered. Clear difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    5...his elect from the four winds, to the uttermost part of heaven....the dead in Christ who rise first.
    Couldn't be more different.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    So then, when do Pretribbers claim Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 is meaning? 7 years or so prior to the 2nd coming? Or 7 years or so after the alleged rapture of the church 7 years or so earlier?
    Nope we believe these are different events, Go read the book of Rev is the Harvest in Rev 14:14 the same as his second coming in Rev 19:14? Clearly not.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Either way, the above debunks a Pretrib rapture, since no matter how you look at it, Matthew 24:30 and Mark 13:27 can't be meaning anything other than the physical 2nd coming of Christ, and that I have already adequately shown it's meaning the exact same event as in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15.
    This doesn't *debunk* Pre-trib but your've made the first step to *proving* post-trib which should be your mission anyway since you are post-trib

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post

    This doesn't *debunk* Pre-trib but your've made the first step to *proving* post-trib which should be your mission anyway since you are post-trib
    Nothing new then. Very few around here, if anyone at all, can ever admit when something has been debunked. The way it looks to me though, since Pretrib has once again been disproven, it's looking more and more like post trib is the correct position afterall. Even Prewrath would likely fall under post trib. Only Pretrib and mid trib wouldn't. And as to mid trib, it's obviously an unpopular view these days since you rarely see anyone teaching it. If Pretrib has therefore been dis-proven, how can that not equal post trib is proven instead? If Matt 24:30 is meaning the 2nd coming, and that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is also meaning the same event as Matt 24:30, how does that not automatically prove Post trib?

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Nothing new then. Very few around here, if anyone at all, can ever admit when something has been debunked. The way it looks to me though, since Pretrib has once again been disproven, it's looking more and more like post trib is the correct position afterall. Even Prewrath would likely fall under post trib. Only Pretrib and mid trib wouldn't. And as to mid trib, it's obviously an unpopular view these days since you rarely see anyone teaching it. If Pretrib has therefore been dis-proven, how can that not equal post trib is proven instead? If Matt 24:30 is meaning the 2nd coming, and that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is also meaning the same event as Matt 24:30, how does that not automatically prove Post trib?
    Do you mind addressing just one argument of mine then? Are Rev 14:14 and Rev 19:11 the same event in post trib?

    We can even take it a 3rd step are Rev 14:14 Rev 19:11 and Rev 20:4. All the same event in Post-trib?

    And lastly did you notice that in None of the passages you quoted do we ever find any mention of Jesus coming to earth? Just appearing in the clouds?

    Oh and btw Pre-Warth doesn't fall under Post-trib they believe the 6th seal is the rapture. Which i very different from post-trib who believe *????* is the rapture. There is no real verse i've yet to see in which all post-tribs agree on for the post-trib rapture. For the most part most don't even agree that the olive discoure is referring to the rapture =). But if your thread only convinces your post-trib brothers of what they already believe what's the point. You didn't prove anything yet you just told us the assumptions that lead to your conclusion E.G clouds mean angels? In what way is this concrete proof?

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Either way, the above debunks a Pretrib rapture, since no matter how you look at it, Matthew 24:30 and Mark 13:27 can't be meaning anything other than the physical 2nd coming of Christ, and that I have already adequately shown it's meaning the exact same event as in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15.
    Yes the same event...After all Paul taught according to the Lords own word regarding his coming and our gathering.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


    1 Thessalonians 4:16 *For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    Tell me these are not all referring to the exact same event.
    Okay. These are not the same event. Matt 24 and Mark 13 are the end of the second watch. 1 Thess is the end of the first watch.

    and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory....Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air

    How can it get any more obvious than this, that whenever Matthew 24:30 and Mark 13:26 is meaning, so is 1 Thessalonians 4:17 meaning?
    You are making a major assumption here. The 'dead in Christ' and the 'elect' are not the same people. The 'elect' is Israel. The dead in Christ is the church.

    Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob My servant’s sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

    And if we throw the following into the mix.

    1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    Why throw this into the mix? Death and Hades are swallowed up in victory at the end of the age, the end of the Millennium. This has nothing to do with the rapture, or the second coming.

    Let's now look at all of these passages combined in order to point out all of the things that can be found in common with each other.

    Since Matthew 24:30 and Mark 13:26 are parallel accounts, we'll just use Matthew 24:30 then.

    In Matthew 24:30 it states...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 it states...Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air

    Already at least two things in common.

    1...the Son of man in Matthew 24:30 is clearly meaning the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

    2...the Son of man in Matthew 24:30 is seem coming in the clouds, and so is He according to 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as well, since no one can get caught up to the clouds if no clouds are involved. But these clouds are likely not meaning literal, because if it were, that means the rapture could only occur on a cloudy day, and that some days there is not even a cloud in the sky. Obviously then, this isn't meaning literal clouds in this case. Personally I tend to think they are meaning angels. But even if that is incorrect, still don't think they are meaning literal clouds.
    Why not literal clouds? That is exactly how Christ ascended the first time, in literal clouds. Acts 1 tells us that is exactly how He will return. In fact, Isaiah tells us the clouds will be so thick as to block out the sun and moon. Also, when Jesus comes in the clouds, He will land on the mount of olives on His feet, from which He left the first time. 1 Thess 4 doesn't say anything about the Lord landing on the earth. Further, Jesus comes on a white horse another time. It should be obvious that the second coming is three distinct events. That is what Jesus told us in Luke 12. Three watches.

    Let's add some more context though.

    Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    Now we see there is a trumpet involved according to Matthew 24:31. And as luck would have it, 1 Corinthians 15:52 indicates there is a trumpet involved as well.
    Why does every trumpet need to refer to the same point in time? Do all 7 trumpets in Revelation happen at once? Trumpets are used with regularity.

    Again, the elect is Israel. The dead in Christ must already be gone. Or He has forsaken us, which He promised not to do.

    So that makes at least 3 things in common at this point.

    3...Matthew 24:31 involves a trumpet, and so does 1 Corinthians 15:52.

    But there's even more in common than just these 3 things thusfar.

    Mark 13:27 indicates shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    It seems to me the uttermost part of heaven might mean where the passed on saints would currently be residing, thus the dead in Christ who rise first, the one we are told God will bring with Him according to 1 Thessalonians 4:14. It also seems to me the uttermost part of the earth might mean where those who are alive and remain would be when the rapture occurs.

    4...his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth....Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

    And BTW, recall when I indicated angels likely mean the clouds. Look whom is gathering everyone together according to Mark 13:27..His angels. Hmmmm.

    5...his elect from the four winds, to the uttermost part of heaven....the dead in Christ who rise first.
    The elect isn't the church.

    Let's look at all of these 5 things at one time.


    1...the Son of man in Matthew 24:30 is clearly meaning the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
    It could be, yes. But, it could also not be. Our Father is also the Lord.

    2...the Son of man in Matthew 24:30 is seem coming in the clouds, and so is He according to 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as well, since no one can get caught up to the clouds if no clouds are involved. But these clouds are likely not meaning literal, because if it were, that means the rapture could only occur on a cloudy day, and that some days there is not even a cloud in the sky. Obviously then, this isn't meaning literal clouds in this case. Personally I tend to think they are meaning angels. But even if that is incorrect, still don't think they are meaning literal clouds.
    In Greek, their terms for heavens are divided between cloud level, and above cloud level. The entire earth could be cloudy on the day of rapture, but I think Paul was referring to the level in which the Lord will descend. Again showing that the 1 Thess 4 event does not involve Jesus coming all the way to the earth.

    3...Matthew 24:31 involves a trumpet, and so does 1 Corinthians 15:52.
    There is an appointed time of trumpets every year. Seven trumpets in Revelation. They are used often.

    4...his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth....Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
    The gathering of the elect is one thing. They are gathered into the wilderness of Moab. Why then would the church meet Him in the air? Why are the elect gathered in one way, and the church gathered in another way? Different events?
    5...his elect from the four winds, to the uttermost part of heaven....the dead in Christ who rise first.

    So then, when do Pretribbers claim Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 is meaning? 7 years or so prior to the 2nd coming? Or 7 years or so after the alleged rapture of the church 7 years or so earlier?
    I don't subscribe to the 7 year trib deal. I notice you focused exclusively on the gathering of the elect when Jesus comes in the clouds. You left out the other coming mention in the OD.

    Matt 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

    Luke 17:24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day....29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. [Not when the Son of Man comes.]

    31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

    37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

    So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

    Either way, the above debunks a Pretrib rapture, since no matter how you look at it, Matthew 24:30 and Mark 13:27 can't be meaning anything other than the physical 2nd coming of Christ, and that I have already adequately shown it's meaning the exact same event as in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15.
    I see your point, but you are beginning with the assumption that all these things are the same. 1 Cor 15 is the end of the world. 1 Thess 4 is the rapture. The OD is about the second coming to the earth, as well the rapture when we include the whole discourse.

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Okay. These are not the same event. Matt 24 and Mark 13 are the end of the second watch. 1 Thess is the end of the first watch.



    You are making a major assumption here. The 'dead in Christ' and the 'elect' are not the same people. The 'elect' is Israel. The dead in Christ is the church.

    Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob My servant’s sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.



    Why throw this into the mix? Death and Hades are swallowed up in victory at the end of the age, the end of the Millennium. This has nothing to do with the rapture, or the second coming.

    Let's now look at all of these passages combined in order to point out all of the things that can be found in common with each other.



    Why not literal clouds? That is exactly how Christ ascended the first time, in literal clouds. Acts 1 tells us that is exactly how He will return. In fact, Isaiah tells us the clouds will be so thick as to block out the sun and moon. Also, when Jesus comes in the clouds, He will land on the mount of olives on His feet, from which He left the first time. 1 Thess 4 doesn't say anything about the Lord landing on the earth. Further, Jesus comes on a white horse another time. It should be obvious that the second coming is three distinct events. That is what Jesus told us in Luke 12. Three watches.



    Why does every trumpet need to refer to the same point in time? Do all 7 trumpets in Revelation happen at once? Trumpets are used with regularity.

    Again, the elect is Israel. The dead in Christ must already be gone. Or He has forsaken us, which He promised not to do.


    The elect isn't the church.



    It could be, yes. But, it could also not be. Our Father is also the Lord.


    In Greek, their terms for heavens are divided between cloud level, and above cloud level. The entire earth could be cloudy on the day of rapture, but I think Paul was referring to the level in which the Lord will descend. Again showing that the 1 Thess 4 event does not involve Jesus coming all the way to the earth.



    There is an appointed time of trumpets every year. Seven trumpets in Revelation. They are used often.



    The gathering of the elect is one thing. They are gathered into the wilderness of Moab. Why then would the church meet Him in the air? Why are the elect gathered in one way, and the church gathered in another way? Different events?


    I don't subscribe to the 7 year trib deal. I notice you focused exclusively on the gathering of the elect when Jesus comes in the clouds. You left out the other coming mention in the OD.

    Matt 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

    Luke 17:24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day....29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. [Not when the Son of Man comes.]

    31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

    37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

    So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”



    I see your point, but you are beginning with the assumption that all these things are the same. 1 Cor 15 is the end of the world. 1 Thess 4 is the rapture. The OD is about the second coming to the earth, as well the rapture when we include the whole discourse.
    Too much to address here atm. But one thing in particular, I don't share your view that Jesus comes in 3 different watches. You talk about me basing things on assumptions, but you're not? Most everyone else when they read the passage about the watches you are referring to, are not then going to conclude this means Jesus comes in 3 different watches.

    Luke 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
    38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
    39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
    40*Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

    Verse 40 states...Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. according to your understanding, I guess this means they have up to 3 chances to be ready. If they are not ready in the first watch when Jesus comes, oh well, there's still the 2nd and 3rd watch they can try to be ready during. And when Jesus comes yet again in the 2nd watch, and they're still not ready in this watch either, that's strike two then, but they still have one more watch to be ready in. And if they are not ready in that one either when Jesus comes yet a third time, well we all know what that means...strike 3..you're out. And you find all of that reasonable?

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Too much to address here atm. But one thing in particular, I don't share your view that Jesus comes in 3 different watches. You talk about me basing things on assumptions, but you're not? Most everyone else when they read the passage about the watches you are referring to, are not then going to conclude this means Jesus comes in 3 different watches.

    Luke 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
    38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
    39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
    40*Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

    Verse 40 states...Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. according to your understanding, I guess this means they have up to 3 chances to be ready. If they are not ready in the first watch when Jesus comes, oh well, there's still the 2nd and 3rd watch they can try to be ready during. And when Jesus comes yet again in the 2nd watch, and they're still not ready in this watch either, that's strike two then, but they still have one more watch to be ready in. And if they are not ready in that one either when Jesus comes yet a third time, well we all know what that means...strike 3..you're out. And you find all of that reasonable?
    I don't believe it personally but it is Once more biblically supported =) and you can actually find all 3 in the book of Rev. Say what you want about Tonyp but he knows his bible. Here's how i personally Find 3 myself though Tony looks at it differently because we view Rev 4-11 and Rev 12-18 Different. I can find 3 watches in Rev 12:1-10 with the Manchild being caught up to heaven and the brethren being present in Heaven. Rev 14:14 the Harvest of the Earth by the Son of Man on a cloud. And Rev 19:11 the second coming of Jesus on a white Horse. With this being Said specifically about the *3rd watch* In my view of this belief Rev 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.[g]

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I don't believe it personally but it is Once more biblically supported =) and you can actually find all 3 in the book of Rev. Say what you want about Tonyp but he knows his bible.
    I never said nor ever thought at any time TonyP doesn't know his Bible. Plenty of people know their Bible, doesn't make them correct all the time though. And since you said you don't believe it personally, yet indicate you can actually find all 3 in the book of Rev, why then don't you believe it personally? Mind sharing where all 3 can be found in Revelation?

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I never said nor ever thought at any time TonyP doesn't know his Bible. Plenty of people know their Bible, doesn't make them correct all the time though. And since you said you don't believe it personally, yet indicate you can actually find all 3 in the book of Rev, why then don't you believe it personally? Mind sharing where all 3 can be found in Revelation?
    I did =) and its because i believe something else =), I like to keep my options open which is why i like good debate, I've told you before my Goal is not to prove or disprove anything Just to understand how and why people believe what they do. Sometimes i even argue for post-trib against pre-trib. Unless you can understand others you can never hope to convince others. Which is why its sad to me that i've been *labeled* pre-trib. I just personally don't accept some of the assumptions nessary to be post-trib (E.G the last trump and the 7th trump are the same). I haven't had a chance to actually debate a pre-wrath and mid-trib rarely appears, but from what i understand i actually believe just like they do (Rev 12 is the Rapture) I just don't believe is comes chronologically after Rev 11 mainly because as Blur posted in another OP i Know that the Rev 12 sign is going to appear this year ( i'll hedge with a Possibly) and clearly the first 7 trumpets haven't been blown.

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I don't believe it personally but it is Once more biblically supported =) and you can actually find all 3 in the book of Rev. Say what you want about Tonyp but he knows his bible. Here's how i personally Find 3 myself though Tony looks at it differently because we view Rev 4-11 and Rev 12-18 Different. I can find 3 watches in Rev 12:1-10 with the Manchild being caught up to heaven and the brethren being present in Heaven. Rev 14:14 the Harvest of the Earth by the Son of Man on a cloud. And Rev 19:11 the second coming of Jesus on a white Horse. With this being Said specifically about the *3rd watch* In my view of this belief Rev 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.[g]
    BTW...

    Luke 12:38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.


    Why does the text say 'if' rather than 'when'? Such as... And WHEN HE shall come in the second watch, AND WHEN HE SHALL come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

    We then wouldn't be having this little debate, would we?

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    BTW...

    Luke 12:38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.


    Why does the text say 'if' rather than 'when'? Such as... And WHEN HE shall come in the second watch, AND WHEN HE SHALL come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

    We then wouldn't be having this little debate, would we?
    I might counter with a different question? If he only comes once why are there 3 watches?

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Too much to address here atm. But one thing in particular, I don't share your view that Jesus comes in 3 different watches. You talk about me basing things on assumptions, but you're not? Most everyone else when they read the passage about the watches you are referring to, are not then going to conclude this means Jesus comes in 3 different watches.

    Luke 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
    38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
    39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
    40*Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

    Verse 40 states...Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. according to your understanding, I guess this means they have up to 3 chances to be ready. If they are not ready in the first watch when Jesus comes, oh well, there's still the 2nd and 3rd watch they can try to be ready during. And when Jesus comes yet again in the 2nd watch, and they're still not ready in this watch either, that's strike two then, but they still have one more watch to be ready in. And if they are not ready in that one either when Jesus comes yet a third time, well we all know what that means...strike 3..you're out. And you find all of that reasonable?
    That is what Jesus said. That is also what Revelation lays out. Three watches.

    Notice that it is only those found worthy in the first watch that go to the wedding feast, which takes place in heaven in Rev 19. The other two watches are blessed if they are watching, but they don't go to the feast. After the Nisan 3 rapture, in the 6th seal, there is a whole 49 year Jubilee until Jesus comes on the clouds to gather the elect into the wilderness at the 7th trumpet. Then Jesus returns to heaven to cast out satan and there is 1260 days of the beast. During which, the wedding takes place. After which, Jesus returns again on the white horse. Three watches for His comings.

    Ask yourself this. If Jesus was actually talking about 3 hour periods at night, a global event would not be possible. There is no time when it is night over all the earth. The second and third watches are just that, watches for the Lord. Here is what we are told to do at the beginning of the watches if we miss one. "Oh well" isn't the right way to see it.

    Lamentations 2:19 “Arise, cry out in the night, At the beginning of the watches; Pour out your heart like water before the face of the Lord. Lift your hands toward Him For the life of your young children, Who faint from hunger at the head of every street.”

    They get progressively worse. Don't miss the first one!

    Also, Revelation itself supports three comings several times. In one case, Jesus treads the winepress in Rev 14. Isaiah 63 records that Jesus treads the winepress alone outside of Bozrah staining His garments. Now, in Rev 19, Jesus' robe has already been dipped in blood before coming on the white horse. That means Jesus has already been on earth before this point.

    Further, without a rapture, how do you explain this:

    Matthew 21:31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said to Him, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you.

    How does one group of people enter the kingdom of God BEFORE others? If the rapture and return happen at the same time, this wouldn't be possible. Further still....

    Psalm 14:2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. 3 They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one....5 There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous.

    How do we reconcile the fact the God is with the generation of the righteous in the very same text where there is no righteous. How can this be explained outside of a rapture of the righteous where the generation of the righteous are with God while all the wicked are on earth?

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I did =) and its because i believe something else =), I like to keep my options open which is why i like good debate, I've told you before my Goal is not to prove or disprove anything Just to understand how and why people believe what they do. Sometimes i even argue for post-trib against pre-trib. Unless you can understand others you can never hope to convince others. Which is why its sad to me that i've been *labeled* pre-trib. I just personally don't accept some of the assumptions nessary to be post-trib (E.G the last trump and the 7th trump are the same). I haven't had a chance to actually debate a pre-wrath and mid-trib rarely appears, but from what i understand i actually believe just like they do (Rev 12 is the Rapture) I just don't believe is comes chronologically after Rev 11 mainly because as Blur posted in another OP i Know that the Rev 12 sign is going to appear this year ( i'll hedge with a Possibly) and clearly the first 7 trumpets haven't been blown.
    To even try and understand others though, is to then try and test whether their conclusions add up or not, which includes do their conclusions make logical sense or not. But of course though, what might seem illogical to one person might seem perfectly logical to another person.

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