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Thread: The golden chain of redemption

  1. #31

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    Explain this golden chain.

    43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
    Yes indeed......but the other thief never will know anything about the truth of this golden chain....many reject it.

  2. #32

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    I am going to go with, before the foundation of the world, God did foreknow those and did predestine them, to be conformed to the image of his Son. The setting apart of them would be through him God giving them his Spirit as an earnest of said conformation.

    These predestined would be; James 1:18 YLT having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit, of His creatures.

    My question is whether it be of Spirit or of creatures, why first fruit, why not just fruit? Why put first in front of the word if there is not to be second, also?

    Is this the time of the firstfruit or is it the time of all the fruit?

    What are they predestined as and for what purpose?

    That is how I understand, Whom he did foreknow, he did predestine.

  3. #33

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    I would like to back up my post with this.

    What are they predestined as and for what purpose?

    Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; V14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.(Giving them the Holy Spirit) Jews and those from the nations, Gentiles.

    The written word said he would do that, if scriptures needed I will furnish.

    After those of the Jews and of the nations, the first fruit of the Spirit have been taken out as a people for his name.

    V 16 I will return.
    and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

    Why?

    V 17
    That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, (<Those conformed to the image of his Son at his coming. The Son then being the firstborn of many brethren.) saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

    The purpose is to reign with Christ for the purpose of the residue of men to become fruit also. Yes or No.?

    That is why I understand Rom 8:28,29 as I do.


  4. #34

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    Explain this golden chain.

    43 And he said to him, ďTruly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.Ē
    Well for sure one will be of the first fruit of God's creatures.

  5. #35
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    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Stew Ward's Hip View Post
    We can get to the end of this thread quickly.

    Calvinists/Reformed see "Those whom He did foreknow" to mean that God chose a group, for no other reason than that He chose, to be called, justified,glorified etc...

    Non-Calvinists/Reformed see "those whom He did foreknow" to mean that God looked down through time and saw the choices that people would make in regard to salvation offered to all and then called, elected, justified, glorified etc.

    That's really the end of the debate.

    We all agree on the called, elected, justified, glorified, etc.

    We just differ on the mechanism of the "why"?
    Well, if Calvinists and Non-Calvinists disagree on the meaning of "foreknew" maybe they disagree on the definition of called, elected, justified, and glorified.

    For instance I imagine that Calvinists would define "called" in terms of God's irresistible grace, calling the elect individually.

    It is interesting that faith is absent from the list. Paul draws a straight line from "foreknew" to "glorified" without including any response from the victim of his grace. There is nothing about a gift offered or a gift accepted.

  6. #36

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Well, if Calvinists and Non-Calvinists disagree on the meaning of "foreknew" maybe they disagree on the definition of called, elected, justified, and glorified.

    For instance I imagine that Calvinists would define "called" in terms of God's irresistible grace, calling the elect individually.

    It is interesting that faith is absent from the list. Paul draws a straight line from "foreknew" to "glorified" without including any response from the victim of his grace. There is nothing about a gift offered or a gift accepted.
    Response is implied in foreknowledge.

  7. #37

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Well, if Calvinists and Non-Calvinists disagree on the meaning of "foreknew" maybe they disagree on the definition of called, elected, justified, and glorified.

    For instance I imagine that Calvinists would define "called" in terms of God's irresistible grace, calling the elect individually.

    It is interesting that faith is absent from the list. Paul draws a straight line from "foreknew" to "glorified" without including any response from the victim of his grace. There is nothing about a gift offered or a gift accepted.
    Yes, this is an interesting observation....God sets His saving love on an object , then secures them.

  8. #38

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Well, if Calvinists and Non-Calvinists disagree on the meaning of "foreknew" maybe they disagree on the definition of called, elected, justified, and glorified.

    For instance I imagine that Calvinists would define "called" in terms of God's irresistible grace, calling the elect individually.

    It is interesting that faith is absent from the list. Paul draws a straight line from "foreknew" to "glorified" without including any response from the victim of his grace. There is nothing about a gift offered or a gift accepted.
    I would say that being the called, the foreknown. the predestined, they were of the faith to come.

    And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith (Not what we believe with our mind but what came, an event) we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, Gal 3:23-25

    It isn't offered and accepted. It was by the faith that did come that the the grace of life was given V 21 to the promised seed V's 19, 16 through which the Spirit was shed forth V 14 and Acts 2:32,33.

    That is the faith we heard of, by which we received the Spirit, Gat 3:2.

  9. #39

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Well, if Calvinists and Non-Calvinists disagree on the meaning of "foreknew" maybe they disagree on the definition of called, elected, justified, and glorified.

    For instance I imagine that Calvinists would define "called" in terms of God's irresistible grace, calling the elect individually.

    It is interesting that faith is absent from the list. Paul draws a straight line from "foreknew" to "glorified" without including any response from the victim of his grace. There is nothing about a gift offered or a gift accepted.
    Faith not required?

  10. #40

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    Yes, this is an interesting observation....God sets His saving love on an object , then secures them.
    Text doesn't say anything about setting love on anything, or securing anything.

  11. #41

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Well, if Calvinists and Non-Calvinists disagree on the meaning of "foreknew" maybe they disagree on the definition of called, elected, justified, and glorified.

    For instance I imagine that Calvinists would define "called" in terms of God's irresistible grace, calling the elect individually.

    It is interesting that faith is absent from the list. Paul draws a straight line from "foreknew" to "glorified" without including any response from the victim of his grace. There is nothing about a gift offered or a gift accepted.
    I found this on monergism.com
    These statements have well been called, “The Golden Chain of Redemption.” Let us examine them carefully:

    Romans 8:29-30 For those whom (1) He FOREKNEW, He also (2) PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also (3) CALLED; and these whom He called, He also (4) JUSTIFIED; and these whom He justified, He also (5) GLORIFIED.

    One the best loved verses in all of the word of God is Romans 8:28, but most believers do not realize that the foundation upon which this great verse rests is the verses that follow, verses that describe what has been called “The Golden Chain of Redemption.” When Paul declared that God works “all things,” without a single exception, together for his own glory and the good of his people, he was making quite a claim. One might ask, “Paul, how can you make such a sweeping and dogmatic statement?” The next verse begins with the word “for” and Paul’s reason for being so certain is laid out in five tremendous statements. These statements have well been called, “The Five Golden Links in the Chain of Sovereign Grace.” Let us examine them.

    I. The first important thing to notice is the five things are linked together into one unbreakable chain. If one of them is true then they are all true. The word “for” in verse 29 begins the argument that proves beyond question that all things have to work together for good for the people of God. The Apostle lists five things that are certain to happen because of God’s sovereign purpose. God’s people are (1) all foreknown, (2) all predestined, (3) all called, (4) all justified, and (5) all glorified.

    All five of these things are set forth as not only essential to God’s eternal purpose of salvation but also as absolutely certain of fulfillment. They summarize the salvation of sovereign grace that has it’s origins in eternity with God’s foreknowledge and ends in eternity with our full glorification. Each link grows out of the former link to form one unbreakable chain. Every sinner who is “foreknown” is going to eventually be totally “glorified.” Notice how all five links fit nicely together.

    Romans 8:28 is the glorious declaration of that hope and assurance. We “know” something for certain, namely, that “God causes all things to work together” for a group of people described as “those who love God.” They are further described as those who “are called according to His purpose.” The second thing naturally follows after first thing. The first thing, loving God, describes the true character of a child of God. All true Christians sincerely love God. The second thing, “called according to his purpose,” gives us the cause that made the first thing possible. God purposed to have some people love Him and He sovereignly called these particular people by His power. We love him only because He first loved us. He called us on “purpose” according to his own plan. I am sure you realize that most people think God calls everyone in the same way and justifies only those who are willing to respond to the call in repentance and faith. This is, of course, half true but not true at all in the sense that Paul is talking about calling. It is impossible to fit that idea into this golden chain.

    II. When verse 29 says, “For those whom He foreknew,” it must be referring to a specific identifiable people. They are the identical same people who in verse 28 “love God” and have been “called.” All of those who are “foreknown” are also “predestined to become conformed into the image of His Son.” The foreknown ones and the predestined are the same identical people. All those who are foreknown and then predestined are next “called.” Being effectually called is the first step taken to bring guilty sinners out of the graveyard of sin and death and ultimately glorify them in heaven in full redemption. The order of these things is important. It is especially important in the next step. All those who are called, because they have been foreknown and predestined, are also all “justified.” In other words, everyone, without a single exception that is effectually called by the Holy Spirit unto salvation will always be justified.

    III. Four-point Arminian theology teaches that God calls all men without exception and those who, with their free will, decide to respond were then justified and predestined to be eternally secure. The predestining purpose of God always came after the sinner’s willingness to answer God’s call. It is obvious that this idea is not possible in this passage of Scripture. According to Paul, our calling unto salvation by the Holy Spirit comes after and grows out of our predestination and not vice versa. If that were not true, the text would say, “God calls all men, and justifies only those who are willing to believe.” However, the text puts the order exactly in the reverse order. We were not predestined to final glorification because we were willing to believe, but we were made willing to believe only because we had already been predestined. Calling is merely the first step towards the foreordained end of total glorification and all who have been foreordained to that end will be called and justified. The Holy Spirit clearly states that all without exception who are called are also justified. It is impossible to be called, in the sense that Paul is using the word “called,” without also being justified.

    Obviously Paul is talking about effectual calling, or regeneration. The first result of being called is that we are justified, and the final climax of God’s work is total glorification. All those who are justified will most certainly be glorified. That fact is so certain that Paul speaks of it as already past, and so it is in the eternal purposes of God. This is the only place in Paul’s writings where he jumps from justification to glorification and skips sanctification. It is not because he quit believing that sanctification was essential, but in this argument he is talking about the “eternal purpose of God” and present and ultimate glorification are completely and absolutely certain for every foreknown, predestined, called, and justified person.

    IV. Let me paraphrase these verses and answer the question, “How can I be sure God will do what he promised in Romans 8:28.” I can be sure because “Those,” all of them and only them, who have been foreknown by God in electing grace, are certain of ultimate salvation (total glorification) because God has sovereignly purposed to conform them, all of them and only them, into the image of Christ. God’s first step in this gracious purpose is to effectually “call” them, the foreknown and predestined ones, all of them and only them, by the power of the Holy Spirit through the gospel. Those, all of them and only them, whom he calls he also “justifies” and applies to them the righteousness of Christ. It is impossible to be foreknown and predestined and not be called just as it is not possible to be called if you were not foreknown and predestined. Likewise it is not possible to be called without that calling producing justification. Those, all of them and only them, who are justified are already glorified in the sovereign purposes of God. In God’s mind it is what we would call a “done deal.”

    To review what we have seen thus far, the biblical order of salvation is:

    Foreknowledge = Foreordination that is based in God’s eternal decree.
    Predestination/Election – God’s sovereign determination of who would be saved by His own good pleasure and not based upon anything in those who are chosen (Rom. 9:11).
    Effectual Calling – the outward call of the gospel comes to the sinner through evangelism and the inward call of the Holy Spirit experienced in the heart of the person brings about spiritual regeneration (John 6:44). This inward call is the “call” of Romans 8:29-30. This effectual calling leads to (a) spiritual regeneration which logically leads to (b) Repentance unto life/faith in Jesus Christ. Regeneration, saving faith, and repentance all occur simultaneously in time but logically, regeneration comes before faith/regeneration (1 John 5:1; 2 Tim. 2:25).
    Justification – the declaration of a sinner as righteous before God on the basis of Christ’s righteousness credited to them. The believer is also declared completely sanctified (holy) at the moment of justification but also continues to grow in holiness practically throughout life. Conversion immediately follows regeneration/repentance/faith and justification as expressed in an outward profession of faith and water baptism.
    Glorification (sinless perfection that only occurs when in heaven).
    Conclusion: It is important to realize that the “Golden Chain of Redemption”/Order of Salvation has as much to do with salvation stages as it does with the cause(s) of salvation itself. For example, the Reformed position has faith as an effect of regeneration rather than the cause of it (versus how the Arminians understand it). Thus, a person is regenerated by the Holy Spirit in order to be gifted with faith, but there is no such thing as a regenerated person that is walking about without saving faith. The two (regeneration and faith) go hand-in-hand and are assumed by the biblical writers to co-exist. So, what does this say about who is ultimately responsible for the believer’s faith? The Arminian position has the believer responsible for whether or not God saves him, and thus a person must persevere to the end before he can be assured of salvation. What does this say about a believer’s security? These and many other questions are dependent upon the “Golden Chain of Redemption” for their answers, and it is thus important that a believer understands from which perspective those answers are given.

    [1] This is also known as the “Order of Salvation” or in theological literature it is known more commonly by the Latin phrase Ordo Salutis.

    [2] Some definitions are liberally taken from the online Webster’s 1828 Dictionary and may be more or less modified to conform to modern English readers.

  12. #42

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    My question is whether it be of Spirit or of creatures, why first fruit, why not just fruit? Why put first in front of the word if there is not to be second, also?
    "Firstfruits" in this passage should be placed in the context of Romans 8:18-23, which speaks of the redemption of all creation (translated as "creature" in the KJV). In fact the term "firstfruits" appears in v 23. So what it means is that the saints are the firstfruits of redemption, followed by the entire "harvest" of a redeemed creation. Of course, this is only after the New Heavens and the New Earth are brought into existence.

    What are they predestined as and for what purpose?
    The answer to this question is found in Ephesians, chapters 1 & 2, which speaks of the "dispensation of the fulness of times" which will be "to the praise of the glory of His grace".

  13. #43

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    http://www.prca.org/sermons/romans8....l...:thumbsup:
    There's a wonderful comfort in this golden chain of which the text speaks. The comfort is found, first of all, in the absolute
    certainty of this: an absolute certainty. That is because we don't find our name connected with this work, but GOD'S Name. He Who foreknew, predestinated; He Who predestinated, called, justified, glorified. God does that all!


    Now we come to time. In time one sees another two links in this golden chain of salvation:
    calling and justification. "Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified." There you have again the work of God. God brings this chain of salvation from eternity into time. We see now how this chain involves our pilgrimage. In time are two links: calling and justification. These two links present in summary form the whole work of the Spirit in the hearts of God's elect including both faith and sanctification.


    You can find many Scriptural passages that show this to be the case. You can see, for instance, that "faith," (which the Arminian says that God "foresees" in every individual) is itself the
    gift of God. He does not simply foresee that we will believe, but He determines in His foreknowledge that we will believe. Ephesians 2:8 states, "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Or, John 6:44 declares, "No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me, draw him and I will raise him up again in the last day." No one can come except God DRAW HIM. Now, how do you apply that to God's "foreknowledge?" Foreknowledge is not that He sees ahead of time that we will come, but foreknowledge is exactly that He determines whom He will draw so that we come.

  14. #44

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Foreknowledge and foreordained are not synonymous

  15. #45

    Re: The golden chain of redemption

    Quote Originally Posted by Stew Ward's Hip View Post
    Text doesn't say anything about setting love on anything, or securing anything.
    The real biblical meaning of foreknow includes an intimate knowledge of the objects of His love;
    God's foreknowledge is much more than just having prescience of what will happen in the future, but its full meaning is beyond our finite comprehension. [Acts 2:23] speaks of Christ as being delivered to be crucified "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God."" His works surely were not planned merely by His foreknowledge of what they would be for that would place the power in the hands of man -- some say because it seems "logical" from our perspective that God looked into the future, saw what men would do and then He predestined them to salvation. That's not what Scripture says. That would put the initiative and impetus for salvation in the hands of depraved God hating men. We simply have to acknowledge that we don't have to explain this -- what we do have to do is rest in whatever He says for His ways are higher than our ways. By the way no where in Scripture does it say God foreknew or predestined anyone to hell.
    God foreknew that Israel would be His people (Ro 11:2-note), yet He later chose them by His own will. It clearly suggests planning ahead of time, not just knowing ahead of time. Nothing takes God by surprise; His decisions are not determined by our decisions. Yet in every case where God's planning and predestinating are involved (Acts 2:23), it is also true that those who acted according to His foreknowledge carried out those acts of their own volition.
    God promises
    Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved (see note Romans 10:13).
    And yet God also says that
    He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world (see note Ephesians 1:4).
    Our finite minds cannot fully apprehend both truths concurrently, yet we can rejoice in both with our hearts. God understands, because His understanding is infinite, and we rest in that.
    Before I loved Him, He loved me
    Before I found Him, He found me
    Before I sought Him, He sought for me
    Yes, Jesus cares for me
    -- Ron Hamilton
    preceptaustin rom8:29-30
    Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of HisSon, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; (NASB: Lockman)
    Greek: hoti ous proegno, (3SAAI) kai proorisen (3SAAI) summorphous tes eikonos tou huiou autou, eis to einai (PAN) auton prototokon en pollois adelphoisAmplified: For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)NLT: For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn, with many brothers and sisters. (NLT - Tyndale House)Phillips: God, in his foreknowledge, chose them to bear the family likeness of his Son, that he might be the eldest of a family of many brothers. (Phillips: Touchstone)Wuest: Because, those whom He foreordained He also marked out beforehand as those who were to be conformed to the derived image of His Son, with the result that He is firstborn among many brethren. (Eerdmans)Young's Literal: For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;

    Spurgeon - "Notice that personal pronoun “he” — how it comes at the beginning, and goes on to the end. “Salvation is of the Lord.” This is so often forgotten that, trite as it may appear, we cannot repeat it too often: “Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate Whom he did predestinate, them he also called, and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” You might suppose, from the talk of some men, that, salvation is all of the man himself; — that is free agency pushed into a falsehood, a plain truth puffed into a lie. There is such a thing as free agency, and we should make a great mistake if we forgot it; but there is also such a thing as free grace, and we shall make a still greater mistake if we limit that to the agency of man; it is God who works our salvation from the beginning to the end."

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