View Poll Results: New heaven and earth, or renewed?

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  • Brand new heaven and earth that do not exist today.

    10 52.63%
  • Renewal of the current heaven and earth.

    8 42.11%
  • Other

    1 5.26%
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Thread: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

  1. #1
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    New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Is the new heaven and new earth really all new, or just renewed?

    If you are in the "renewed" camp, what scripture do you use to make that interpretation?

    Imho, new means new. The following scriptures make this understanding very clear to me.

    Isaiah 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard,
    And shall totter like a hut;
    Its transgression shall be heavy upon it,
    And it will fall, and not rise again.

    Isaiah 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
    And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

    Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away....5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.”

    Matthew 24:
    35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.


    The first heaven and first earth pass away prior to the new ones being created. This does not apply to the second or third heaven, only the first heaven. The earth falls and does not rise again, nor does it even come to mind. (Btw, that is why the wheat is gathered into the barn at the end of the age. The first earth is destroyed, then the new one is created.)

    There are many more scripture, but these are a few that leave no room for a "renewed" earth. It seems to me that those who do not actually believe God created this universe in six literal days also seem to in the renewed camp. What say you?


  2. #2

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    I think it is purely a renewal, although I hasten to say I don't really know. There are Scripture passages that speak of the earth lasting forever. If so, it will not be destroyed--when the Scriptures speak of the destruction, or the passing away, of the heavens and the earth, they are speaking of the end of a particular temporal order.

    Therefore, I see the new heavens and new earth actually being a fixing of heavens and earth into an eternal state, from a formerly transitory, temporal state. However, as I said, I base this finding on the fact the Scriptures speak of the earth as being "forever." And quite frankly, God created the heavens and the earth not to pass away, but to be the eternal home for mankind. Therefore, its passing is really an evolution into an altered state--not a true demolition.

  3. #3
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Good verses T.P. Ill go with brand new.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  4. #4
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    An understanding of the Greek useage of the English word 'new' will clarify this question; so that all can be 100% unanimous in their understanding.
    The English is vague; and can lead to confusion, but the Greek is precise, accurate, and without vaguity.

    There are two words in Greek, with different meanings, that get conveyed into English as the same word 'new'.
    They are 'neo-3601' and 'kainos-2537'.



    The greek word 'Neo-3601' means new, as in a new creation; something that is new in time. I cleared a field, and built a new house.
    The greek word 'Kainos-2537' means new, as in a renewed and refurbished; something that is made new again from a prior state of existense. I bought an old delapidated house and restored it, making it a brand spanking new house.


    Scriptural support; showing this.

    New, 'Neo-3601' , as in created, original in time; first in precidence.

    Matthew 9:17 "Neither do men put new 'Neo-3601' wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new 'Neo-3601' wine into new 'Neo-3601' bottles, and both are preserved."

    I Corinthians 5:7 "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new 'Neo-3601'lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us"


    In each case, a brand new, initial, first in time and precidence and state; with no prior state preceeding it.




    New, 'Kainos-2537', as in a renewal and refurbishing of something already existing.

    II Peter 3:12 "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new 'Kainos-2537' heavens and a new 'Kainos-2537' earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

    Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new 'Kainos-2537' heaven and a new 'Kainos-2537' earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

    Matthew 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new 'Kainos-2537' testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

    Isaiah 65:17 and LXX Greek Septuagint "For, behold, I create new 'Kainos-2537' heavens and a new 'Kainos-2537' earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."
    Isa 65:17 εσται G1510[V-FMI-3S] γαρ G1063[PRT] ο G3588[T-NSM] ουρανος G3772[N-NSM] καινος G2537[A-NSM] και G2532[CONJ] η G3588[T-NSF] γη G1065[N-NSF]καινος G2537[A-NSM] και G2532[CONJ] ου G3364[ADV] μη G3165[ADV] μνησθωσιν G3403[V-APS-3P] των G3588[T-GPM] προτερων G4387[A-GPM] ουδ G3761[CONJ] ου G3364[ADV] μη G3165[ADV] επελθη G[V-AAS-3S] αυτων G846[D-GPM] επι G1909[PREP] την G3588[T-ASF] καρδιαν G2588[N-ASF]


    In each case, a renewed, refurbished, change of state; from a prior inferior state; to a new, renewed, refurbished state.



    There are even some cases where the two words can be used for the same situation; like this verse; where salvation both renews a man that previously existed, but also makes him a brand new man that never existed.

    Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new 'Neo-3601' man, which is renewed 'Anakainoō-341' prior tense of 'Kainos-2537' in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"

  5. #5
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Great post DP. My only reservation having not studied these Greek word more is the part "the elements will melt with fervent heat", which to me indicates every atom of matter in the universe will be annihilated, releasing their full energy potential when the Lord releases his hold all on creation.

  6. #6

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    As much as I appreciate explanation of the Greek words that reflect "new" in different ways (David Taylor), I'm not sure that something of this order is as precise in my mind as it is in others? We know there will be a change in time. And we know the change will be from one order into an entirely new order.

    However, this is like the argument as to whether the Millennium will begin with the NHNE or not. If the beginning of the Millennium brings about a New Earth immediately, how will that New Earth look appreciably different than the Old Earth? But if the New Earth actually follows the Millennial Era, what will this New Earth look like as opposed to the Current Earth?

    I've come to believe that we have a completely different view of the earth today, following Copernicus and Galileo, than the Bible authors had when they wrote the Bible. We view the Earth as a planet in the solar system and in the universe, whereas the biblical authors viewed the Earth as the total land mass of dirt beneath our feet!

    Now, I know some will argue this, saying that the Bible depicts the earth as a "circle." Regardless, the earth is viewed as *below heaven,* or below our view of the sky. The heaven is the sky above, and the earth is the dirt beneath our feet. In this respect, do you really think the biblical authors meant to convey that the dirt beneath our feet will dissolve, elementally? I don't think so!

    Rather, in order to make the earth "new" there would have to be a destruction of what grows or lives on the earth--not a destruction of dirt itself. Dissolving the elements was understood as the product of fire changing things into ashes. Just my opinion.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoomart View Post
    Great post DP. My only reservation having not studied these Greek word more is the part "the elements will melt with fervent heat", which to me indicates every atom of matter in the universe will be annihilated, releasing their full energy potential when the Lord releases his hold all on creation.
    The discovery of micro physics and sub atomic particles were not known until centuries after the writings of the apostles. The belief that Peter had in mind the periodic table combusting at the 2nd coming is highly unlikley. The way that the ancient biblical writers understood the word "elements" was the "the rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of the world". The patterns, infrastructure, principals and systems of this present earth will be judged by the Lord and renewed in righteousness at His 2nd advent.

    Below is the only other ways the word "elements" (stoicheion) is used in the Bible. As you can see, it never refers to micro physics.




    Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements (stoicheion)of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[fn] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of[fn] God through Christ. 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, (stoicheion) to which you desire again to be in bondage?

    Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles (stoicheion) of the world, and not according to Christ.

    Col 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles (stoicheion) of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations

    Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles (stoicheion) of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

  8. #8
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    I believe also, Peter is consistent, when he describes the two world-wide destructions of the world; one by water; one by fire.
    In each case, the world is destroyed; but the successor is a new or better stated renewed continuation and upgrade of the prior.
    Not a complete restart from exhilo nothing.

    II Peter
    3:5 the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
    3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire


    The New Earth will be remade; unimaginably compared to what we have now; but like the same way Jesus resurrected body was remade different, power, glory, immortal; but was a transformation of his prior body; not a brand new body...so is the creation.

    I Cor 15 explains this very well.

    It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    It is planted a seed, and raised and transformed a stalk of wheat.

    15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
    15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat

    15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


    Paul compares the creation renewal itself likewise, to the renewal of our bodies at the return of Christ.
    Not a new earth; but a renewed earth; perhaps similar to a return to the garden of eden; where sin and the curse are finally removed.

    Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

  9. #9

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    The discovery of micro physics and sub atomic particles were not known until centuries after the writings of the apostles. The belief that Peter had in mind the periodic table combusting at the 2nd coming is highly unlikley. The way that the ancient biblical writers understood the word "elements" was the "the rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of the world". The patterns, infrastructure, principals and systems of this present earth will be judged by the Lord and renewed in righteousness at His 2nd advent.

    Below is the only other ways the word "elements" (stoicheion) is used in the Bible. As you can see, it never refers to micro physics.




    Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements (stoicheion)of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[fn] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of[fn] God through Christ. 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, (stoicheion) to which you desire again to be in bondage?

    Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles (stoicheion) of the world, and not according to Christ.

    Col 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles (stoicheion) of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations

    Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles (stoicheion) of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
    My thoughts as well. Thank you!

    It makes me wonder How Paul conceived of "the elements"--as a natural order that is in bondage on its own, and only freed from the sin nature by access to the spirituality of Christ?

    It sounds like it to me. In this case Paul's view of the "elements" had to do with the natural order, which reflects human bondage to sin in the present age.

    But in future ages the saints will not only have access to Christ's spirituality, as they do now, but they will also obtain sinless bodies in the resurrection. That would require the dissolution of our bodies in favor of entirely new bodies, and yet made up of the same ground that Adam was made from.

    In any case, the "elements" appear to have to do with the natural order on earth, with the operation of all the laws of nature. And yet part of that "natural order" has come to be out of sync with God's original intention for man. Mankind has turned to disobedience, and has been relegated to a "corrupt" natural order. We now do both good and evil. We were originally created to do good, and we still do that. But now that we have compromised with sin, we do evil also. This has become part of our nature. And it does not qualify for eternal life.

    However, we now have access to Christ's spirituality, making us qualified to participate with him in his right to eternal life. The natural order has thus been altered for Christians in the present age, because unlike the majority of pagans and non-Christians on earth, who are unable to reflect in their life the living Christ, we are indeed able to do so. But the natural order will actually change completely for us in future ages, when we obtain our new immortal bodies.

  10. #10
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    I believe also, Peter is consistent, when he describes the two world-wide destructions of the world; one by water; one by fire.
    In each case, the world is destroyed; but the successor is a new or better stated renewed continuation and upgrade of the prior.
    Not a complete restart from exhilo nothing.

    II Peter
    3:5 the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
    3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire


    The New Earth will be remade; unimaginably compared to what we have now; but like the same way Jesus resurrected body was remade different, power, glory, immortal; but was a transformation of his prior body; not a brand new body...so is the creation.

    I Cor 15 explains this very well.

    It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    It is planted a seed, and raised and transformed a stalk of wheat.

    15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
    15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat

    15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


    Paul compares the creation renewal itself likewise, to the renewal of our bodies at the return of Christ.
    Not a new earth; but a renewed earth; perhaps similar to a return to the garden of eden; where sin and the curse are finally removed.

    Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
    Maybe it's just me, but I tend to think destroying the earth by literal fire, as opposed to a literal flood, the former seems to be a far worse fate, not that the latter isn't a terrible fate as well. But in comparison though, the former seems far worse to me. With that in mind, assuming the earth is destroyed via literal fire this time around, it makes one wonder why God was being somewhat untruthful when He said the following in Genesis 9?

    Genesis 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

    No doubt, destroying the earth with literal fire would not be the same as destroying the earth with a flood. But if He no longer desired to ever again destroy the earth with a flood, why would He then decide to do something far worse in this future, this time destroy it with literal fire instead? It doesn't add up to me that God would be unwilling to ever destroy the earth with a flood again, but perfectly willing to destroy it with literal fire instead. Something wrong with that picture IMO. And besides, like I have pointed out numerous times in the past, Rev 19 is also a 2nd coming chapter, yet nowhere in that chapter is the entire planet ever depicted as being literally on fire. So how could it mean literally ablaze in 2 Peter 3 but not Rev 19 as well?

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Maybe it's just me, but I tend to think destroying the earth by literal fire, as opposed to a literal flood, the former seems to be a far worse fate, not that the latter isn't a terrible fate as well. But in comparison though, the former seems far worse to me. With that in mind, assuming the earth is destroyed via literal fire this time around, it makes one wonder why God was being somewhat untruthful when He said the following in Genesis 9?

    Genesis 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

    No doubt, destroying the earth with literal fire would not be the same as destroying the earth with a flood. But if He no longer desired to ever again destroy the earth with a flood, why would He then decide to do something far worse in this future, this time destroy it with literal fire instead? It doesn't add up to me that God would be unwilling to ever destroy the earth with a flood again, but perfectly willing to destroy it with literal fire instead. Something wrong with that picture IMO. And besides, like I have pointed out numerous times in the past, Rev 19 is also a 2nd coming chapter, yet nowhere in that chapter is the entire planet ever depicted as being literally on fire. So how could it mean literally ablaze in 2 Peter 3 but not Rev 19 as well?
    I think the crux difference; is the difference between Amill/Postmill and Premill.

    Amill/Postmill sees the second coming as the removal of the curse and sin from the earth. Everything will be remade in perfect righteousness at Christ's appearing.
    Every human on the Earth after that, will be immortal, glorified, sinless, incorruptible; living in the restored creation God intended.
    So God isn't destroying the Earth like the partially restore it and continue a 3rd time a repopulation of mortals like he did with Noah and sons. God is introducing the perfect eternal Earth.

    Premill, however, this does created a conundrum because Premill (all flavors) have sin and death and the curse continuing after Christ's appearing; throughout the next 1000 years; where mortals do exist, and in that view, would be breeding, and replenishing the earth. In this view, it would be another Noah, Shem, Ham, etc... reboot and restart of mortal lineages again; which would seem to impinge the Genesis 9:11 scripture you cite above...or at least the spirit of that passage.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    I think the crux difference; is the difference between Amill/Postmill and Premill.

    Amill/Postmill sees the second coming as the removal of the curse and sin from the earth. Everything will be remade in perfect righteousness at Christ's appearing.
    Every human on the Earth after that, will be immortal, glorified, sinless, incorruptible; living in the restored creation God intended.
    So God isn't destroying the Earth like the partially restore it and continue a 3rd time a repopulation of mortals like he did with Noah and sons. God is introducing the perfect eternal Earth.

    Premill, however, this does created a conundrum because Premill (all flavors) have sin and death and the curse continuing after Christ's appearing; throughout the next 1000 years; where mortals do exist, and in that view, would be breeding, and replenishing the earth. In this view, it would be another Noah, Shem, Ham, etc... reboot and restart of mortal lineages again; which would seem to impinge the Genesis 9:11 scripture you cite above...or at least the spirit of that passage.
    For me this isnt an issue, as you quoted earlier from Col 3:10 which clearly shows us right now, with our old flesh, yet at the same time we are also completely new, and we are renewed.
    I see the NHNE going through the same process.
    At the moment it is under the curse and also the effects of the curse.
    When Jesus returns He will make something completely new, yet will also renew the earth.
    We see this same picture with the river of life flowing in Ezekiel 47, which Rev 22 tells us will be flowing out of the NJ. There would be no reason for healing etc IF everything had already been healed.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    For me this isnt an issue, as you quoted earlier from Col 3:10 which clearly shows us right now, with our old flesh, yet at the same time we are also completely new, and we are renewed.
    I see the NHNE going through the same process.
    At the moment it is under the curse and also the effects of the curse.
    When Jesus returns He will make something completely new, yet will also renew the earth.
    We see this same picture with the river of life flowing in Ezekiel 47, which Rev 22 tells us will be flowing out of the NJ. There would be no reason for healing etc IF everything had already been healed.
    Did you miss this?

    Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.


    There is nothing to heal; all will have been healed; when sin, death, pain, and dying have all ended at the introduction of the NHNE.

    Use of the 'heal' metaphor is no different than the living water metaphor, or the tree of life metaphor.

    We won't be required to drink special water, or eat special apples to have eternal life.

    They are metaphors of eternal life.

    Once in the NHNE, all is perfect! Eternal Life for all is realized and completed. Our work is finished.....just like Jesus says in verse 21:5, "IT IS DONE!"

    Notice a few verses earlier regarding the healing of the nations, we see who those nations in the NHNE are....21:24 "The nations of them which are saved"

    Only the redeemed of all ages, in their glorified eternal state will be in the NHNE.
    Where are the wicked?

    They are without.....(aka not in the NHNE, they are in the Lake of Fire; prepared for the devil and his angels).

    If you have a NHNE after the great throne judgment that still contains sin and death; you are out of pages in your bible.....in other words; there is nowhere left in scriptures to ever describe a perfect, sinless, eternalstate, if you allow sin and death to be apart of your NHNE.

    (Unless there is a secret missing chapter 23 that you've read that I haven't seen yet).

  14. #14

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Maybe it's just me, but I tend to think destroying the earth by literal fire, as opposed to a literal flood, the former seems to be a far worse fate, not that the latter isn't a terrible fate as well. But in comparison though, the former seems far worse to me. With that in mind, assuming the earth is destroyed via literal fire this time around, it makes one wonder why God was being somewhat untruthful when He said the following in Genesis 9?

    Genesis 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

    No doubt, destroying the earth with literal fire would not be the same as destroying the earth with a flood. But if He no longer desired to ever again destroy the earth with a flood, why would He then decide to do something far worse in this future, this time destroy it with literal fire instead? It doesn't add up to me that God would be unwilling to ever destroy the earth with a flood again, but perfectly willing to destroy it with literal fire instead. Something wrong with that picture IMO. And besides, like I have pointed out numerous times in the past, Rev 19 is also a 2nd coming chapter, yet nowhere in that chapter is the entire planet ever depicted as being literally on fire. So how could it mean literally ablaze in 2 Peter 3 but not Rev 19 as well?
    Solid arguments. Thanks.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Did you miss this?

    Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.


    There is nothing to heal; all will have been healed; when sin, death, pain, and dying have all ended at the introduction of the NHNE.
    No, I didn't miss that at all.
    However what you seem to miss is that refers specifically and only to the NJ.

    It is always good to note where the quote is from:
    Isa 65:17* “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.*
    Isa 65:18* But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness.*
    Isa 65:19* I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.*
    Isa 65:20* No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.*

    Use of the 'heal' metaphor is no different than the living water metaphor, or the tree of life metaphor.
    We won't be required to drink special water, or eat special apples to have eternal life.
    They are metaphors of eternal life.
    Once in the NHNE, all is perfect! Eternal Life for all is realized and completed. Our work is finished.....just like Jesus says in verse 21:5, "IT IS DONE!"
    Notice a few verses earlier regarding the healing of the nations, we see who those nations in the NHNE are....21:24 "The nations of them which are saved"
    Only the redeemed of all ages, in their glorified eternal state will be in the NHNE.
    Incorrect. Heal means heal.
    The living water is not simply a metaphor, just as the tree of life is not a metaphor.

    It is false to claim ONLY the redeemed of all ages will be in the NHNE. It would be correct to claim this in regards to the NJ. Don't confuse the two. The NJ is in the NHNE, but they are NOT synonymous.

    Where are the wicked?
    They are without.....(aka not in the NHNE, they are in the Lake of Fire; prepared for the devil and his angels).
    If you have a NHNE after the great throne judgment that still contains sin and death; you are out of pages in your bible.....in other words; there is nowhere left in scriptures to ever describe a perfect, sinless, eternalstate, if you allow sin and death to be apart of your NHNE.
    (Unless there is a secret missing chapter 23 that you've read that I haven't seen yet).
    The NHNE starts BEFORE the GWToJ.
    Where indeed are the wicked, they are outside the city. Which city? NJ!

    Rev 21:24* By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,*
    Rev 21:25* and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.*
    Rev 21:26* They will bring into it the glory and the honour of the nations.*
    Rev 21:27* But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    Notice that initially there will be nations. It is NOT just the Kingdom of God on earth at this time.
    This is confirmed by all other passages in the OT which speak about the start of the Kingdom:
    Dan 7:11* “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.*
    Dan 7:12* As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.*

    If you agree that the beast being killed here is the beast killed in Rev 19, then we discover that the other beasts continue, but without dominion (that is they continue to exist, but without exercising rulership).
    They last AFTER the beast is gone for a season and time. This speaks of the millennium and the short season of the rebellion at the end of it.

    Notice also that there are people OUTSIDE the city who will come into the city and go out again.
    These are the same nations who will be healed by the leaves of the tree of life:
    Rev 22:2* through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


    We who are glorified will NOT need any healing, but the nations will. Those nations are NOT saved.

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