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Thread: The golden chain of redemption

  1. #16

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by jesusinmylife View Post
    What is the meaning behind "The golden chain"?
    Welcome to bibleforums,
    Later I will add what others have seen here, but for now many see the steadfast and perfect love of God being explained in step by step fashion of how God deals with undeserving sinners,chooses to set His saving love upon them in their sinful state, then transforming and sealing them in this unbreakable chain. Of redemption.

  2. #17

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Stew Ward's Hip View Post
    Are you willing to apply the same hermeneutic?

    The meaning is crystal clear to me, based on my study of the rest of God's revelation of Himself in Scripture. I don't take any passage in isolation. That's how cults get formed. Scripture interprets Scripture, and your interpretation of "foreknew" in Romans 8 strains credulity.

    We probably agree on the rest of the passage, but an incorrect foundation leads to an incorrect building.

    I don't answer reporter's questions. Period. I don't need their filter.

    I also don't grab the microphone when standing at the ordering line at Wendy's and start preaching.
    Well it's is good we will agree with most of it. It is okay that you disagree also...that is why these forums exist is to go over issues.
    So go over your view.....however you feel you need to then, no filters......give the reason for the hope that is in you from these texts......you feel my usage or the links I post are in error.....show why.....Offer biblical correction...I can take it.

  3. #18

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    Scholars on 'both sides' clearly see what Romans 8 say, yet still come to different understandings. Different, not 'wrong', because in light of compelling arguments for both positions, 'wrong' quickly becomes dogmatic.



    I would doubt that. You'll quickly need to move off of Romans 8 and call in support from other Scripture (an option you've already opened), so whatever you think Romans 8 is saying, people are going to find different arguments as the meaning compelling. The issue here isn't Romans 8, but how we understand it.



    Similar to how you rushed to the use of 'wrong view' above? No one here is going to say that Romans 8 means anything other than what it says. What they will disagree on, however, is what it means.



    You haven't really defined a context for discussion, so I'd say you have high hopes here for something you put little effort into.



    Just one small problem with that: you haven't stated your view yet.
    I am sitting in the truck here in Alabama at a dock being unloaded. I am typing with fat fingers on a small keyboard.
    When I get to my laptop I will be more detailed and have more to offer.
    Now.....you have made a response but.....not to the text as requested. Part of why I made yet another thread on this text....is......to deal with these two texts and the wording used......go for it.....let's see what is similar.....same scenario for you, you are in the coffee shop, the news crew comes in and asks you your thoughts on the wording of this passage......GO.....
    Ps.....you said others dealt with these words already......I said they did not......so far general comments...nothing on the specifics......as I said.

  4. #19

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    Welcome to bibleforums,
    Later I will add what others have seen here, but for now many see the steadfast and perfect love of God being explained in step by step fashion of how God deals with undeserving sinners,chooses to set His saving love upon them in their sinful state, then transforming and sealing them in this unbreakable chain. Of redemption.
    So it's basically a process that you're referring to as a chain of events. Is that right?

  5. #20
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    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    I am sitting in the truck here in Alabama at a dock being unloaded. I am typing with fat fingers on a small keyboard.
    When I get to my laptop I will be more detailed and have more to offer.
    Now.....you have made a response but.....not to the text as requested. Part of why I made yet another thread on this text....is......to deal with these two texts and the wording used......go for it.....let's see what is similar.....same scenario for you, you are in the coffee shop, the news crew comes in and asks you your thoughts on the wording of this passage......GO.....
    Ps.....you said others dealt with these words already......I said they did not......so far general comments...nothing on the specifics......as I said.
    I don't know what I'm supposed to say about the text, because I don't know what you're saying about the text. It says what it says, and means what it means. Since this is your thread, and you want to demonstrate every viewpoint other than your own wrong, why don't you present your view as the truth™ so we can examine it. I need context, and you aren't providing it.

  6. #21

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    We can get to the end of this thread quickly.

    Calvinists/Reformed see "Those whom He did foreknow" to mean that God chose a group, for no other reason than that He chose, to be called, justified,glorified etc...

    Non-Calvinists/Reformed see "those whom He did foreknow" to mean that God looked down through time and saw the choices that people would make in regard to salvation offered to all and then called, elected, justified, glorified etc.

    That's really the end of the debate.

    We all agree on the called, elected, justified, glorified, etc.

    We just differ on the mechanism of the "why"?

  7. #22
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    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    In this thread.....whosoever will participate......will comment on each portion of this unbreakable chain of redemption offering on the portions mentioned in the text itself......

    Here is what is being discussed-

    1] WHOM.......not what.....He did foreknow.

    2]He also did predestinate......to be conformed to the Image of His Son

    3]called

    4]justified

    5]glorified

    Comments should attempt to work through the passage in a consistent form, using the wording found in the passage.
    I posted the following into another thread, so maybe some of your 1-3 can be filled out based on that post. 4-5, I'd have to detail as I didn't touch on those two in that post.

    Anyway, 1 is clear. Those who God foreknow concerning specifically to the Romans verses are those who He knows WILL choose to believe...

    For some reason, all throughout your many threads, you are trying to say that foreknowledge is the result of God's will. If that was the case, then if God makes something happen (ordained) then foreknowledge is NOT involved in knowing the future. Foreknowledge is His awareness (due to omniscience) and involving both His omnipotence/presence to use the knowledge in an accordance to a plan He's designated from start to finish in the placing who/when/how they all are used (both for righteous acts - those who will believe and for unrighteous acts - those who will not believe).

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post


    For me, as concise as possible. Predestination is where God knows who will and will not respond to the work of Christ at the cross. Those who He knows will never choose to believe, He's predestined/chosen to works of unrighteousness. For those who He knows will believe, He's predestined/chosen/called/given/elected (the difference between righteousness and unrighteousness so add the term "elected") to works of righteousness.

    The terms called and given, referring to those called or given to Christ, still known to be people who would in time, believe and the when God needs them, the calling/giving happens (predestined).
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  8. #23

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by jesusinmylife View Post
    So it's basically a process that you're referring to as a chain of events. Is that right?

    Yes......God Saves sinners.......He did it on purpose, not by accident.
    This passage walks through some of what was acomplished

  9. #24

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    I don't know what I'm supposed to say about the text, because I don't know what you're saying about the text. It says what it says, and means what it means. Since this is your thread, and you want to demonstrate every viewpoint other than your own wrong, why don't you present your view as the truth™ so we can examine it. I need context, and you aren't providing it.
    Again.....make believe I am not here.......

    A random person sees you reading your bible.....he asks you......explain the wording of these two verses to.me....
    Go-

  10. #25
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    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    Again.....make believe I am not here.......

    A random person sees you reading your bible.....he asks you......explain the wording of these two verses to.me....
    Go-
    You are here, and you've already framed the discussion as an attempt to prove those who disagree with you as wrong. As such, I would expect my imaginary interlocutors to suddenly become mini-Iconoclast85's, so get to the point.

  11. #26

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    You are here, and you've already framed the discussion as an attempt to prove those who disagree with you as wrong. As such, I would expect my imaginary interlocutors to suddenly become mini-Iconoclast85's, so get to the point.
    I think of it as this......God wants us to understand so we can communicate to others.
    There is only one truth. There are many defective understandings that come short of the truth.
    We all have defective thoughts. I do not have to......win.....or you do not have to win vs.me

    If someone can correct the defects openly.....we all benefit from that privately.
    I am not your judge.....you are.not mine.
    We all do what we do before the Lord.

    When someone is wrong I do not have to prove it. Their own posts will show the error.
    I do not want them to continue in error.....would you?

    I do feel I know what this passage teaches. That is always subject to additional teaching and scriptural correction.
    Such correction needs to be demonstrated.

  12. #27
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    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    I think of it as this......God wants us to understand so we can communicate to others.
    There is only one truth. There are many defective understandings that come short of the truth.
    We all have defective thoughts. I do not have to......win.....or you do not have to win vs.me

    If someone can correct the defects openly.....we all benefit from that privately.
    I am not your judge.....you are.not mine.
    We all do what we do before the Lord.

    When someone is wrong I do not have to prove it. Their own posts will show the error.
    I do not want them to continue in error.....would you?

    I do feel I know what this passage teaches. That is always subject to additional teaching and scriptural correction.
    Such correction needs to be demonstrated.
    Then let us know what you think the passage teaches, and we'll reply, and go from there.

  13. #28

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    In this thread.....whosoever will participate......will comment on each portion of this unbreakable chain of redemption offering on the portions mentioned in the text itself......
    This is one of the most important passages in Scripture which reveals God's plan of redemption. It is also one that is frequently misunderstood (or misinterpreted).

    Here is what is being discussed-

    1] WHOM.......not what.....He did foreknow.
    Salvation began with God's foreknowledge, therefore Peter says that we are elect "according to the foreknowledge of God", and Paul says that Christians were "predestined from before the foundation of the world". In plain English, God knew -- even before He created the world -- as to who would believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.

    2]He also did predestinate......to be conformed to the Image of His Son
    This phrase should make it abundantly clear that predestination is not about who will be chosen to be saved (since God would have all men to saved), but rather about those who will be ultimately perfected -- "conformed to the image of His Son". God's plan of salvation is not simply about deliverance from Hell, but the transformation of every believer into the likeness of Christ (glorification).


    3]called
    It is through the Gospel that God calls sinners to repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). The Gospel is the "seed" of the New Birth, and only those who are born again can see and enter into the Kingdom of God.

    4]justified
    Sinners are justified by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. When a sinner is justified (declared righteous) it is the absolute righteousness of Christ which is imputed to him, just as Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness.

    5]glorified
    While sanctification is not mentioned in this verse, it is an essential step towards glorification. What it means is that the saints are separated unto God from the world and from its lusts, so that they grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior. However glorification occurs at the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church, when all the saints receive glorified bodies even as they are perfected and changed into the likeness of Christ (1 Jn 3:1-4).

  14. #29
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    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    In this thread.....whosoever will participate......will comment on each portion of this unbreakable chain of redemption offering on the portions mentioned in the text itself......

    Here is what is being discussed-

    1] WHOM.......not what.....He did foreknow.

    2]He also did predestinate......to be conformed to the Image of His Son

    3]called

    4]justified

    5]glorified

    Comments should attempt to work through the passage in a consistent form, using the wording found in the passage.
    Explain this golden chain.

    43 And he said to him, ďTruly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.Ē

  15. #30

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    This is one of the most important passages in Scripture which reveals God's plan of redemption. It is also one that is frequently misunderstood (or misinterpreted).



    Salvation began with God's foreknowledge, therefore Peter says that we are elect "according to the foreknowledge of God", and Paul says that Christians were "predestined from before the foundation of the world". In plain English, God knew -- even before He created the world -- as to who would believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.


    This phrase should make it abundantly clear that predestination is not about who will be chosen to be saved (since God would have all men to saved), but rather about those who will be ultimately perfected -- "conformed to the image of His Son". God's plan of salvation is not simply about deliverance from Hell, but the transformation of every believer into the likeness of Christ (glorification).



    It is through the Gospel that God calls sinners to repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). The Gospel is the "seed" of the New Birth, and only those who are born again can see and enter into the Kingdom of God.


    Sinners are justified by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. When a sinner is justified (declared righteous) it is the absolute righteousness of Christ which is imputed to him, just as Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness.


    While sanctification is not mentioned in this verse, it is an essential step towards glorification. What it means is that the saints are separated unto God from the world and from its lusts, so that they grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior. However glorification occurs at the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church, when all the saints receive glorified bodies even as they are perfected and changed into the likeness of Christ (1 Jn 3:1-4).
    Thanks for sticking with the format of the original post and thank you for offering your views on the five or six main link of the chain. I will answer this a little more in detail in awhile but I just wanted to thank you for having the courage to put up what you believe on such an important topic

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