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Thread: Sinners' Prayer References

  1. #601
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    Re: Sinners' Prayer References

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    Today, we are saved by God's grace (He told us the end was coming) through our faith (immersion, and God does the cutting away of our sins), and we arise out of the water to a new spiritual life.
    Today, we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Water baptism is the picture, but not the reality. Spirit baptism is the reality. Romans 2:29 - But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  2. #602
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    Re: Sinners' Prayer References

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    Condemnation rests on sin. Sin is what separates us from God in the first place, not lack of belief. Belief is simply the beginning of the road back to God.
    Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins.

    Now, if you believe but do nothing, do you really believe? NO.
    Of course not. That would be an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not living faith (Ephesians 2:5-10).

    You must put action to your belief for it to be real.
    You have it backwards. You must have real belief in order to produce proper action. We DEMONSTRATE that our faith is real by putting it into action.

    That is what faith is, belief in action.
    Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Saving faith is (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation. Belief in action is works. Faith (root of salvation) produces works (fruit) and not the other way around.

    So then when Jesus says, "He who believes...", does it not makes sense that that belief must be in action?
    Belief saves us the moment that we believe in Christ for salvation BEFORE we produce any further action, because Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works.

    Example is the rulers mentioned in John 12:42. They believed, but were unwilling to confess Jesus because they loved the praise of men more than God. Thus, their belief was worthless. For belief to mean anything, it must be obedient.
    Their unwillingness to confess Christ throws some doubt on the complete genuineness of the faith of these men, but they may have only had a weak moment and failed to confess Christ in this situation in front of the Pharisees. That does not necessarily mean they did not confess Christ to others. The Apostle Peter at one point failed to confess Jesus before men (John 18:17,25-27), but after the Holy Spirit was given, he was a different man who boldly confessed Him (Acts 4:8-13). We know that Peter was saved even though he had a weak moment and the same may be true for these Jewish rulers as well. Does the text specifically say that they were not saved or is that your pre-conceived belief? If the chief rulers truly believed (trusted in Christ for salvation) even though they had a weak moment, they are saved. If their lack of confession in this isolated situation was the result of a lack of faith, then they are not saved.

    *Later on, we see that Peter had another weak moment. Paul even had to rebuke Peter! Read about it in (Galatians 2:11-15). "Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; or before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles.." Some public confession!

    I have already been through this entire line of thought at least twice in this thread. "For the remission of sins" refers back to both parts of the preceding phrase.
    Says you, but not all Greek scholars are in agreement with you and your interpretation is not in harmony with many passages of Scriptures that clearly teach that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6;29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). Once again, faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38l; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

    And the fact that the Spirit fell on the Gentiles before they were baptized was a sign to the Apostles, not an example to us today.
    That is just a desperate attempt to get around the truth. It was certainly an example to us today. Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

    If you look in chapter 11, the Spirit fell on the Gentiles "as [Peter] began to speak". The Gentiles had not even heard the message yet, so they could not have believed, much less obeyed yet.
    I can see that you are deeply indoctrinated into Campbellism theology. In Acts 11, Peter is explaining his actions that took place in chapter 10. He already said enough. If you would finish reading through verse 17, you would see that they received the Holy Spirit WHEN they BELIEVED ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, NOT BEFORE THEY HEARD NOTHING AT ALL! *Compare this with Acts 16:31, "BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND YOU WILL BE SAVED." AMEN! Acts 10:44 says, "THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME ON ALL WHO HEARD THE MESSAGE, not on all who "heard nothing." They obviously heard enough, regardless of whether or not Peter was "still" speaking. Obviously he did. "Began to speak" (Acts 11:15) and "still speaking" (Acts 10:44) are not in contradiction. Scripture cannot contradict other scripture my friend. Acts 10:44 says, while he was "still speaking," which means, he already started talking and said, "WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS." So obviously, began to speak can't mean, said nothing at all yet, because that would contradict, "still speaking." There is a difference between "as" I began to speak and "before" I began to speak.

    While this has no bearing on the definition of "eis" in Acts 2:38, I would agree with you that here the word translated "for" would mean "on the basis of" your repentance.
    At least you acknowledge "for" would mean "on the basis of." Now in regards to Acts 2:38, Greek scholar AT Robertson said - One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received. Amen!

    Like you said, the thief realized who Jesus was, showed faith in Him by defending Him, and confessing his belief that He is the Christ, and Jesus blessed him with the promise of Paradise while still under the OT. After Jesus died, He no longer made any exceptions to the rule He instituted that, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved."
    Exception to the rule? John preached a baptism of repentance "for" the forgiveness of sins while still under the OT, which you are forced to admit that "for" is "in regards to/on the basis of" the remission of sins received upon repentance, just as in Matthew 3:11. Why would Acts 2:38 be any different? Similar language. You need to quit isolating the first half of Mark 16:16 and building doctrine on it. That is not proper biblical hermeneutics. Since Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned," then baptism signifies salvation and these are not two conditions to being saved here. Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death is the substance and baptism is the shadow. Without the substance there would be no shadow. The death, burial and resurrection of Christ is figured or cast (as a shadow) in the ordinance of water baptism.

    I do not currently attend the Church of Christ, because there is not one close enough to my home to get to easily. However, I do believe that, for the most part, they hold the closest to Biblical teaching on most subjects.
    All of your arguments so far fall right in line with what I've heard others who attend the church of Christ teach.

    There are some places where the majority of the Churches of Christ and I disagree (like instrumental music, dancing, and things like that), but for the most part, especially on "salvation issues", they hold closest to the Bible of any other type of congregation with whom I have worshiped.
    I also disagree with forbidding instrumental music during worship. The main problem with the church of Christ (when it comes to salvation) is they try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith and end up perverting the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  3. #603
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    Re: Sinners' Prayer References

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    If he wasn't under the NT, then he was under the OT, and if he was under the OT, then being a thief he failed to uphold the Law, and seeing as he was hanging on a cross, was unable to perform any of the ritual sin cleansing ceremonies, so he would have been damned since his faith was intellectual only, and not lived out.
    Then everyone in the OT was damned. All failed to uphold the law, God departed in Ezekiel/wasn't in the temple for acceptable sacrifice for sins, no one was saved because they did ritual sin cleansing ceremonies and on and on and on....

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    Re: Sinners' Prayer References

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Then everyone in the OT was damned. All failed to uphold the law, God departed in Ezekiel/wasn't in the temple for acceptable sacrifice for sins, no one was saved because they did ritual sin cleansing ceremonies and on and on and on....
    That sure is a nasty implication of Doug's view.

  5. #605
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    Re: Sinners' Prayer References

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    That sure is a nasty implication of Doug's view.
    I haven't really followed along so I'm not sure what that view is (obedience in water baptism saves?), but I'm ok with a nasty implication. The truth is known to have that effect.

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    Re: Sinners' Prayer References

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I haven't really followed along so I'm not sure what that view is (obedience in water baptism saves?), but I'm ok with a nasty implication. The truth is known to have that effect.
    That's what he's saying, yeah. Faith isn't just belief, but belief + act, so (in his view) if you were to profess faith in Jesus, but die on your way to being baptized, you would be condemned.

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    Re: Sinners' Prayer References

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    That's what he's saying, yeah. Faith isn't just belief, but belief + act, so (in his view) if you were to profess faith in Jesus, but die on your way to being baptized, you would be condemned.
    That's how I understand Doug's points... the work is what saves the person, not the faith, not the belief, not the surrendering to God in repentance. All that is not enough. Doug is saying that salvation is completed by man's work in the submerging of a person into water and this act of man, completes salvation.
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



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    Re: Sinners' Prayer References

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    That's how I understand Doug's points... the work is what saves the person, not the faith, not the belief, not the surrendering to God in repentance. All that is not enough. Doug is saying that salvation is completed by man's work in the submerging of a person into water and this act of man, completes salvation.
    Unless you lived 'under the OT', which according to him required only intellectual faith... You know, ignoring Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy...

  9. #609
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    Re: Sinners' Prayer References

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    That's what he's saying, yeah. Faith isn't just belief, but belief + act, so (in his view) if you were to profess faith in Jesus, but die on your way to being baptized, you would be condemned.
    So intent isn't considered? If you are on your way to be baptized haven't you already been obedient to the faith? I think of the lepers that Jesus told to go show themselves to the priest in Luke 17 and were healed as they went.

    Luk 17:12* And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:*
    Luk 17:13* And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.*
    Luk 17:14* And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.*
    Luk 17:15* And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,*
    Luk 17:16* And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.*
    Luk 17:17* And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?*
    Luk 17:18* There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.*
    Luk 17:19* And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.*

  10. #610
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    Re: Sinners' Prayer References

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    So intent isn't considered? If you are on your way to be baptized haven't you already been obedient to the faith? I think of the lepers that Jesus told to go show themselves to the priest in Luke 17 and were healed as they went.

    Luk 17:12* And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:*
    Luk 17:13* And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.*
    Luk 17:14* And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.*
    Luk 17:15* And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,*
    Luk 17:16* And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.*
    Luk 17:17* And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?*
    Luk 17:18* There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.*
    Luk 17:19* And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.*
    He's saying intent matters, but only after the baptism has occurred. For instance, if you get baptized because you believe you are already saved, well then, that intent means that the baptism doesn't work and you are lost. If you get baptized, trusting that baptism completes the saving process (i.e. baptism saves you), then you got saved and need to continue walking it out... because intent matters in order to get the right effect from the action. The intent to get baptized, doesn't matter at all if one isn't baptized. But it matters in whether the baptism is effective or not.

    I may not have explained it right but he has suggested something along this line in the thread.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Sinners' Prayer References

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    He's saying intent matters, but only after the baptism has occurred. For instance, if you get baptized because believe you are already saved, well then, that intent means that the baptism doesn't work and you are lost. If you get baptized, trusting that baptism saves you, then you got saved and need to continue walking it out... because intent matters in order to get the right effect from the action. The intent to get baptized, doesn't matter at all if one isn't baptized. But it matters in whether the baptism is effective or not.

    I may not have explained it right but he has suggested something along this line in the thread.
    I think this is a great assessment of all that he's been saying concerning intent in believing that the baptism is what saves you, not Christ's sacrifice.
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  12. #612
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    Re: Sinners' Prayer References

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    He's saying intent matters, but only after the baptism has occurred. For instance, if you get baptized because you believe you are already saved, well then, that intent means that the baptism doesn't work and you are lost. If you get baptized, trusting that baptism completes the saving process (i.e. baptism saves you), then you got saved and need to continue walking it out... because intent matters in order to get the right effect from the action. The intent to get baptized, doesn't matter at all if one isn't baptized. But it matters in whether the baptism is effective or not.

    I may not have explained it right but he has suggested something along this line in the thread.
    I think you are accurately explaining his position ... having said that I do I think "understand" where he gets his "understanding" from ...
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

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    Re: Sinners' Prayer References

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    He's saying intent matters, but only after the baptism has occurred. For instance, if you get baptized because you believe you are already saved, well then, that intent means that the baptism doesn't work and you are lost. If you get baptized, trusting that baptism completes the saving process (i.e. baptism saves you), then you got saved and need to continue walking it out... because intent matters in order to get the right effect from the action. The intent to get baptized, doesn't matter at all if one isn't baptized. But it matters in whether the baptism is effective or not.

    I may not have explained it right but he has suggested something along this line in the thread.
    Thanks for explaining. Wow, OK then, that's messed up!

  14. #614

    Re: Sinners' Prayer References

    Wow! This thread has received a lot of attention since its initial posting. As iron sharpens iron......:_)

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    Re: Sinners' Prayer References

    Quote Originally Posted by JollyRoger1970 View Post
    Hi! I have silly question. Where in the New Testament is the Sinners' Prayer located? I was asked for scripture references and have come up short.

    Thanks in advance!!
    As has been noted, you will not find it in the Bible. It is a somewhat modern tradition. Now, that said, it is good for a seeker to pray to God. After all, he is expressing his faith in Christ.

    We are not saved by raising your hand, standing up, or praying a specific prayer. We are saved by faith, coming to believe in Jesus Christ.

    So what that does for me is remind me how important it is to make the gospel clear. In the parable of the sower, in either Luke's or Matthew's version, the seed sown on the path refers the those who hear the Word but do not understand it. As a result Satan comes, as a bird in the illustration, and takes it away ao that they will not believe and hence be saved.

    Ask the person to tell you back what they need to do IOT gain eternal life. If they are not clear, talk about the gospel again. Make sure they understand that Jesus claims to be God (God's Son), and that they can do nothing to gain eternal life. It is a gift, received by faith alone.

    BD
    3 John 4 - "No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my [spiritual] children walk in the truth.

    BadDog!

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