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Thread: The golden chain of redemption

  1. #1

    The golden chain of redemption

    In this thread.....whosoever will participate......will comment on each portion of this unbreakable chain of redemption offering on the portions mentioned in the text itself......

    Here is what is being discussed-

    1] WHOM.......not what.....He did foreknow.

    2]He also did predestinate......to be conformed to the Image of His Son

    3]called

    4]justified

    5]glorified

    Comments should attempt to work through the passage in a consistent form, using the wording found in the passage.

  2. #2
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    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    In this thread.....whosoever will participate......will comment on each portion of this unbreakable chain of redemption offering on the portions mentioned in the text itself......

    Here is what is being discussed-

    1] WHOM.......not what.....He did foreknow.

    2]He also did predestinate......to be conformed to the Image of His Son

    3]called

    4]justified

    5]glorified

    Comments should attempt to work through the passage in a consistent form, using the wording found in the passage.
    What are we meant to comment on (that is, with respect to what are we commenting on Romans 8)?

  3. #3

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    So now we get to define all the words and limit the scope of discussion to begging the question?

    Should be a short thread.

  4. #4

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    What are we meant to comment on (that is, with respect to what are we commenting on Romans 8)?
    Good question. Paul has offered core doctrines of the faith up to this point in the letter.

    Here Paul alludes to the eternal plan and purpose of God as it concerns the objects of His saving love.
    The passage shows in a seamless way How God saves from start to finish.
    The passage is consistent with all the scriptures as it speaks to those Elected by God out of fallen mankind.

    It does not speak of those who are passed by.......it speaks of those who when all is said and done are In Saving Union with Christ.

  5. #5

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Stew Ward's Hip View Post
    So now we get to define all the words and limit the scope of discussion to begging the question?

    Should be a short thread.
    It has been claimed that this portion has been dealt with......scripturally. I think we can do better.

    SWH......let's try this......you are sitting at a coffee shop....a local newsman sees you reading your bible, he pulls out his microphone and says......tell me what these two verses are saying...explain this wording to my audience....
    Post your reply now.........

    Notice.....I did not use colors or a large font.......I am looking for responses to the words in these two verses.....

  6. #6
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    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    Good question. Paul has offered core doctrines of the faith up to this point in the letter.

    Here Paul alludes to the eternal plan and purpose of God as it concerns the objects of His saving love.
    The passage shows in a seamless way How God saves from start to finish.
    The passage is consistent with all the scriptures as it speaks to those Elected by God out of fallen mankind.

    It does not speak of those who are passed by.......it speaks of those who when all is said and done are In Saving Union with Christ.
    Okay, but what are you looking for? For example, did you start this thread as a means of bringing our attention back to Romans 8, which you see as the foundation of a Scriptural argument against Arminian, and related views, and are wanting those who hold to such views to comment? Those who hold to such views will simply say that they (obviously) agree with Romans 8, and that they can't comment for their view, and against another, without knowing what the other view is actually saying -- what are you saying?

  7. #7

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    It has been claimed that this portion has been dealt with......scripturally. I think we can do better.

    SWH......let's try this......you are sitting at a coffee shop....a local newsman sees you reading your bible, he pulls out his microphone and says......tell me what these two verses are saying...explain this wording to my audience....
    Post your reply now.........

    Notice.....I did not use colors or a large font.......I am looking for responses to the words in these two verses.....
    Cant be done without reference to other passages and so-called worldly philosophy and reasoning.

    And I wouldn't have that conversation with a local newsman.

  8. #8

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    What is the meaning behind "The golden chain"?

  9. #9
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    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    In this thread.....whosoever will participate......will comment on each portion of this unbreakable chain of redemption offering on the portions mentioned in the text itself......

    Here is what is being discussed-

    1] WHOM.......not what.....He did foreknow.

    2]He also did predestinate......to be conformed to the Image of His Son

    3]called

    4]justified

    5]glorified

    Comments should attempt to work through the passage in a consistent form, using the wording found in the passage.
    I think the passage is a strong passage for those that believe in eternal security. But I am not convinced it is a strong passage for election. Seems to me the chain goes like this...

    "Those whom I foreknow" I believe this is those whom He knew would believe.

    From that it flows, that all who believe, are predestined to be conformed. In other words, I don't see this passage relating to election or predestination for salvation, but rather, a predestination for all who believe to be conformed to His image.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  10. #10

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    Okay, but what are you looking for? For example, did you start this thread as a means of bringing our attention back to Romans 8, which you see as the foundation of a Scriptural argument against Arminian, and related views, and are wanting those who hold to such views to comment? Those who hold to such views will simply say that they (obviously) agree with Romans 8, and that they can't comment for their view, and against another, without knowing what the other view is actually saying -- what are you saying?
    Another good question.

    I do not understand how anyone who studies the scriptures cannot see this portion as saying clearly what it does say. My perception may be limited but I try and learn what others do with a passage that causes them to have a wrong view of it.

    Notice.....I did not say.......a different view.......I said a wrong view.
    I agree with other cals on here on most things they post,even if they have a different way of explaining one thing or another. They might overall agree but not like how I post something......so it is different.

    Here I think any difference will be demonstrated to be clear error, and will show that the position is being built on a foundation of sand.

    Some who dislike/hate the position I and others hold.....will make general pronounced statements to the effect that this teaching is error.....when challenged on passages such as this....are unwilling and unable to respond because any response will be shown to deviate from the plain scriptures.

    If someone can show otherwise......this is their chance to show the error. The thing is I believe this format will show quickly who is in error, so many will not actually work through it....but instead all with one consent will begin to make excuses and look to deflect to.other things....

    If I am mistaken.....show it....offer biblical correction....not excuses about context,church history,breakfast cereal,font size, font color,......not.....I think you are saying.....I want each person to give their own understanding such as it is....

  11. #11

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    I think the passage is a strong passage for those that believe in eternal security. But I am not convinced it is a strong passage for election. Seems to me the chain goes like this...

    "Those whom I foreknow" I believe this is those whom He knew would believe.

    From that it flows, that all who believe, are predestined to be conformed. In other words, I don't see this passage relating to election or predestination for salvation, but rather, a predestination for all who believe to be conformed to His image.
    Thanks for responding Mark,
    What in the passage leads you to add the idea......He knew those who would believe....I do not see any indication anywhere in this text.......

    If the text stated...........for WHAT.....He did foreknow..........[those who would believe.....would.... be....what they do....they believe something]

    But the text is not addressing the condition or belief of the person....but rather, the person...WHOM.
    This is the first thing every Cal will see when they read your response.
    Do you see what I mean?
    You have given what you have tbought.the passage says, but I am asking....why should I agree with this idea when the passage does not describe.......what is believed or not.


    I cannot think of a scripture who.suggests that idea.....that we believe first, then God responds to our choice.
    I think if thought through this would be fatalism......God did not have any choice.....but saw something that he had to respond to? I could not defend that from scripture.Do you have a verse that teaches this, or is this just a thought you have had or heard suggested by someone? Why should I hold this idea.....based on what?

  12. #12

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Stew Ward's Hip View Post
    Cant be done without reference to other passages and so-called worldly philosophy and reasoning.

    And I wouldn't have that conversation with a local newsman.
    If it is a biblical passage that Paul offers in a great burst of praise to God all the way down to verse 39....
    Why would the meaning not be clear in the text?
    Is the meaning not clear, or, is it possible that you see what it says, but it does not fit what you think about salvation in general ? In other words.....why the need to go outside the passage...? Could you clarify your thoughts if possible?

    Why would you not answer the reporters questions and proclaim the Great work of God to a large audience of people who need the truth of God?

  13. #13
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    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    Thanks for responding Mark,
    What in the passage leads you to add the idea......He knew those who would believe....I do not see any indication anywhere in this text.......

    If the text stated...........for WHAT.....He did foreknow..........[those who would believe.....would.... be....what they do....they believe something]
    The rest of the scriptures. For instance, I can take John 3:16 as a standalone text, and ask you the same exact question, but you would want to use more than just John 3:16 to come to the conclusion you would give me.

    God foreknew believers. The text seems straightforward to me. Those whom he foreknew, He predestined to be conformed. i.e. all believers are predestined to conformity to Christ. Doesn't say they were predestined to salvation.

    I cannot think of a scripture who.suggests that idea.....that we believe first, then God responds to our choice.
    Jeremiah 18 suggests it.


    I think if thought through this would be fatalism......God did not have any choice.....but saw something that he had to respond to? I could not defend that from scripture.Do you have a verse that teaches this, or is this just a thought you have had or heard suggested by someone? Why should I hold this idea.....based on what?
    I think some people teach Calvinism to the point of fatalism. IOW, everything that happens was determined by God and we are all just living out our fate as it was ordained and predetermined and decreed.

    Jeremiah 18 shows God responding to man's response. God initiates, man responds, and man's response determines which way God deals with it.

    Jer 18:7-10
    7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.
    NASB

    Jonah prophesied rightly over Nineveh that it was to be destroyed in 40 days. God planned it, and then warned Nineveh about it. But God relented because Nineveh repented. Did God foreknow all this? Sure he did. Did He relent from what He had planned? I think so according to the text.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  14. #14

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    If it is a biblical passage that Paul offers in a great burst of praise to God all the way down to verse 39....
    Why would the meaning not be clear in the text?
    Is the meaning not clear, or, is it possible that you see what it says, but it does not fit what you think about salvation in general ? In other words.....why the need to go outside the passage...? Could you clarify your thoughts if possible?

    Why would you not answer the reporters questions and proclaim the Great work of God to a large audience of people who need the truth of God?
    Are you willing to apply the same hermeneutic?

    The meaning is crystal clear to me, based on my study of the rest of God's revelation of Himself in Scripture. I don't take any passage in isolation. That's how cults get formed. Scripture interprets Scripture, and your interpretation of "foreknew" in Romans 8 strains credulity.

    We probably agree on the rest of the passage, but an incorrect foundation leads to an incorrect building.

    I don't answer reporter's questions. Period. I don't need their filter.

    I also don't grab the microphone when standing at the ordering line at Wendy's and start preaching.

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    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    I do not understand how anyone who studies the scriptures cannot see this portion as saying clearly what it does say. My perception may be limited but I try and learn what others do with a passage that causes them to have a wrong view of it.
    Scholars on 'both sides' clearly see what Romans 8 say, yet still come to different understandings. Different, not 'wrong', because in light of compelling arguments for both positions, 'wrong' quickly becomes dogmatic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    Here I think any difference will be demonstrated to be clear error, and will show that the position is being built on a foundation of sand.
    I would doubt that. You'll quickly need to move off of Romans 8 and call in support from other Scripture (an option you've already opened), so whatever you think Romans 8 is saying, people are going to find different arguments as the meaning compelling. The issue here isn't Romans 8, but how we understand it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    Some who dislike/hate the position I and others hold.....will make general pronounced statements to the effect that this teaching is error.....when challenged on passages such as this....are unwilling and unable to respond because any response will be shown to deviate from the plain scriptures.
    Similar to how you rushed to the use of 'wrong view' above? No one here is going to say that Romans 8 means anything other than what it says. What they will disagree on, however, is what it means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    If someone can show otherwise......this is their chance to show the error. The thing is I believe this format will show quickly who is in error, so many will not actually work through it....but instead all with one consent will begin to make excuses and look to deflect to.other things...
    You haven't really defined a context for discussion, so I'd say you have high hopes here for something you put little effort into.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    If I am mistaken.....show it....offer biblical correction....not excuses about context,church history,breakfast cereal,font size, font color,......not.....I think you are saying.....I want each person to give their own understanding such as it is....
    Just one small problem with that: you haven't stated your view yet.

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