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Thread: The question of Heaven and Afterlife

  1. #1

    The question of Heaven and Afterlife

    We like to think our deceased loved ones die and go to heaven. But I ask if they enter heaven then they have surely been judged, in which case there would be no scripture about Judgement Day. I just want to get everyone's take on that. Cause personally I believe we live in an afterlife on Earth, but on different plateaus and in different dimensions while we wait for Judgement Day.

  2. #2

    Re: The question of Heaven and Afterlife

    Quote Originally Posted by InthenameofJesus View Post
    We like to think our deceased loved ones die and go to heaven. But I ask if they enter heaven then they have surely been judged, in which case there would be no scripture about Judgement Day. I just want to get everyone's take on that. Cause personally I believe we live in an afterlife on Earth, but on different plateaus and in different dimensions while we wait for Judgement Day.
    Just because there is a Judgement Day for the unsaved does not mean that the saved do not enter Heaven immediately after death. Christians will also be judged for their works at the Judgement Seat of Christ (which is in Heaven) but that does not prevent them from entering Heaven by the grace of God. As to any afterlife on earth, that would be pure speculation.

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    Re: The question of Heaven and Afterlife

    Jesus said to the man crucified with Him "TODAY you will be with Me in paradise" which seems to make clear that as soon as we die we are with the Lord.

  4. #4

    Re: The question of Heaven and Afterlife

    Quote Originally Posted by captain kayoss View Post
    One cannot enter heaven without first being judged. We are not judged until the return of Christ and after the resurrection which I believe happens in Revelation 14. Paradise is a place of rest, it isn't heaven, and there's not one verse that says we go to heaven after we die. We go to paradise to await the resurrection. It makes no sense to me that one would go directly to heaven before the resurrection.
    Actually the Lord Jesus Christ took the judgment of every believer upon Himself when He died on the cross and shed His blood for our redemption. As stated in Isaiah 53:6 -- All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. So that issue was already settled long ago. If you have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, you have received the robe of His righteousness.

    You say Paradise is NOT in Heaven, but the Bible says that it is indeed, and the apostle Paul entered Paradise and returned to earth. So are you prepared to believe Scripture and believe God? (2 Cor 12:2-4): I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    You say that there is not one verse which says that when we die we go to Heaven? If I were to produce it, would you believe it, or try to dodge its plain meaning? We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor 5:8). Please read Acts 7 and 8 to confirm that this is the experience of believers immediately upon death.

    "It makes no sense to me" indicates that you prefer to use human logic to understand spiritual things. But that's not how it works.

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    Re: The question of Heaven and Afterlife

    Quote Originally Posted by InthenameofJesus View Post
    We like to think our deceased loved ones die and go to heaven. But I ask if they enter heaven then they have surely been judged, in which case there would be no scripture about Judgement Day. I just want to get everyone's take on that. Cause personally I believe we live in an afterlife on Earth, but on different plateaus and in different dimensions while we wait for Judgement Day.
    You are more or less correct. The Bible does not leave us without information on this.

    Death
    Man is made of THREE parts; (1) spirit, (2) soul and (3) body (Gen.3:7; 1st Thess.5:23). Since God made man, the Bible calls men "souls" (e.g. Gen.3:7, 12:5 46:15; Ex.1:5; Act.2:41). That is, the man is his soul. At death the person is torn apart. We know from both scripture and observation that the body is place on, or very near, the surface of the earth, and returns to the dusty elements of the earth (Gen.3:19). According to Ecclesiastes 3:21 and 12:17, the spirit returns to God at death. And from a mound of scriptures, both Old Testament and New, the soul goes to a place deep under the earth. Resurrection is the reversal of this sundering of body, soul and spirit (1st Ki.17:21-22; Lk.8:55).

    The death of our Lord Jesus followed this pattern as well. He commended His spirit to God in heaven (Lk.23:46), His body was laid in a Sepulcher on the surface of the earth, and His soul went to "the heart of the earth" (Matt.12:40: Eph.4:9). Acts 2:28-34 show that (1) David is still dead 50 days after Christ's resurrection, (2) his body is still in the Sepulcher in Jerusalem, (3) his soul in still in Hades, (4) Christ's body is not in the Sepulcher anymore, and (4) Christ's soul is not in Hades anymore.

    Despite the flourishing doctrine prevailing in Christianity that people go to heaven when they die, there is not a single verse that says this, or even alludes to it. This is remarkable because the word "heaven", "heavens" and "heavenly" appear over 290 times in the New Testament. The only men in heaven are men who are alive like Elijah and our Lord Jesus Himself. It is remarkable that fundamental Christianity has never actively subjected the Roman Catholic doctrine of "going to heaven", a heathen and occult doctrine from those who worship the stars, to scrutiny. Consider this evidence;
    • All the Old Testament references to the matter talk of a man's soul in Sheol
    • All the New Testament references to this matter talk of a man's soul in Hades, including our Lord's (Act.2:27, 31)
    • Our Lord promised a man (the thief) who believed who He was, to be with him in Paradise, and the plain language of scripture, which is in tune with ALL the rest of scripture, points to a place deep under the earth
    • There is not a single verse in scripture indicating that Hades has changed position from deep in the earth to the highest heaven. Even at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, as the White Throne judgement looms, Hades gives "UP" its dead (Rev.20:13).
    • The dead ALWAYS "rise", showing an upward direction (even our Lord Jesus)
    • A dead man is naked (2nd Cor.5:3). Throughout scripture "nakedness" is an accusation from God against man (Ex.32:25; 2nd Chr.28:19; Ezek.16:22, 23:29; Rev.3:17 etc.). The first thing that God does is make clothes for Adam, and the Lord Jesus advises the Laodicean Christians to "buy" (pay a price, that is, it is not a gift) for white raiment. Israel is cast from their Land and their Temple for nakedness. This shows that God has no fellowship with the naked.
    • A dead man is unclean and proximity to it make that other person unclean (Nu.9:10, 19:11). Would God defile Himself in His sanctuary in heaven with the unclean?
    • Death is the great enemy of God (1st Cor.15:26). Shall God entertain His enemy in the highest heaven?


    Judgement
    Every judgement of men before the throne of Jesus is for LIVING men.
    1. The Christian is judged after resurrection and rapture in the air in front of Christ's "Traveling Throne" called the "Bema" (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10)
    2. The Jews are judged after their resurrection after the Great Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2)
    3. Those of the nations left alive after the Great Tribulation are judged alive in Matthew 25:31-46
    4. Those of the nations who are dead are first raised from Hades and THEN judged alive at the White Throne in Revelation 20

    Here we must comment on Luke Chapter 16. There, it would seem that the rich man experienced some sort of judgement because he was suddenly in agony after his death. But this agony of the soul (for the soul goes to Hades) could be a natural result of being torn from the body. and then facing his sins without distraction. The rich man called Abraham "father". That means he was a Jew and had thus broken the commandment in Deuteronomy 15:7-8. Notice that Lazarus had to be "comforted" (Lk.16:25) indicating that he would have had the same torment, but is relieved. We have the same when the thief next to our Lord Jesus calls on Him. He will still die, still go to the heart of the earth, but God has prepared a "Paradise". It is called "Paradise" because he would be with the Lord (Ps.16:8). Death remains an unnatural state for men and the promise to a Christian that death is made bearable is that we are with the Lord in Hades (Ps.139:8; Phil.1:23).

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    Re: The question of Heaven and Afterlife

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    Actually the Lord Jesus Christ took the judgment of every believer upon Himself when He died on the cross and shed His blood for our redemption. As stated in Isaiah 53:6 -- All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. So that issue was already settled long ago. If you have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, you have received the robe of His righteousness.

    You say Paradise is NOT in Heaven, but the Bible says that it is indeed, and the apostle Paul entered Paradise and returned to earth. So are you prepared to believe Scripture and believe God? (2 Cor 12:2-4): I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    You say that there is not one verse which says that when we die we go to Heaven? If I were to produce it, would you believe it, or try to dodge its plain meaning? We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor 5:8). Please read Acts 7 and 8 to confirm that this is the experience of believers immediately upon death.

    "It makes no sense to me" indicates that you prefer to use human logic to understand spiritual things. But that's not how it works.
    I would like to answer, if I may.

    Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10 are written to Christians. Thus, we will face judgement, not as the heathen, but for our works AFTER conversion. This is confirmed in many parables were the judgement of the Lord's SERVANTS comes when he returns (e.g. Matt.21:40, 24:46, 25:19).

    An examination of 2nd Corinthians 12:2-4 shows the following.
    • The travels of Paul to the third heaven AND to Paradise are two different journeys. Both the grammar and the use of the word "and" (a conjunction which joins two or more things) show that Paul had two separate journeys.
    • The word "UP" is not in the original Greek. The word for "caught away" in the Greek is "harpazo". It denotes movement BUT NOT DIRECTION. The text must supply the direction. This same word is correctly translated in Acts 8:39 where Philip is "caught AWAY". In this case it was lateral because he is then found in Azotus. If we insert the correct translation for 2nd Corinthians 12:2-4, there is no argument for Paradise being in heaven. It remains in the "heart of the earth" (Matt.12:40; Eph.4:9)


    Being "present" and "with the Lord" after death does not show that we are in heaven. The souls of dead men are in HADES where David's is 50 days after Christ's resurrection (Act.2:28-32). And so is the SOUL of the Lord (Ps.139:8). The souls of dead men go to Hades, not their bodies. The Lord Jesus is BODILY in heaven at the right hand of His Father. But His soul is omnipresent as Psalm 139:8 shows. So also are we WITH the Lord now (Matt.28:20), but not bodily. He is with, and in us as the Spirit (Jn.14:18).

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    Re: The question of Heaven and Afterlife

    Quote Originally Posted by InthenameofJesus View Post
    We like to think our deceased loved ones die and go to heaven. But I ask if they enter heaven then they have surely been judged, in which case there would be no scripture about Judgement Day. I just want to get everyone's take on that. Cause personally I believe we live in an afterlife on Earth, but on different plateaus and in different dimensions while we wait for Judgement Day.
    I believe we die, and are with Jesus just as the scripture states and we await resurrection.

    The trouble there is that many people suppose that being with Jesus means that we are also aware of where we are and can relate with him. This despite Jesus being raised, and in body, while we are formless.

    People imagine heaven as a separate world, but this is based on strange visions and stories in combination with scripture, as well as various myths and theories.

    I simply believe we are with Jesus but we are not active because in all places prior to resurrection we are still - dead. Our future home in the resurrection is this same earth and I believe the concept of life deals with the body soul and spirit all three being needed to be alive. you make a great point about judgement and judgement day.
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  8. #8

    Re: The question of Heaven and Afterlife

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Being "present" and "with the Lord" after death does not show that we are in heaven.
    Since the Lord is in Heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father, that is exactly where all the saints go (more precisely their souls and spirits).

    The souls of dead men are in HADES where David's is 50 days after Christ's resurrection (Act.2:28-32).
    Only the unsaved dead go to Hades after the resurrection of Christ. All the saints which were in Hades are now in Heaven. See Hebrews 12:22-24, where they are called "the spirits of just men made perfect".

    So also are we WITH the Lord now (Matt.28:20), but not bodily. He is with, and in us as the Spirit (Jn.14:18).
    While we are on earth this is true. But after we die we are in Heaven. See Acts 7 and 8.

  9. #9

    Re: The question of Heaven and Afterlife

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    People imagine heaven as a separate world, but this is based on strange visions and stories in combination with scripture, as well as various myths and theories.
    Heaven is indeed a separate world. What makes you think this is all fantasy? Where do you think the throne of God is located? Where do you think the throne of Christ is located?

    REVELATION 4:1-6

    1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
    2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
    3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
    4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
    5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
    6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

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    Re: The question of Heaven and Afterlife

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    Since the Lord is in Heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father, that is exactly where all the saints go (more precisely their souls and spirits).


    Only the unsaved dead go to Hades after the resurrection of Christ. All the saints which were in Hades are now in Heaven. See Hebrews 12:22-24, where they are called "the spirits of just men made perfect".


    While we are on earth this is true. But after we die we are in Heaven. See Acts 7 and 8.
    I think you will have to dismantle my arguments of my posting #5. I realize that you have most probably held the notion of going to heaven, like thousands of other well-meaning Christians, for years, but it is scripture that counts - not the traditions of men, nor of the Catholic Church. We cannot escape the fact that David, who believed in, and wrote so much about the coming Messiah in the Psalms, and thus a Christian, is still in Hades 50 days after Christ's resurrection.

    Hebrews 12:22-24 could not possibly mean that men are in heaven for the author of Hebrews writes, in the present tense, to men LIVING ON EARTH. The "YOU" in verse 22 is to men living on earth. It is much more a contrast of the deadly destruction that the Law on Sinai brought and the chastisement NOT UNTO DEATH that New Jerusalem brings in grace. New Jerusalem is never in heaven. It is heavenly in nature, but on earth. It not only comes OUT of heaven in Revelation 21:2, but is set before the NATIONS in Revelation 21:23-27. The NATIONS never ever go to heaven. In Galatians 4:26 it is already "mother of US (the living in Galatia) ALL (Christians, dead or alive) who are on earth or under the earth"

    In Revelation 6:9 we see the dead Martyrs still under the Altar at the close of the age. There are two altars in the Tabernacle, that of wood overlaid with gold, also called the "Shewbread Altar", in the Holy Place in God's Tabernacle that Moses had to copy (Ex.25:9, 40; Heb.8:5), and the altar of sacrifice, or killing, made of wood covered in bronze, in the Outer Court. This altar is not needed in heaven but on earth where Christ died for our sins. Thus, the martyrs, UNDER the Altar, must be under the earth - and this, at the close of the age. (Note that it was forbidden to have this altar even raised FROM THE EARTH, even a little, for it would reveal "nakedness" - the condition of the dead - Ex.20:26).

  11. #11

    Re: The question of Heaven and Afterlife

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    According to Ecclesiastes 3:21 and 12:17, the spirit returns to God at death. And from a mound of scriptures, both Old Testament and New, the soul goes to a place deep under the earth.
    You have stated that "the spirit returns to God at death" but refuse to believe that the spirits of believers go to Christ at death. Since both God and Christ are in Heaven, it should be clear that that is exactly where the souls and spirits of believers go. As to depending on Ecclesiastes for doctrine, that is typical of the cults, who fail to take New Testament truth into account. BTW David is with all the saints in Heaven, and only the unsaved are in Hades. So what you are promoting is FALSE DOCTRINE.

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    Re: The question of Heaven and Afterlife

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    You have stated that "the spirit returns to God at death" but refuse to believe that the spirits of believers go to Christ at death. Since both God and Christ are in Heaven, it should be clear that that is exactly where the souls and spirits of believers go. As to depending on Ecclesiastes for doctrine, that is typical of the cults, who fail to take New Testament truth into account. BTW David is with all the saints in Heaven, and only the unsaved are in Hades. So what you are promoting is FALSE DOCTRINE.
    Acts 2 clearly and unambiguously states that David is still in Hades 50 days after Christ's resurrection. There is no getting around it. Would it not be easier to post some scriptures that clearly and unambiguously state that the dead in Christ go to heaven? After all, if you want a doctrine of not murdering, you have clear unambiguous statements to that effect. So also for Christ's return to earth. So also for faith in Jesus. And again for the women's head-covering while they pray or prophesy. But I think you already know that you will not find even two verses that clearly and unambiguously state this. Don't you think that this MASSIVE doctrine should have some scripture that is not innuendo?

    The word "heaven", "heavens" and "heavenly" appear over 290 times in the New Testament. The Lord requires at least two witness to establish every thing. So may I ask for two, or more, verses that directly and unambiguously say that the dead in Christ go to heaven. As I established in my posting #5, a man is always regarded as a "SOUL". I have given a handful of scriptures that say that the SOUL of a man, which is the man, goes to Hades to wait for resurrect. That is why, in ever case, the dead "RISE". Did not our Lord Jesus "DESCEND to the lower parts, the heart of the earth at death? His body did not, nor did his spirit. It is the SOUL of man that must RISE.

    Even in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18, the dead RISE to the surface of the earth, and then TOGETHER with the living, are caught UP to the sky. If they were already in heaven, how could this be possible? And it is no good referring to verse 14. Verse 14 says that Christ will bring those who sleep with him, and verse 15 starts with "FOR". That is, verse 15 onward is given to explain how the dead, who are below the earth will return with Christ as Enoch and Zechariah prophesied (Jude 1:14, Zech.14:5).

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    Re: The question of Heaven and Afterlife

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    Heaven is indeed a separate world. What makes you think this is all fantasy? Where do you think the throne of God is located? Where do you think the throne of Christ is located?

    REVELATION 4:1-6

    1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
    2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
    3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
    4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
    5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
    6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
    I believe that was a vision for its symbolic value. John was in the spirit from verse 2 on. I don't think he was relocated. He was in a trance or dream state. The door he went through was a visual transition.

    I could be convinced that he was in a "world", because I have formerly held that view. But I find it less and less likely because the literal interpretation of the things he saw in heaven becomes excessively hard to trace.

    Was a dream every so real to you you could touch it? If you touched it, was it real?
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

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    Re: The question of Heaven and Afterlife

    I believe The Kingdom of Heaven is being with Jesus --- in heart mind and spirit. Body has no matter. So if one died in Him, one is at rest in Him until He comes to give me a new body. Then I will still be "with" Him in a different phase.

    I do not get disconnected from Him spiritually because I physically die. I am unsure about what the connection will be, but it will not be total disconnection.

    I say this because when Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees he told then the Kingdom of heaven was among them (not within them as many translations communicate) He is the One who is, always was and is to come. He is eternal, and relationship with Him is eternal from the moment a person is born again, born from "above". This is spiritual and heavenly-- Just because I die physically, does not mean my spirit suddenly stops having communion or "rest" with/in the One I entered into death, burial and resurrection with.

    I am good with sleep, if that is what He desires-- as far as my loved ones in Him? We are all in Him- perhaps not bodily mobile, but connected spiritually for certain. I am not in The Body of Christ now, then not in His Body then later on in His body.
    Of course I do not believe in relationship with "family and loved ones" as the same while on earth when we die.
    Peace to you!

    If anyone makes the assistance of grace to believe the gospel depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" - Council of Orange

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    Re: The question of Heaven and Afterlife

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    I believe The Kingdom of Heaven is being with Jesus --- in heart mind and spirit. Body has no matter. So if one died in Him, one is at rest in Him until He comes to give me a new body. Then I will still be "with" Him in a different phase.

    I do not get disconnected from Him spiritually because I physically die. I am unsure about what the connection will be, but it will not be total disconnection.

    I say this because when Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees he told then the Kingdom of heaven was among them (not within them as many translations communicate) He is the One who is, always was and is to come. He is eternal, and relationship with Him is eternal from the moment a person is born again, born from "above". This is spiritual and heavenly-- Just because I die physically, does not mean my spirit suddenly stops having communion or "rest" with/in the One I entered into death, burial and resurrection with.

    I am good with sleep, if that is what He desires-- as far as my loved ones in Him? We are all in Him- perhaps not bodily mobile, but connected spiritually for certain. I am not in The Body of Christ now, then not in His Body then later on in His body.
    Of course I do not believe in relationship with "family and loved ones" as the same while on earth when we die.
    It all boils down to two things;
    1. What does scripture name as the man - spirit or soul or body?
    2. Once that is settled, and the Person is defined, where does that part go after death?

    I understand the answer to be;
    1. The SOUL is regarded by all scripture as the man (Gen.2:7; 12:5, 46:15; Act.2:41, etc. etc.). The body is his tent or tabernacle (2nd Cor.5:1, 4) and the spirit is the breath of God that gives him life (Jas.2:26)
    2. The SOUL goes to Hades in the heart of the earth. Hades contains the SOULS of dead men. Hades has a separate compartment called Paradise. Those who go to Paradise are with the Lord Jesus' SOUL (as was the thief's who was crucified with Jesus). The SOUL of Jesus is omnipresent (Ps.139:8). The Lord Jesus' BODY is in the Father's throne in the highest heaven and the bodies of dead Christians are corrupted ON the earth.

    Thus, "the dead in Christ" are in Hades and with the Lord Jesus as SOULS. There are no dead Christians in heaven. To get to heaven you have to be "clothed" - that is be alive in the body as our Lord Jesus is, and Elijah (2nd Ki.2:1, 11). Heaven is not man's destination. He was made from the earth FOR the earth (Gen.1:26-28).

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