View Poll Results: New heaven and earth, or renewed?

Voters
19. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brand new heaven and earth that do not exist today.

    10 52.63%
  • Renewal of the current heaven and earth.

    8 42.11%
  • Other

    1 5.26%
Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 98

Thread: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,801

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Maybe it's just me, but I tend to think destroying the earth by literal fire, as opposed to a literal flood, the former seems to be a far worse fate, not that the latter isn't a terrible fate as well. But in comparison though, the former seems far worse to me. With that in mind, assuming the earth is destroyed via literal fire this time around, it makes one wonder why God was being somewhat untruthful when He said the following in Genesis 9?

    Genesis 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

    No doubt, destroying the earth with literal fire would not be the same as destroying the earth with a flood. But if He no longer desired to ever again destroy the earth with a flood, why would He then decide to do something far worse in this future, this time destroy it with literal fire instead? It doesn't add up to me that God would be unwilling to ever destroy the earth with a flood again, but perfectly willing to destroy it with literal fire instead. Something wrong with that picture IMO. And besides, like I have pointed out numerous times in the past, Rev 19 is also a 2nd coming chapter, yet nowhere in that chapter is the entire planet ever depicted as being literally on fire. So how could it mean literally ablaze in 2 Peter 3 but not Rev 19 as well?
    If the flood was a literal event, why wouldn't the destruction by fire be just as literal?

    Perhaps you may be mistaken to believe the NHNE comes at the beginning of the Millennium instead of the end of it, as it is portrayed in Revelation to come after the Millennium. It makes perfect sense to destroy this earth at the end of the age, the end of the Millennium. That is why the wheat is gathered into the barn at the end of the age, to burn up this former kingdom of satan. All things will be created new.

    John the Baptist understood. Matt 3:12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

  2. #17

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Isaiah 65:17
    "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

    It seems that God is going to create a brand new earth and also new heavens (which will include the sky and space).

    I'm not 100% sure, though, but for now I'll go with new instead of renewed.
    Jeremiah 29:11
    "For I know the plans that I have for you,’ declares the Lord, ‘plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." (NASB)

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,801

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by paidforinfull View Post
    Isaiah 65:17
    "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

    It seems that God is going to create a brand new earth and also new heavens (which will include the sky and space).

    I'm not 100% sure, though, but for now I'll go with new instead of renewed.
    Thanks for your input!

    In the book of Job there is an indication that the angels of heaven watched and rejoiced over this creation. Once we are there, being like angels, I would think we will get to watch the new creation. How awesome would that be!?

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,801

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    An understanding of the Greek useage of the English word 'new' will clarify this question; so that all can be 100% unanimous in their understanding.
    The English is vague; and can lead to confusion, but the Greek is precise, accurate, and without vaguity.

    There are two words in Greek, with different meanings, that get conveyed into English as the same word 'new'.
    They are 'neo-3601' and 'kainos-2537'.



    The greek word 'Neo-3601' means new, as in a new creation; something that is new in time. I cleared a field, and built a new house.
    The greek word 'Kainos-2537' means new, as in a renewed and refurbished; something that is made new again from a prior state of existense. I bought an old delapidated house and restored it, making it a brand spanking new house.


    Scriptural support; showing this.

    New, 'Neo-3601' , as in created, original in time; first in precidence.

    Matthew 9:17 "Neither do men put new 'Neo-3601' wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new 'Neo-3601' wine into new 'Neo-3601' bottles, and both are preserved."

    I Corinthians 5:7 "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new 'Neo-3601'lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us"


    In each case, a brand new, initial, first in time and precidence and state; with no prior state preceeding it.




    New, 'Kainos-2537', as in a renewal and refurbishing of something already existing.

    II Peter 3:12 "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new 'Kainos-2537' heavens and a new 'Kainos-2537' earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

    Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new 'Kainos-2537' heaven and a new 'Kainos-2537' earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

    Matthew 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new 'Kainos-2537' testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

    Isaiah 65:17 and LXX Greek Septuagint "For, behold, I create new 'Kainos-2537' heavens and a new 'Kainos-2537' earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."
    Isa 65:17 εσται G1510[V-FMI-3S] γαρ G1063[PRT] ο G3588[T-NSM] ουρανος G3772[N-NSM] καινος G2537[A-NSM] και G2532[CONJ] η G3588[T-NSF] γη G1065[N-NSF]καινος G2537[A-NSM] και G2532[CONJ] ου G3364[ADV] μη G3165[ADV] μνησθωσιν G3403[V-APS-3P] των G3588[T-GPM] προτερων G4387[A-GPM] ουδ G3761[CONJ] ου G3364[ADV] μη G3165[ADV] επελθη G[V-AAS-3S] αυτων G846[D-GPM] επι G1909[PREP] την G3588[T-ASF] καρδιαν G2588[N-ASF]


    In each case, a renewed, refurbished, change of state; from a prior inferior state; to a new, renewed, refurbished state.



    There are even some cases where the two words can be used for the same situation; like this verse; where salvation both renews a man that previously existed, but also makes him a brand new man that never existed.

    Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new 'Neo-3601' man, which is renewed 'Anakainoō-341' prior tense of 'Kainos-2537' in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"
    I appreciate the Greek lesson, but I think you ruined your argument with it. Kainos has nothing to do with renewal or refurbished. Quite the opposite actually. How can you possibly make that claim here? Both words are interchanged by the different gospel writers on the very example you gave. The new wineskins. New means new in both cases.

  5. #20

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    If the flood was a literal event, why wouldn't the destruction by fire be just as literal?

    Perhaps you may be mistaken to believe the NHNE comes at the beginning of the Millennium instead of the end of it, as it is portrayed in Revelation to come after the Millennium.
    This is where I get hung up, Tony. I feel like you do, that the NHNE *follows* the Millennium, but I remain unsure. The reasons to believe otherwise are compelling. However, I'm not sure that the Scriptures actually indicate the NHNE follows the Millennium--it is just described *after* mention of the Millennium.

    Of course, if you take the position that the Revelation narrative is completely linear in chronology, then you might come to the conclusion that the NHNE follows the Millennium. But I don't accept that premise--highly unlikely, and very illogical to me. Certainly there is a limited amount of chronology in the narrative, but inasmuch as there are numerous disconnected visions there is no need to make assumptions of succeeding events in this respect. I prefer to let the Scriptures speak for themselves, and I don't think they actually say this?

    "Then I saw" (Rev 21.1) may appear to sound like a succeeding event, following the Millennium, but I don't think the assumption is warranted without explicit statement to that effect. It is equally logical to view it as saying "then I saw another vision," which may be unrelated to any particular chronology. Many of the visions of the Revelation are non-chronological in this way. Then I saw, then I saw, then I saw--all without a particular historical sequence. In fact I don't think it's possible that all of these visions succeed one another in chrononlogical sequence. And if the timing of the NHNE is not clearly determined by explicit statement, then we really have to determine when the NHNE will happen by other factors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P
    It makes perfect sense to destroy this earth at the end of the age, the end of the Millennium. That is why the wheat is gathered into the barn at the end of the age, to burn up this former kingdom of satan. All things will be created new.

    John the Baptist understood. Matt 3:12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
    This is another regular issue of mine. We can mix up the fires of the Battle of Armageddon with the terminal point of the Old Earth. How do we know that the Old Earth will burn up at all? If at the end of the Millennium the Old Earth comes to an end why does it even need to burn? Burning has to do with judgment, and the battle at the end of the Millennium does not sound like anything resembling universal destruction.

    I personally think many of the passages having to do with the destruction of the earth really refer to the Battle of Armageddon, which I believe will be a nuclear war. It will not end the world, but it will alter seriously the order of politics on earth, with Satan being bound, and with many of the wicked who follow Antichrist being destroyed in the battle itself. A world war with the use of nukes will surely destroy and remove many of the wicked in this age. The saints will be raised from the dead. Those alive and remaining will be glorified. The repentant will have a new go at it.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,801

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is where I get hung up, Tony. I feel like you do, that the NHNE *follows* the Millennium, but I remain unsure. The reason to believe otherwise are compelling. However, I'm not sure that the Scriptures actually indicate the NHNE follows the Millennium--it is just described *after* mention of the Millennium.
    If new means new, as in brand new, then the NHNE has to follow the Millennium. That is why I think it is important to believe that new means new. From what you know, would you describe the following as the coming of Jesus, or the end of the 1000 years?

    Isaiah 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, And shall totter like a hut;
    Its transgression shall be heavy upon it, And it will fall, and not rise again.

    Isaiah 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
    And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

    Of course, if you take the position that the Revelation narrative is completely linear in chronology, then you might come to the conclusion that the NHNE follows the Millennium. But I don't accept that premise--highly unlikely, and very illogical to me. Certainly there is a limited amount of chronology in the narrative, but inasmuch as there are numerous disconnected visions there is no need to make assumptions of succeeding events in this respect. I prefer to let the Scriptures speak for themselves, and I don't think they actually say this?

    "Then I saw" (Rev 21.1) may appear to sound like a succeeding event, following the Millennium, but I don't think the assumption is warranted without explicit statement to that effect. It is equally logical to view it as saying "then I saw another vision," which may be unrelated to any particular chronology. Many of the visions of the Revelation are non-chronological in this way. Then I saw, then I saw, then I saw--all without a particular historical sequence. In fact I don't think it's possible that all of these visions succeed one another in chrononlogical sequence. And if the timing of the NHNE is not clearly determined by explicit statement, then we really have to determine when the NHNE will happen by other factors.
    I will not try to change your mind as the multiple, out of sequence visions interpretation of Revelation. If indeed God meant what he said and new means new, and He isn't being overly dramatic, a post-Millennium NHNE makes perfect sense. Why would go through all that trouble for such a short period of time? If the NHNE is the beginning of the Millennium, what exactly is the end of the Millennium and why does it have an end?

    This is another regular issue of mine. We can mix up the fires of the Battle of Armageddon with the terminal point of the Old Earth. How do we know that the Old Earth will burn up at all? If at the end of the Millennium the Old Earth comes to an end why does it even need to burn? Burning has to do with judgment, and the battle at the end of the Millennium does not sound like anything resembling universal destruction.

    I personally think many of the passages having to do with the destruction of the earth really refer to the Battle of Armageddon, which I believe will be a nuclear war. It will not end the world, but it will alter seriously the order of politics on earth, with Satan being bound, and with many of the wicked who follow Antichrist being destroyed in the battle itself. A world war with the use of nukes will surely destroy and remove many of the wicked in this age. The saints will be raised from the dead. Those alive and remaining will be glorified. The repentant will have a new go at it.
    I'm not sure why you bring up Armageddon here? It is a one time very short war. But, I have a totally different understanding of this war. It will be cave man style. All technology will be long gone by then. That is why they all have wooden weapons in Ez 39. Enoch 52 actually explains why there is no metal left on earth during the time of the beast. Anyway, that is a whole other topic. Btw, have you ever wondered why all the armies are gathered into one place for Armageddon? Aren't the Jews scattered to the nations by the AC? There is a reason, but it won't work with the single second coming theory. The elect are flown by the eagles into the wilderness before the beast even comes to power, just as we read in Revelation 12-13. That is why the beast's armies are gathered into one place, because the elect have already been gathered into one place, the wilderness.

  7. #22

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    If new means new, as in brand new, then the NHNE has to follow the Millennium. That is why I think it is important to believe that new means new. From what you know, would you describe the following as the coming of Jesus, or the end of the 1000 years?

    Isaiah 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, And shall totter like a hut;
    Its transgression shall be heavy upon it, And it will fall, and not rise again.

    Isaiah 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
    And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
    It isn't that simple. I think many of these prophecies were focused upon the contemporary culture of Israel, upon their experiences under the devastations of Assyria and Babylon. However, the principles applied there were given universal values, so that they apply in a very real sense *for all time.*

    For example, "I create new heavens and a new earth" have more to do with God's determination to make Israel a holy people in that time than in some prophetic scheme of events on someone's prophetic calendar. True, there will ultimately be a fulfillment of the time when "the sound of weeping will be in it no more." But that lays the groundwork in that time for the understanding that God is determined to have a holy people even at a time when that very people appear to be crumbling under the weight of judgment. The principles applied under the Old Covenant are what mysteriously created the NT realities, but were often not the NT realities themselves. That would come after Jesus came. True, some prophecies were true *future prophecies,* but this was more often relegated to more immediate fulfillments, rather than engender speculations about prophetic fulfillment in distant ages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P
    I will not try to change your mind as the multiple, out of sequence visions interpretation of Revelation. If indeed God meant what he said and new means new, and He isn't being overly dramatic, a post-Millennium NHNE makes perfect sense. Why would go through all that trouble for such a short period of time? If the NHNE is the beginning of the Millennium, what exactly is the end of the Millennium and why does it have an end?
    Good point. Maybe the point is not to create a new universe, but to actually fix permanently the old universe? To require a whole new Genesis account seems not only redundant but appears to be evidence of whole cloth failure of the Creator to make a successful universe that works and lasts. I do, however, understand the concept of turning back to the original purpose, of destroying the failed efforts of man, and a complete return to original innocence.

    I'm not even saying I necessarily buy into the Millennium/New Earth equation. You may be right that the New Earth follows the Millennium. I'm just saying that I don't know at this point, and that there is no real requirement *from explicit Scriptures* that demand a Post-Millennial New Creation.

    The belief that the many visions and scenes in Revelation are non-chronological goes without saying as far as I'm concerned. How can you, for example, fail to see a separation between the large vision of the scroll, which ends with the 7th trumpet, and the rest of the Revelation? These are separate visions! One ends with the coming of the Kingdom, so how can Rev 12-22 reflect a chronological sequence that follows the coming of the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P
    I'm not sure why you bring up Armageddon here? It is a one time very short war. But, I have a totally different understanding of this war. It will be cave man style. All technology will be long gone by then. That is why they all have wooden weapons in Ez 39. Enoch 52 actually explains why there is no metal left on earth during the time of the beast. Anyway, that is a whole other topic. Btw, have you ever wondered why all the armies are gathered into one place for Armageddon? Aren't the Jews scattered to the nations by the AC? There is a reason, but it won't work with the single second coming theory. The elect are flown by the eagles into the wilderness before the beast even comes to power, just as we read in Revelation 12-13. That is why the beast's armies are gathered into one place, because the elect have already been gathered into one place, the wilderness.
    You have a number of thoughts here, all worthy of more time later on. Let me just say this. I mention the "fires" of Armageddon because some like to posit the atomic destruction of the universe with the advent of the New Heavens and New Earth. But this atomic destruction is sometimes a reference to the atomic fires associated with the 2nd Coming and the Battle of Armageddon.

    I've heard the thing about "wooden weapons" making a come back. I think Hal Lindsey may have said that many years ago, or someone else, who wanted to apply Gog and Magog literally. I don't think that has to be in focus, since I believe contemporary language in the time of the Prophet can be used to indicate a future reality with a different technology. But who knows?

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    2,908
    Blog Entries
    19

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    VOTE: OTHER.

    Remember that John saw an image of a world. We don't know if it was a planet, or if it was a sky high view of a nice forested landscape. But it was an image of the world, the land.

    This image, did not represent the planet earth - literally - it represented the world of human knowledge and activity (Kosmos) symbolically. In the other places where the world is mentioned as Kosmos, it is not a reference to the globe, it specifically speaking of the world.

    Example: Noah's flood destroyed the Kosmos/World.

    Since it was not the globe that was destroyed, you can see that the world being referenced is the socio-cultural world that was washed away. It was the sum total of humanity's imprint on geography.

    This image of revelation is symbolic as they all are, for the effect of God's reformation of the world of human knowledge through his direct presence on earth.

    In both Peter and Collossians see the connection...


    Colossians 2:8 (KJV)

    8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


    1 Peter 3:10 (KJV)

    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.



    Strongs # 4747
    stoicheia


    This term is translated as rudiments/elements in KJV. In the interlinear it is translated as "principles".

    So here in this case we see Peter and Paul explaining that the primary concern is the principles of the world -- (the principle part) of what pertains to "worldiness".

    The conclusion is this -- the NHNE is an image representing the world after the removal of the stumbing blocks of sin, and is cleansed of worldliness. The physical world is not being recreated, nor is it being abolished and replaced
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    1,241
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Is the new heaven and new earth really all new, or just renewed?

    If you are in the "renewed" camp, what scripture do you use to make that interpretation?
    I believe the earth is renewed. I do not believe God blows up this planet and starts a brand new one. Please notice the following

    Those that believe God completely annihilate this present earth are in direct contradiction to the following verses

    Psa 78:69 And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever.

    Psa 104:5 You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved forever

    Eccl 1:4 One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.


    This Creation Restored:

    Likewise, Romans 8 tells us that this present creation was subjected to the curse "in hope" knowing that "the creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

    Rom 8 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God

    It is THIS CREATION that was subjected to bondage and it will be THIS CREATION that will be brought into liberty. A brand new earth would require that THIS CREATION be destroyed thus negating the purpose of being subjected "in hope".


    Restoration of All Things

    Peter stated that the 2nd coming of Jesus would bring about the "times of the RESTORATION of all things" which were spoken of by all the holy prophets.

    Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 "and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 "whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

    The prophets consistently spoke of the earth being RESTORED to its pristine state. The word "restoration" means to be brought to its "former state". Destroying this present earth is not synonymous with "restoration". God is bringing the world back to its eden like state, he is not annihilating it. The restoring of earth is a testimony of God's faithfulness to the whole of creation.


    The Patriarch's Eternal Land Inheritance

    God promised Abraham, Issac and Jacob through a unilateral covenant that they would inherit the land from the Nile to Euphrates river as a eternal inheritance.

    God made the promise saying "to you and your Seed I will give this land". Some people try to make this promise fulfilled vicariously through Abraham's seed alone, yet the promise was to both "YOU and your seed", therefore the land must be given also to Abraham, Issac and Jacob as well. Acts 7:5 tells us that Abraham and his sons never received any inheritance in the land that God promised them while they lived. Therefore, God must give them their eternal land inheritance upon their resurrection of the dead when "many come from east and west and sit down with Abraham in the kingdom".

    For those that believe that God will blow up the planet, they consequently make God unfaithful to Abraham in that they remove his promised inheritance. Under this theory, Abraham, Issac and jacob will eventually lose their promised ETERNAL inheritance of land from the Nile to Euphrates.




    Imho, new means new. The following scriptures make this understanding very clear to me.

    Isaiah 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard,
    And shall totter like a hut;
    Its transgression shall be heavy upon it,
    And it will fall, and not rise again


    I agree that his present earth will come to an end. Both "new" and "renewed" camps believe that. It is simply the nature in how it is changed that we differ. This verse in Isaiah 24 can also mean that the present "earth" (land) will fail and that this present earth in its unrenewed state will never rise again. Thus the reason for the need to have a change in the heavens and earth. Isaiah 24 does not exclude the possibility of a renewing of the planet, it only excludes the possibility of the this present earth from continuing as is.
    The very next paragraph indicates the continuance of the city of Jerusalem from which the Lord will reign AFTER the change in the heaven and earth (i.e. Sun and moon changed), thus there is not a complete destruction of the planet.

    Isa 24:23 Then the moon will be disgraced And the sun ashamed; For the LORD of hosts will reign On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem And before His elders, gloriously.




    Isaiah 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
    And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

    Im not sure what the main thrust of your argument is on this verse. Both camps can claim this passage. I see this as the renewing of the earth and sky. The commentary that follows in the next two chapters is clear that the present earth is renewed but that the natural geography of the present planet continues

    If your point is that the "former shall not be remembered or come to mind", I would say this is in context referring specifically to the "former troubles" (Isa 65:16) and its a Idiom. It does not mean that everything from the former earth will be forgotten in the age to come. If that is the case, then the story of redemption, namely of Jesus and the cross will be forgotten. Every redeemed person will no longer have a testimony to share. Jesus used the SAME analogy where he compared a woman in painful labor who "immediately forgets the pain" once the baby is born. Its a idiom. We know that every woman can recall the pain of labor, though it pales in comparison to the gift of new life they receive. In the same way, the new earth will make the old earth's troubles "forgettable" in comparison to the glories of the new earth.

    John 16:21 "A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world.



    Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away....5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.”
    The exact same greek construction is found in the writings of Paul here

    2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

    Notice that Paul used the terms "new" and "passed away" just as John did in Revelation 21. Paul speaks of the "new creation" and the "old things have passed away" whereas John spoke of the "new heaven and earth" and the "first earth had passed away". Therefore, we should not exegete the meanings of this using different hermeneutics. In Paul's passage a person is made "new" while remaining as the SAME HUMAN with the same skin, brain, emotions, intellect, memories, genetics, ect". They are however, gloriously renewed in their inner man and are being conformed to the image of Christ. In the same way, this earth will be made new, but it will still maintain connection with the old earth.


    Matthew 24:
    35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.


    The greek word "passed away" is "parerchomai" and it never means annihilated. It rarely means death or cessation of existence. Instead, it is constantly used in the new testament to mean a change from one location or existence to another. The earth going through "parerchomai" simply means that it will change from its present condition to a new condition. It does not demand that the present earth will be annihilated.


    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

    The first heaven and first earth pass away prior to the new ones being created. This does not apply to the second or third heaven, only the first heaven. The earth falls and does not rise again, nor does it even come to mind. (Btw, that is why the wheat is gathered into the barn at the end of the age. The first earth is destroyed, then the new one is created.)
    As stated in post number 7 the word "elements" does not mean micro physics

    Peter began his entire dialogue in chapter 3 about the New Heavens and Earth by seeking to remind his readers of the writings of the prophets.


    2 Pet 3:1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets ...


    Therefore, we should not read this chapter in a utter vacuum disconnected from the the writings of the prophets especially on the subject of the new heavens and new earth. Yet, when we read the prophets that specifically spoke of the NHNE, (Isaiah and the Psalmist) we find that in each of the passages it speaks of the present earth or the present order of creation continuing after the NHNE are formed. This demands that there is consistency and carry over from the former earth into the new one.


    Isa 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy. 19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying. 20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. 22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them. 24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD.

    As one can see, the above passage about the NHNE follows with the natural order and natural processes of this earth continuing. Men can still sin, die, give birth, become old, plant vinyards, eat fruit, ect. I want to highlight verse 25 because Isaiah already quoted this verse in chapter 11 and in that chapter it speaks of known geographic territories related to this present earth in existence at that time. This means that the New Earth cannot be a totally different planet that the current one.

    Isa 11:6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea. 10 "And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious." 11 It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea. 12 He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth. 13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart, And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, And Judah shall not harass Ephraim. 14 But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west; Together they shall plunder the people of the East; They shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab; And the people of Ammon shall obey them. 15 The LORD will utterly destroy[fn] the tongue of the Sea of Egypt; With His mighty wind He will shake His fist over the River, And strike it in the seven streams, And make men cross over dryshod. 16 There will be a highway for the remnant of His people Who will be left from Assyria, As it was for Israel In the day that he came up from the land of Egypt.


    Isaiah 66 also speaks of the NHNE. In verse 15-17 it speaks of the time when the Lord will come in fire and judgment just like 2 Pet 3 does. YEt, AFTER this judgment, the Lor sends out messengers to known geographic lands that are present on this current earth. Therefore, the entire planet is NOT annihilated by the fire of the Lord.


    Isa 66:14 When you see this, your heart shall rejoice, And your bones shall flourish like grass; The hand of the LORD shall be known to His servants, And His indignation to His enemies. 15 For behold, the LORD will come with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by His sword The LORD will judge all flesh; And the slain of the LORD shall be many. 17 "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens After an idol in the midst, Eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together," says the LORD. 18 "For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. 19 "I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. 20 "Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the LORD out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 "And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites," says the LORD. 22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD. 24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."


    One last point that I would highlight from 2 Pet 3 is this verse

    2 Pet 3:5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    Peter called the "old" heavens and earth the one that existed before the flood of Noah. Peter said that the Pre flood earth "perished". Peter then described the heaven and earth "which are now" to be a new one compared to the old one and that we are currently looking forward to a subsequent NHNE in the next age. The greek word "perish" (apollymi) regarding the Pre flood earth means "to put out of the way entirely, destroy, abolish, put an end to". It is clear that Peter is using hyperbole here. In no way did the old earth become "destroyed". When the flood waters receded, the same earth, albeit changed geographically and atmospherically (rain came front he sky now) was restored. In the same hyperbolic hermeneutic, Peter will go on to describe the change from this current earth to the next one at the 2nd coming.

    There are many more scripture, but these are a few that leave no room for a "renewed" earth. It seems to me that those who do not actually believe God created this universe in six literal days also seem to in the renewed camp. What say you?
    This seems like a non sequitur. Why does believing in a restored creation require a old earth theory?


    I would also like to point out that the testimony of earliest church fathers was that this present creation and earth would be restored. They did not believe that God would completely wipe out this planet. It is likely that this was the teaching of the apostles and Christ that was handed down to them.

    Against Heresies Book 5 XXXII
    Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain [orthodox persons] are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God’s dispensations, and of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the [earthly] kingdom which is the commencement of incorruption, by means of which kingdom those who shall be worthy are accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature ; and it is necessary to tell them respecting those things, that it behoves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign. For God is rich in all things, and all things are His. It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous; and the apostle has made this plain in the Epistle to the Romans, when he thus speaks: “For the expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature has been subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope; since the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.” (Rom 8:19, etc.)... Now God made promise of the earth to Abraham and his seed; yet neither Abraham nor his seed, that is, those who are justified by faith, do now receive any inheritance in it; but they shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For God is true and faithful; and on this account He said, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.” (Mat 5:5) . 1.For this reason, when about to undergo His sufferings, that He might declare to Abraham and those with him the glad tidings of the inheritance being thrown open, [Christ], after He had given thanks while holding the cup, and had drunk of it, and given it to the disciples, said to them: “Drink ye all of it: this is My blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of this vine, until that day when I will drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” (Mat 26:27) Thus, then, He will Himself renew the inheritance of the earth, and will re-organize the mystery of the glory of [His] sons; as David says, “He who hath renewed the face of the earth.” (Psa 104:30) He promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with His disciples, thus indicating both these points: the inheritance of the earth in which the new fruit of the vine is drunk, and the resurrection of His disciples in the flesh. For the new flesh which rises again is the same which also received the new cup. And He cannot by any means be understood as drinking of the fruit of the vine when settled down with his [disciples] above in a super-celestial place; nor, again, are they who drink it devoid of flesh, for to drink of that which flows from the vine pertains to flesh, and not spirit.

  10. #25

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    I believe the earth is renewed. I do not believe God blows up this planet and starts a brand new one. Please notice the following

    Those that believe God completely annihilate this present earth are in direct contradiction to the following verses

    Psa 78:69 And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever.

    Psa 104:5 You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved forever

    Eccl 1:4 One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.


    This Creation Restored:

    Likewise, Romans 8 tells us that this present creation was subjected to the curse "in hope" knowing that "the creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

    Rom 8 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God

    It is THIS CREATION that was subjected to bondage and it will be THIS CREATION that will be brought into liberty. A brand new earth would require that THIS CREATION be destroyed thus negating the purpose of being subjected "in hope".


    Restoration of All Things

    Peter stated that the 2nd coming of Jesus would bring about the "times of the RESTORATION of all things" which were spoken of by all the holy prophets.

    Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 "and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 "whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

    The prophets consistently spoke of the earth being RESTORED to its pristine state. The word "restoration" means to be brought to its "former state". Destroying this present earth is not synonymous with "restoration". God is bringing the world back to its eden like state, he is not annihilating it. The restoring of earth is a testimony of God's faithfulness to the whole of creation.


    The Patriarch's Eternal Land Inheritance

    God promised Abraham, Issac and Jacob through a unilateral covenant that they would inherit the land from the Nile to Euphrates river as a eternal inheritance.

    God made the promise saying "to you and your Seed I will give this land". Some people try to make this promise fulfilled vicariously through Abraham's seed alone, yet the promise was to both "YOU and your seed", therefore the land must be given also to Abraham, Issac and Jacob as well. Acts 7:5 tells us that Abraham and his sons never received any inheritance in the land that God promised them while they lived. Therefore, God must give them their eternal land inheritance upon their resurrection of the dead when "many come from east and west and sit down with Abraham in the kingdom".

    For those that believe that God will blow up the planet, they consequently make God unfaithful to Abraham in that they remove his promised inheritance. Under this theory, Abraham, Issac and jacob will eventually lose their promised ETERNAL inheritance of land from the Nile to Euphrates.






    I agree that his present earth will come to an end. Both "new" and "renewed" camps believe that. It is simply the nature in how it is changed that we differ. This verse in Isaiah 24 can also mean that the present "earth" (land) will fail and that this present earth in its unrenewed state will never rise again. Thus the reason for the need to have a change in the heavens and earth. Isaiah 24 does not exclude the possibility of a renewing of the planet, it only excludes the possibility of the this present earth from continuing as is.
    The very next paragraph indicates the continuance of the city of Jerusalem from which the Lord will reign AFTER the change in the heaven and earth (i.e. Sun and moon changed), thus there is not a complete destruction of the planet.

    Isa 24:23 Then the moon will be disgraced And the sun ashamed; For the LORD of hosts will reign On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem And before His elders, gloriously.







    Im not sure what the main thrust of your argument is on this verse. Both camps can claim this passage. I see this as the renewing of the earth and sky. The commentary that follows in the next two chapters is clear that the present earth is renewed but that the natural geography of the present planet continues

    If your point is that the "former shall not be remembered or come to mind", I would say this is in context referring specifically to the "former troubles" (Isa 65:16) and its a Idiom. It does not mean that everything from the former earth will be forgotten in the age to come. If that is the case, then the story of redemption, namely of Jesus and the cross will be forgotten. Every redeemed person will no longer have a testimony to share. Jesus used the SAME analogy where he compared a woman in painful labor who "immediately forgets the pain" once the baby is born. Its a idiom. We know that every woman can recall the pain of labor, though it pales in comparison to the gift of new life they receive. In the same way, the new earth will make the old earth's troubles "forgettable" in comparison to the glories of the new earth.

    John 16:21 "A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world.





    The exact same greek construction is found in the writings of Paul here

    2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

    Notice that Paul used the terms "new" and "passed away" just as John did in Revelation 21. Paul speaks of the "new creation" and the "old things have passed away" whereas John spoke of the "new heaven and earth" and the "first earth had passed away". Therefore, we should not exegete the meanings of this using different hermeneutics. In Paul's passage a person is made "new" while remaining as the SAME HUMAN with the same skin, brain, emotions, intellect, memories, genetics, ect". They are however, gloriously renewed in their inner man and are being conformed to the image of Christ. In the same way, this earth will be made new, but it will still maintain connection with the old earth.




    The greek word "passed away" is "parerchomai" and it never means annihilated. It rarely means death or cessation of existence. Instead, it is constantly used in the new testament to mean a change from one location or existence to another. The earth going through "parerchomai" simply means that it will change from its present condition to a new condition. It does not demand that the present earth will be annihilated.




    As stated in post number 7 the word "elements" does not mean micro physics

    Peter began his entire dialogue in chapter 3 about the New Heavens and Earth by seeking to remind his readers of the writings of the prophets.


    2 Pet 3:1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets ...


    Therefore, we should not read this chapter in a utter vacuum disconnected from the the writings of the prophets especially on the subject of the new heavens and new earth. Yet, when we read the prophets that specifically spoke of the NHNE, (Isaiah and the Psalmist) we find that in each of the passages it speaks of the present earth or the present order of creation continuing after the NHNE are formed. This demands that there is consistency and carry over from the former earth into the new one.


    Isa 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy. 19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying. 20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. 22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them. 24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD.

    As one can see, the above passage about the NHNE follows with the natural order and natural processes of this earth continuing. Men can still sin, die, give birth, become old, plant vinyards, eat fruit, ect. I want to highlight verse 25 because Isaiah already quoted this verse in chapter 11 and in that chapter it speaks of known geographic territories related to this present earth in existence at that time. This means that the New Earth cannot be a totally different planet that the current one.

    Isa 11:6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea. 10 "And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious." 11 It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea. 12 He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth. 13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart, And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, And Judah shall not harass Ephraim. 14 But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west; Together they shall plunder the people of the East; They shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab; And the people of Ammon shall obey them. 15 The LORD will utterly destroy[fn] the tongue of the Sea of Egypt; With His mighty wind He will shake His fist over the River, And strike it in the seven streams, And make men cross over dryshod. 16 There will be a highway for the remnant of His people Who will be left from Assyria, As it was for Israel In the day that he came up from the land of Egypt.


    Isaiah 66 also speaks of the NHNE. In verse 15-17 it speaks of the time when the Lord will come in fire and judgment just like 2 Pet 3 does. YEt, AFTER this judgment, the Lor sends out messengers to known geographic lands that are present on this current earth. Therefore, the entire planet is NOT annihilated by the fire of the Lord.


    Isa 66:14 When you see this, your heart shall rejoice, And your bones shall flourish like grass; The hand of the LORD shall be known to His servants, And His indignation to His enemies. 15 For behold, the LORD will come with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by His sword The LORD will judge all flesh; And the slain of the LORD shall be many. 17 "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens After an idol in the midst, Eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together," says the LORD. 18 "For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. 19 "I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. 20 "Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the LORD out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 "And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites," says the LORD. 22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD. 24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."


    One last point that I would highlight from 2 Pet 3 is this verse

    2 Pet 3:5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    Peter called the "old" heavens and earth the one that existed before the flood of Noah. Peter said that the Pre flood earth "perished". Peter then described the heaven and earth "which are now" to be a new one compared to the old one and that we are currently looking forward to a subsequent NHNE in the next age. The greek word "perish" (apollymi) regarding the Pre flood earth means "to put out of the way entirely, destroy, abolish, put an end to". It is clear that Peter is using hyperbole here. In no way did the old earth become "destroyed". When the flood waters receded, the same earth, albeit changed geographically and atmospherically (rain came front he sky now) was restored. In the same hyperbolic hermeneutic, Peter will go on to describe the change from this current earth to the next one at the 2nd coming.



    This seems like a non sequitur. Why does believing in a restored creation require a old earth theory?


    I would also like to point out that the testimony of earliest church fathers was that this present creation and earth would be restored. They did not believe that God would completely wipe out this planet. It is likely that this was the teaching of the apostles and Christ that was handed down to them.

    Against Heresies Book 5 XXXII
    Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain [orthodox persons] are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God’s dispensations, and of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the [earthly] kingdom which is the commencement of incorruption, by means of which kingdom those who shall be worthy are accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature ; and it is necessary to tell them respecting those things, that it behoves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign. For God is rich in all things, and all things are His. It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous; and the apostle has made this plain in the Epistle to the Romans, when he thus speaks: “For the expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature has been subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope; since the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.” (Rom 8:19, etc.)... Now God made promise of the earth to Abraham and his seed; yet neither Abraham nor his seed, that is, those who are justified by faith, do now receive any inheritance in it; but they shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For God is true and faithful; and on this account He said, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.” (Mat 5:5) . 1.For this reason, when about to undergo His sufferings, that He might declare to Abraham and those with him the glad tidings of the inheritance being thrown open, [Christ], after He had given thanks while holding the cup, and had drunk of it, and given it to the disciples, said to them: “Drink ye all of it: this is My blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of this vine, until that day when I will drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” (Mat 26:27) Thus, then, He will Himself renew the inheritance of the earth, and will re-organize the mystery of the glory of [His] sons; as David says, “He who hath renewed the face of the earth.” (Psa 104:30) He promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with His disciples, thus indicating both these points: the inheritance of the earth in which the new fruit of the vine is drunk, and the resurrection of His disciples in the flesh. For the new flesh which rises again is the same which also received the new cup. And He cannot by any means be understood as drinking of the fruit of the vine when settled down with his [disciples] above in a super-celestial place; nor, again, are they who drink it devoid of flesh, for to drink of that which flows from the vine pertains to flesh, and not spirit.
    Really enjoyed that. Thanks!

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    In His Service
    Posts
    1,870

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Sin has corrupted everything in the universe and must be replaced with new..

    Mark 2:21 No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.

    22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.


    Jude
    Matthew24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



  12. #27

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    Sin has corrupted everything in the universe and must be replaced with new..

    Mark 2:21 No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.

    22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.


    Jude
    That is how I've always looked at it, since I was raised up in a lot of beliefs by assumption. But after taking a more focused look at it I recognize that there are two ways sin can be eliminated, by a complete destruction of God's creation or by a reformation of political order. The kind of order God commands can impose completely new rules on an old order. This could constitute "making all things, ie old things, new."

    The reason I believe that God will reconstitute "old things" is because a complete remake of the old order would require an end to the universe as God created it in the beginning. The Heavens and the Earth would have to pass away into non-existence, and there would have to be an entirely new Genesis account. But I don't get that in Genesis, and I don't really get that in the Prophets. Therefore, for me, it appears that the old Earth and the old Heavens will remain. They will just have spiritual rebellion removed from it, together with a change in any order that represents sin and its free rein.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    6,118

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That is how I've always looked at it, since I was raised up in a lot of beliefs by assumption. But after taking a more focused look at it I recognize that there are two ways sin can be eliminated, by a complete destruction of God's creation or by a reformation of political order. The kind of order God commands can impose completely new rules on an old order. This could constitute "making all things, ie old things, new."

    The reason I believe that God will reconstitute "old things" is because a complete remake of the old order would require an end to the universe as God created it in the beginning. The Heavens and the Earth would have to pass away into non-existence, and there would have to be an entirely new Genesis account. But I don't get that in Genesis, and I don't really get that in the Prophets. Therefore, for me, it appears that the old Earth and the old Heavens will remain. They will just have spiritual rebellion removed from it, together with a change in any order that represents sin and its free rein.
    Is it really any different that Jesus' own glorified perfected incorruptible body?

    It was raised anew, in power, glorified, immortal, incorruptible....but it was a change of His prior body; not an annihilation of His prior body; and a brand new ex-nihlo body created.
    He spoke of this referring to the scars in His hands and side post-resurrection. A brand-new Jesus body wouldn't have had the scars from His old body.

    Likewise, I Cor 15, in speaking of our future bodily resurrection; likens it to the process of a seed being planted in death and raised into a new form, a new stalk more glorious and unimaginable...but still from the old seed.

    Same as mentioned above, occurred with the Earth during Noah's destruction. Remade, from the residue of the prior; not complete restart from nothing.

    I see no reason to expect the creation itself not to follow these biblical examples of the glorification process.

  14. #29

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Is it really any different that Jesus' own glorified perfected incorruptible body?

    It was raised anew, in power, glorified, immortal, incorruptible....but it was a change of His prior body; not an annihilation of His prior body; and a brand new ex-nihlo body created.
    He spoke of this referring to the scars in His hands and side post-resurrection. A brand-new Jesus body wouldn't have had the scars from His old body.

    Likewise, I Cor 15, in speaking of our future bodily resurrection; likens it to the process of a seed being planted in death and raised into a new form, a new stalk more glorious and unimaginable...but still from the old seed.

    Same as mentioned above, occurred with the Earth during Noah's destruction. Remade, from the residue of the prior; not complete restart from nothing.

    I see no reason to expect the creation itself not to follow these biblical examples of the glorification process.
    Yes, that's how I see it too. Yes, I like the example of something produced from its seed. The seed represents the old creation. It is indeed a new form, and a new creation. But it is a creation out of something that previously existed. It is following the pattern of something that previously existed. So in a very real sense it is a *continuation from* the previous existence, rather than the complete cessation of the previous existence.

    To be completely new as in the cessation of the old universe to make way for a restart from scratch seems to go far beyond the words of the Prophets. They seemed to always assume the universe was forever. I think that it's in our modern, scientifically-advanced world that we started reading back into the Prophets' writings the concept of a temporal universe. What they meant by a temporal universe would've been very different by what we mean by it.

    It makes much more sense for God to rearrange matter and energy than to make it disappear only to begin again from scratch. That would leave us all, in whatever form we are in, without existence ourselves! We would literally have to pass from existence in order to be recreated. And that doesn't seem likely or necessary to me. After all, if we have "eternal life" now--and we do--then it would be wrong to pass from existence for even a micro-second!

  15. #30
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    True north strong and free
    Posts
    5,992

    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    It seems like a waste of a perfectly good universe if it is not renewed.
    It is only the cynic who claims “to speak the truth” at all times and in all places to all men in the same way, but who, in fact, displays nothing but a lifeless image of the truth… He dons the halo of the fanatical devotee of truth who can make no allowance for human weaknesses; but, in fact, he is destroying the living truth between men. He wounds shame, desecrates mystery, breaks confidence, betrays the community in which he lives, and laughs arrogantly at the devastation he has wrought and at the human weakness which “cannot bear the truth”. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in Ethics.


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. In Heaven or on Earth?
    By Soldier_of_Faith in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: Apr 12th 2015, 12:36 AM
  2. New Heaven and New Earth (Rev. 21)
    By RollTide21 in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: Mar 10th 2011, 01:32 AM
  3. New Heaven and New Earth
    By Searcher1 in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 61
    Last Post: Jun 2nd 2009, 07:04 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •