Page 3 of 11 FirstFirst 1234567891011 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 156

Thread: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    3,591
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Clouds are not literal they are those which return with him in white linen

  2. #32

    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Clouds are not literal they are those which return with him in white linen
    So in this passage Jesus is sitting on those in white linen?

    Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

    And here Jesus is returning to Heaven with the Saints in White Linen?

    Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    15,628

    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    So in this passage Jesus is sitting on those in white linen?

    Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
    Why are you assuming that is meaning Jesus?

    Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

    According to this passage it is the angels who are the reapers. Jesus isn't an angel is He? And besides, since when would Jesus have angels telling Him what and when to do something? I thought it was the other way around myself?

    Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
    15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
    16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

    This shows another angel crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap, thus this angel telling him that sat on the cloud when and what to do.
    This verse also shows it is the time of the harvest and the earth was reaped. According to Matthew 13:39 that makes the harvest the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels, including upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man.

    Also according to the parable...

    Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;


    This says the Son of man shall send forth his angels. If in Revelation 14:14, upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, is meaning Jesus, then why is Matthew 13 depicting an entirely different picture altogether? Nowhere that I can see in Matt 13 is Jesus Himself ever doing any of the reaping during the harvest. But if He is, can you point this out in this chapter?

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    15,628

    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Clouds are not literal they are those which return with him in white linen
    This is for sure a possibility that it could be meaning those in white linen. One thing that's for certain, you are correct that the clouds aren't literal in this case.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    15,628

    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    Let me give you my understanding of Matt 24:30-31.
    My views on the rapture are greatly enhanced and prior views confirmed when I adopted a consistent interpretational view of the words translated as the "coming" of the lord. Parousia and erchomai. Some introductory scriptures would be.
    1. As the lightning shine the from the east unto the west so shall also the parousia/coming/rapture of the son of man be.
    2. Yet shall see me no more till ye say "blessed is he who erchomai/comes (in the advent) in the name of the Lord".

    With that being said, the rapture will not be a secret event. If they shall say unto you behold he is in the desert or in the secret chambers go not after them. There are a series of logical arguments that need to be considered when trying to understand verses 29-31 of Matt 24.

    V. 30-Then shall appear [after the powers of the heavens are shaken] the sign of the son of man in heaven [THE RAPTURE] and then [AT or AFTER the sign of the rapture] shall all the tribes of the earth mourn [Isa 11:11ff, 27:13; In that day shall the Lord set his hand again the 2nd time to bring again the captivity of the children of israel from the 4 corners of the earth with the great sound of a trumpet] and you (who remain) shall see the Son of man coming/erchomai/advent in the clouds with great power and glory. And he shall send forth his angels to [gather his wheat into his barn to shine with brightness in his kingdom] gather his elect [chosen ones written in the book of life which were ready to perish] in the 4 winds of earth. And when the last [ of the 7 trumpets until the last] great trumpet [of the great last trumpet of the jubilee] shall sound then shall this mortal put on immortality and this corruptible shall put on incorruption in the kingdom of God.

    The rapture of the church will begin the gathering of the harvest of the first fruits of the two loaves of God's people, Jews and Gentiles with the main harvest to take place at the end when Jesus returns at the 2nd advent. The sounding of the great trumpet will begin the harvest and the reign of judgment by the Son!
    Blessings to all who keeps the sayings and the prophecy of his book!
    GB
    I find this very interesting. If one were to label your position, such as Pretrib, midtrib, prewrath, or post trib, which one bests fits your position here? Even though I find this position interesting, can't say that I'm exactly following everything you said above.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    15,628

    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Some also believe that Matthew 24:31 is the rapture

    And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his ELECT from the four winds,from one end of the heavens to the other.

    This is not the rapture either. Matthew, Mark and Luke tell us that the ELECT are the chosen Jews that God saved during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. 1.1 million Jews were killed during the siege on Jerusalem and 97 000 people were taken captives.

    There's a number of things I disagree about in your post. So I will start with the above for now.

    Let's just say you are correct. What then would a trumpet have to do with anything around 70 AD or so? The text does say this...And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. Notice that it says a great sound.

    Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Marty, in case you haven't noticed, around here not too many, if anyone at all, agrees with your interpretation of Matthew 24:31. And that includes both Amils and Premils. Why are you so convinced you are the one correct here, but the rest of us, we got it all wrong big time? Clearly the majority is not always correct, yet clearly, there are many times when the majority is correct, this undoubtedly being one of those times.

    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    I already realize you don't take any of this literal. I don't necessarily either. But what in the world does those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken...have to do with "the ELECT are the chosen Jews that God saved during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD"?

  7. #37

    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Why are you assuming that is meaning Jesus?
    Not assuming its clearly Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

    According to this passage it is the angels who are the reapers. Jesus isn't an angel is He? And besides, since when would Jesus have angels telling Him what and when to do something? I thought it was the other way around myself?
    Notice where the angel comes from, and remember that angels are *messengers*. Also notice there are 2 harvest one is clearly done by angels which means according to the parable the firrst one happens before the nd of the age and seems to be done by the Son of Man personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
    15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
    16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

    This shows another angel crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap, thus this angel telling him that sat on the cloud when and what to do.
    This verse also shows it is the time of the harvest and the earth was reaped. According to Matthew 13:39 that makes the harvest the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels, including upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man.

    Also according to the parable...

    Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;


    This says the Son of man shall send forth his angels. If in Revelation 14:14, upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, is meaning Jesus, then why is Matthew 13 depicting an entirely different picture altogether? Nowhere that I can see in Matt 13 is Jesus Himself ever doing any of the reaping during the harvest. But if He is, can you point this out in this chapter?
    Sorry its not a different picture, you just need to pay close attention Matt 13:41 clearly says the angels gather the tares for burning. I'll highlight. This is clarly what we find in Rev 14:17. So once more i'll ask you we have the Son of man on the clouds gathering the harvest according to your op this = Rapture so where is Jesus taking the harvest? And does this mean there are two second coming/ Rap mentioned in the book of Rev in a post-trib viewpoint?

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    15,628

    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Not assuming its clearly Jesus.

    Notice where the angel comes from, and remember that angels are *messengers*.

    Sorry its not a different picture, you just need to pay close attention Matt 13:41 clearly says the angels gather the tares for burning. I'll highlight. This is clarly what we find in Rev 14:17. So once more i'll ask you we have the Son of man on the clouds gathering the harvest according to your op this = Rapture so where is Jesus taking the harvest? And does this mean there are two second coming the book of Rev in a post-trib viewpoint?
    I'll have to think on this a bit and try and get back to this later. I don't have any satisfactory answers to your questions atm. BTW, so this mean you are still convinced this is meaning Jesus in that passage, despite Matt 13 indicating not only does Jesus send His angels, His angels are the reapers during the harvest?

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    15,628

    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post

    Notice where the angel comes from, and remember that angels are *messengers*. Also notice there are 2 harvest one is clearly done by angels which means according to the parable the firrst one happens before the nd of the age and seems to be done by the Son of Man personally.
    How can either one happen before the end of the age according to Matt 13? And how can one of the harvests be done by Jesus Himself, also according to Matt 13?

    Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
    38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43 *Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


    Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


    Jesus is the speaker in verse 30. He then says...and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers...meaning His angels according to Matthew 13:39.

    Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
    15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
    16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

    If you are correct this is meaning Jesus in verse 14, then prove that according to what I submitted above, per Matt 13.

  10. #40

    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    How can either one happen before the end of the age according to Matt 13? And how can one of the harvests be done by Jesus Himself, also according to Matt 13?

    Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
    38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43 *Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


    Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


    Jesus is the speaker in verse 30. He then says...and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers...meaning His angels according to Matthew 13:39.

    Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
    15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
    16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

    If you are correct this is meaning Jesus in verse 14, then prove that according to what I submitted above, per Matt 13.
    Easy these are 2 separate harvest. Matthew 13:30-41 is speaking of the second harvest at the end of the age, what the book of Rev calls the grape harvest which is clearly done by angels. Rev 14:14 is a separate harvest done by the son of man alone. I can do this because i believe the rapture and the second coming are the separate events you believe they are the same. So you have a few options in my view.

    1. Believe there is a second Son of Man who rides on Clouds and wears a conquerors crown (good luck with that one)
    2. Believe the Rapture and the second coming are 2 separate events but both clearly post-trib. (possible and this is what i usually argue personally)
    3. Believe both these events are the second coming but depicted in different ways with Jesus riding different things wearing different things and doing different things, but somehow still the same event.

    Like i said i Usually go with number 2, when i argue for post-trib. But no offense to you and the post-trib here but you guys IMO need to test your doctrine i mean you guys are the majority but the number of Divergent views from your camp is huge.

    My only point here is that the bible clearly separates the Harvest from the Second coming, why is that if they are as you claim "The same event". Also i still want to know your opinion about where the harvest is taken in Rev 14:14 and also if you don't mind where the harvest is taken in Matt 13 =).

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    15,628

    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

    I've been rethinking this passage, then it dawned on me, that this may not be meaning as in the tares are gathered first, as in chronologically preceding the gathering of the wheat. For one, it says 'but' rather than 'then', in regards to the wheat in my barn.

    Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them

    What this might basically be saying then. Gather them altogether first, then after they have been gathered, bind them in bundles to burn them. Which then doesn't necessarily mean the gathering of the tares precedes the gathering of the wheat. As to gather them first, that seems to be in the context of what is to happen to the tares. They have to be gathered first before they can be bound in bundles in order to be burned.

    Not claiming I'm correct here...I just don't know if I am or not, but at least this way this wouldn't be contradicting a post trib rapture since obviously the rapture would precede whatever is to happen to the tares.

    In this same chapter we see this.

    Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
    48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
    49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
    50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    I don't see where this shows the bad fish, which apparently represent the tares in this case, that they are being gathered first.

  12. #42

    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    So yes your saying Rev 14:14 and Rev 19:11 are the same? Yes or No? Also where is the Harvest taken? I still see no answer? You answer is basically.
    Yes, the SAME. Rev 14.14 and 19.11 are the SAME.
    Rev 14.14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

    Rev 19.11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
    king of kings and lord of lords.

    I'm only speaking for myself--I have answered this point repeatedly. Very recently, in post #22 I said "*all* of these references to the coming of the Son of Man relate to one another." That means they are the SAME EVENT, just put in different words to convey different ideas about the SAME EVENT.

    The "harvest," mentioned in Rev 14 is the *end of the age,* as indicated by Jesus in Matthew 13.39. So the Son of Man sitting on the cloud with a sickle represents the *end of the age* and the Postrib coming of the Son of Man.

    The "war," mentioned in Rev 19 is also the end of the age, and the SAME EVENT, spoken of in Rev 14. This is the Battle of Armageddon, at which time the SAME Son of Man comes with the clouds of heaven. He is not here called the Son of Man, but he is identified as the Word of God with a sword coming out of his mouth. Rev 1.13-16 portrays the same individual. So the coming of the Son of Man with the clouds and to make war is central to the whole book of Revelation.

    Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
    and “every eye will see him,
    even those who pierced him”;
    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
    So shall it be! Amen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    *Prolepses*

    pro·lep·sis
    prōˈlepsəs/
    noun
    noun: prolepses

    • 1.
      RHETORIC
      the anticipation and answering of possible objections in rhetorical speech.

    • 2.
      the representation of a thing as existing before it actually does or did so, as in he was a dead man when he entered.


    This doesn't answer any of my questions its just a noun you say alot when you don't want to actually answer questions. The fact of the Matter is Rev 19:11 and Rev 14:14 are clearly stated by the bible as seprate events you made this claim here.



    I'm just pointing out the Bible clearly seperates these events. Your answer is *Prolepses*.

    This is clearly not an answer its a noun. Your saying that Jesus comes 1 times in 4 different ways with 3 different appearances doing something different each time, and your argument is literally the word *Prolepses* to me this is very inadequate for someone trying to understand the post-trib position and why you believe what you believe. The bible clearly separates these events for a reason if you don't actually want to use your brain to figure out why thats fine but don't claim the word Prolepses is an answer its not. It a cop out, that you use alot.
    I mention the word "prolepsis" so much because it helped me personally to understand that the book of Revelation is not about a single chronology. There is not one vision, but many visions. They each have their own chronology. So how can so many visions convey a single reality? It is because they are detailing the same event. A prolepsis does not depend upon a chronology, since it is a prophetic vision of the future. It appears to happen in the now--along a current chronological sequence. But in reality, the *now* aspect of Revelation is simply a narrative to accompany the many visions. Even a single vision is not necessarily linked to a single chronology, since within a single vision there can be also many smaller visions, each with its own chronological sequence.

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    2,103
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Clouds are not literal they are those which return with him in white linen
    Have you seen this?

    Psalm 104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pitt Meadows b.c.
    Posts
    2,958
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    There's a number of things I disagree about in your post. So I will start with the above for now.

    Let's just say you are correct. What then would a trumpet have to do with anything around 70 AD or so? The text does say this...And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. Notice that it says a great sound.

    Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Marty, in case you haven't noticed, around here not too many, if anyone at all, agrees with your interpretation of Matthew 24:31. And that includes both Amils and Premils. Why are you so convinced you are the one correct here, but the rest of us, we got it all wrong big time? Clearly the majority is not always correct, yet clearly, there are many times when the majority is correct, this undoubtedly being one of those times.

    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    I already realize you don't take any of this literal. I don't necessarily either. But what in the world does those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken...have to do with "the ELECT are the chosen Jews that God saved during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD"?

    When great things happened and kings came trumpets were blown.

    Other people do agree I didn't come up with this by myself. There are books on it. History proved Jesus to be right when He said which did convert people and other non Christians have written books saying that Jesus proved himself to be a false prophet because they miss understood His coming

    It was judgment on Jerusalem the elect just escaped it. Peter even confirms that it was the days on the sun'moon and stars in Acts chapter 2

  15. #45

    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, the SAME. Rev 14.14 and 19.11 are the SAME.
    Rev 14.14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

    Rev 19.11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
    king of kings and lord of lords.

    I'm only speaking for myself--I have answered this point repeatedly. Very recently, in post #22 I said "*all* of these references to the coming of the Son of Man relate to one another." That means they are the SAME EVENT, just put in different words to convey different ideas about the SAME EVENT.

    The "harvest," mentioned in Rev 14 is the *end of the age,* as indicated by Jesus in Matthew 13.39. So the Son of Man sitting on the cloud with a sickle represents the *end of the age* and the Postrib coming of the Son of Man.

    The "war," mentioned in Rev 19 is also the end of the age, and the SAME EVENT, spoken of in Rev 14. This is the Battle of Armageddon, at which time the SAME Son of Man comes with the clouds of heaven. He is not here called the Son of Man, but he is identified as the Word of God with a sword coming out of his mouth. Rev 1.13-16 portrays the same individual. So the coming of the Son of Man with the clouds and to make war is central to the whole book of Revelation.

    Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
    and “every eye will see him,
    even those who pierced him”;
    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
    So shall it be! Amen.


    I mention the word "prolepsis" so much because it helped me personally to understand that the book of Revelation is not about a single chronology. There is not one vision, but many visions. They each have their own chronology. So how can so many visions convey a single reality? It is because they are detailing the same event. A prolepsis does not depend upon a chronology, since it is a prophetic vision of the future. It appears to happen in the now--along a current chronological sequence. But in reality, the *now* aspect of Revelation is simply a narrative to accompany the many visions. Even a single vision is not necessarily linked to a single chronology, since within a single vision there can be also many smaller visions, each with its own chronological sequence.
    So your claiming that Both the grape harvest (which the bible clearly says Jesus himself treads) and Wheat harvest happen at the same time only with Jesus at one point wearing 1 Crown and Alone, and the second time wearing his many crowns (with the Armies of Heaven) and treading the grape harvest outside the city with the Armies of Heaven? And you base this on "prolepsis" and the idea that the book of Revelations has no chronological sequence even within what you call the *smaller visions* you believe are present =). I believe I got that straight. To be fair your the only Post-tribber that actually has an answer for this. Personally i find it as i stated *inadequate* but you do have an answer like usual =). I just wanted to point out if these were *separate events* which quite clearly they could be since the bible clearly mentions 2 separate harvests and clearly mentions it separate from the events in Rev 19 it can easily be argued as i personally do that these are 2 separate events =).

    Oh btw where does Jesus take the harvest?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Discussion Had a dream, rapture/second coming related.. left a lasting mark on me.. wanted to sh
    By luvmystinkyboy07 in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: May 30th 2014, 03:13 PM
  2. Replies: 21
    Last Post: Dec 6th 2011, 02:59 PM
  3. Coming in the Clouds
    By BroRog in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Dec 4th 2009, 01:38 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •