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Thread: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

  1. #46
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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Clouds are not literal they are those which return with him in white linen
    Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

    If the clouds are not literal, did saints in white linen receive Jesus 2000 years ago? He comes in like manner.

  2. #47

    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I find this very interesting. If one were to label your position, such as Pretrib, midtrib, prewrath, or post trib, which one bests fits your position here? Even though I find this position interesting, can't say that I'm exactly following everything you said above.
    I would probably say prewrath mid tribulation time for the rapture. Just to clarify something. Just as the gathering of the church began with the end of the children of Israel's favor with God [but not with total exclusivity] and "ends" with favor being restored [tho with the reservation of exclusivity] to the children of Israel when the first trumpet heralds the rapture. To quote scripture "blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. The last trumpet shall herald the kingdom of God.

    Blessings to all who keeps the sayings and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

  3. #48

    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    So your claiming that Both the grape harvest (which the bible clearly says Jesus himself treads) and Wheat harvest happen at the same time only with Jesus at one point wearing 1 Crown and Alone, and the second time wearing his many crowns (with the Armies of Heaven) and treading the grape harvest outside the city with the Armies of Heaven? And you base this on "prolepsis" and the idea that the book of Revelations has no chronological sequence even within what you call the *smaller visions* you believe are present =). I believe I got that straight. To be fair your the only Post-tribber that actually has an answer for this. Personally i find it as i stated *inadequate* but you do have an answer like usual =). I just wanted to point out if these were *separate events* which quite clearly they could be since the bible clearly mentions 2 separate harvests and clearly mentions it separate from the events in Rev 19 it can easily be argued as i personally do that these are 2 separate events =).

    Oh btw where does Jesus take the harvest?
    I gave you the reference in my previous post--Matt 13.39...

    The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

    40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil."

    As much as I resent your attitude towards my positions I do appreciate the fact you recognize I have been answering you. I do hold to a somewhat unique position among other Postribbers. But I absolutely appreciate the Postribbers here who refuse to *add* to the book of Revelation and read into John's translation into heaven in Rev 4 a Pretrib Rapture of the Church. I appreciate those who refuse to *read into* the Revelation a Pretrib Rapture where the Philadelphia church was spared some of the tribulations of their own time. I just don't think it wise to add in any way to the book of Revelation a major doctrine such as the Pretrib Rapture.

    I see nothing inconsonant about seeing Jesus' coming being portrayed in several different revelations within the book of Revelation? And if indeed they are separate visions I see no reason to view it as "funny" that they cannot be strung along in a single chronology like beads on a string? I already showed you, if I remember correctly, how Joseph saw not one but two dreams--they were not in chronological sequence, but both represented the same thing. Same thing in the book of Daniel. Why not the book of Revelation?

    There is, of course, some chronological sequence to the book of Revelation because there is a single narrative. But the narrative does not equal a single vision. It is a string of visions, with a few major visions, and enclosed within them other smaller visions. Nothing unusual about this. They are often prolepses, and I share this because unless you understand this you may think Jesus comes several different times. He doesn't. He comes once, and every portrayal of his coming relates back to the coming of the Son of Man with the clouds in the book of Daniel, ch. 7. Jesus drew upon it, as did Paul. The Son of Man comes with the clouds, and he comes to make war--the Battle of Armageddon. A sword comes out of his mouth because he is the word of God, speaking the words of judgment against the Antichrist--the "little horn."

  4. #49
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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

    If the clouds are not literal, did saints in white linen receive Jesus 2000 years ago? He comes in like manner.
    I can see angels receiving Him 2000 years ago and escorting him back to heaven. But not saints in white linen though. Now that you mentioned this, even though I initially told Ross that that was a possibility, I now no longer think that and will just stick with my initial hunch, the clouds likely represent angels.

  5. #50
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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I gave you the reference in my previous post--Matt 13.39...

    The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

    40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil."

    As much as I resent your attitude towards my positions I do appreciate the fact you recognize I have been answering you. I do hold to a somewhat unique position among other Postribbers.
    I am still curious where you believe the Son of man takes the harvest.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    But I absolutely appreciate the Postribbers here who refuse to *add* to the book of Revelation and read into John's translation into heaven in Rev 4 a Pretrib Rapture of the Church. I appreciate those who refuse to *read into* the Revelation a Pretrib Rapture where the Philadelphia church was spared some of the tribulations of their own time. I just don't think it wise to add in any way to the book of Revelation a major doctrine such as the Pretrib Rapture.
    Actually I don't believe any Pre-trib here do what your claiming here, so thats fine, i also don't believe John's translation into Heaven in Rev 4 is the Pre-trib Rapture nor do i believe the church of Philadelphia was an example of the rapture. However it is clear that you post-trib Add a rapture into Rev 11:15-19 and Rev 19:11-14 when neither is clearly stated. The fact of the matter is there is no post-trib rapture in the book of Rev.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I see nothing inconsonant about seeing Jesus' coming being portrayed in several different revelations within the book of Revelation?
    Personally i don't see his coming being portrayed *several* different ways just one.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    And if indeed they are separate visions I see no reason to view it as "funny" that they cannot be strung along in a single chronology like beads on a string? I already showed you, if I remember correctly, how Joseph saw not one but two dreams--they were not in chronological sequence, but both represented the same thing. Same thing in the book of Daniel. Why not the book of Revelation?
    Possible.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    There is, of course, some chronological sequence to the book of Revelation because there is a single narrative.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    But the narrative does not equal a single vision. It is a string of visions, with a few major visions, and enclosed within them other smaller visions. Nothing unusual about this. They are often prolepses, and I share this because unless you understand this you may think Jesus comes several different times. He doesn't. He comes once, and every portrayal of his coming relates back to the coming of the Son of Man with the clouds in the book of Daniel, ch. 7. Jesus drew upon it, as did Paul. The Son of Man comes with the clouds, and he comes to make war--the Battle of Armageddon. A sword comes out of his mouth because he is the word of God, speaking the words of judgment against the Antichrist--the "little horn."
    Not sure what you mean here Daniel 7 clearly says Jesus goes to heaven with the clouds not *comes to earth to make war* the only conclusion i can draw based when reading Rev 14:14 in Light of Daniel 7:14 is that Jesus takes the harvest and goes before the Father.

    13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

    This is where he receives the things mentioned here

    14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    And that's why when he comes back in Rev 19:11 he looks like this. Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.

    But that's Just my clear understanding based on Daniel 7 and Rev 14:14-20. Jesus takes the Harvest to Heaven receives his kingdoms and comes back to take procession of his kingdom.

    Still i will ask you again where do you believe Jesus takes the Harvest?

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Jesuslovesus said
    To be fair your the only Post-tribber that actually has an answer for this.
    An answer for what? I have answered everything that you have asked me. Maybe you haven't asked me yet.

  7. #52
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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post

    But that's Just my clear understanding based on Daniel 7 and Rev 14:14-20. Jesus takes the Harvest to Heaven receives his kingdoms and comes back to take procession of his kingdom.
    Now it's starting to become clearer to me how you have been interpreting Dan 7:13-14 this entire time. I def don't agree with this if so.

    Just to make sure I am understanding you somewhat correctly, the following is basically what you're saying, right?

    The harvest in Rev 14:14-20 to you is meaning the Pretrib rapture of the church, and that Dan 7:13-14 is Jesus returning to heaven with the church in the clouds, then He is given power, and glory, and a kingdom, etc. And if so, since the alleged Pretrib rapture hasn't occurred as of yet, logic says as we speak, Jesus has not at this time went before the Father to receive power, glory, and a kingdom for Himself.

    And speaking of not yet having received power, I wonder how the following could already be true if the He hasn't as of yet been before the Father to receive power?

    1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
    22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

  8. #53
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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Now it's starting to become clearer to me how you have been interpreting Dan 7:13-14 this entire time. I def don't agree with this if so.

    Just to make sure I am understanding you somewhat correctly, the following is basically what you're saying, right?

    The harvest in Rev 14:14-20 to you is meaning the Pretrib rapture of the church, and that Dan 7:13-14 is Jesus returning to heaven with the church in the clouds, then He is given power, and glory, and a kingdom, etc. And if so, since the alleged Pretrib rapture hasn't occurred as of yet, logic says as we speak, Jesus has not at this time went before the Father to receive power, glory, and a kingdom for Himself.

    And speaking of not yet having received power, I wonder how the following could already be true if the He hasn't as of yet been before the Father to receive power?

    1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
    22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
    Doesn't have to be pre-trib man this argument clearly could fall into the post-trib camp since the GT would have happened in Rev 13 , and what you don't understand is what I've been saying all along Jesus has ALL authority at the right hand of God, whats different is when he Begins to reign. Here is Hebrews 2 to explain.

    Hebrews 2:5 For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. 6 It has been testified somewhere,

    “What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him?
    7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor,[a]
    8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. 9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

    *Age to come* or *World to come* When God subjects everything to the son so he can rule as i stated in 1 Corinthians 15 which connects to Psalms 82 and psalms 110 Daniel 7 Hebrews makes it clear also. Like i said Repeatly the pivotal moment. Also notice something about the Son of man in Rev 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand.

    The word for this crown here is
    stéphanos the crown of victory.


    Contrasted with the /diádēma, "a royal crown" or Royal crowns found in Rev 19:12.

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    So in this passage Jesus is sitting on those in white linen?

    Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
    Possibly..... note however I did not say that clouds are always those in white linen.

    And here Jesus is returning to Heaven with the Saints in White Linen?

    Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
    I would say here it would be strongly suggested that the "clouds of heaven" are those in white linen.

    How well can you see literal clouds in a night vision?

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Have you seen this?

    Psalm 104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
    Have you seen this?

    13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.

    Clouds = chariots = horses

    Now who is riding the horses?


    Rev
    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

    If the clouds are not literal, did saints in white linen receive Jesus 2000 years ago? He comes in like manner.
    51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

    The angels in white linen....

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I can see angels receiving Him 2000 years ago and escorting him back to heaven. But not saints in white linen though. Now that you mentioned this, even though I initially told Ross that that was a possibility, I now no longer think that and will just stick with my initial hunch, the clouds likely represent angels.
    Do saints (we) become as angels apart from the flesh?

    Angels are spirit beings. What are we in heaven?

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I can see angels receiving Him 2000 years ago and escorting him back to heaven. But not saints in white linen though. Now that you mentioned this, even though I initially told Ross that that was a possibility, I now no longer think that and will just stick with my initial hunch, the clouds likely represent angels.
    That is reasonable. The angels are with Jesus when He comes, each time He comes. Though I do think clouds are actually clouds.

    Deuteronomy 4:11 “Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness.

    1 Kings 8:12 Then Solomon spoke: “The Lord said He would dwell in the dark cloud.

    Psalm 97:2 Clouds and darkness surround Him; Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.

    Ezekiel 32:7 When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light.

    Zephaniah 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

    The angels in white linen....
    White linen is great, but what does that have to do with clouds? Why symbolize something when it is not necessary? Besides, clouds are not always white. They are never white when the Lord is in them actually.

    Deuteronomy 4:11 “Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness.

    1 Kings 8:12 Then Solomon spoke: “The Lord said He would dwell in the dark cloud.

    Psalm 97:2 Clouds and darkness surround Him; Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.

    Ezekiel 32:7 When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light.

    Zephaniah 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness

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    Re: Clouds and the physiical 2nd coming equals the rapture

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    White linen is great, but what does that have to do with clouds?
    Christ comes in darkness....you cant see clouds in the dark ie very well. Those with Christ are arrayed in white which will appear as a cloud.

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