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Thread: Which is the Beast?

  1. #46

    Re: Which is the Beast?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    No, just like the Little Horn, they come up out of the Fourth Beasts Head. In Daniel it tells of the Fourth Beast then says AND........Dan 7:7.........all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    What you have there is a contradiction. You say, "No"--the 10 horns are not part of the 4th Beast. And then you admit the 10 horns "come up out of the Fourth Beast's head."

    So what is it? Are the 10 horns part of the 4th Beast or not? If you intend to make a point based on this contradiction it can't stand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    Notice the Little Horn is never seen in the Seven Headed Beast? We see only 7 Heads and 10 Horns. That's because the Little Horn is the Seventh Head, so we would have Six Heads (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome) and a Seventh Head (the Anti-Christ and 10 Horns).
    You're mixing together two separate visions, the vision here in Dan 7 and the vision in Rev 12-17. Let's compare...
    Dan 7: 4th Beast from the sea with 10 horns and a little horn
    Rev 12: Red Dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns, with crowns on the 7 heads.
    Rev 13: Beast from the sea with 10 horns and 7 heads, with crowns on the 10 horns and a 2nd Beast with 2 horns
    Rev 17: Scarlet Beast with 7 heads and 10 horns: 7 hills and 7 kings--6th king "is"

    The vision in Rev 12-17 is noticeably different from the 4th Beast in Dan 7 in the sense that the latter is a "4th Beast," whereas the former, the Scarlet Beast of Rev 17, was the *6th king* in John's day. What binds the two together is the fact both have "10 horns." Since the horns are crowned with the 1st Beast of Rev 13, and the 4th Beast of Dan 7 also has "kingly" horns, the 4th Beast of Dan 7 and the 1st Beast of Rev 13 are the most closely aligned.

    My thought here is that the Red Dragon of Rev 12, with 7 heads and 7 crowns, emphasizes the 7 heads as a succession of Kingdoms. Satan is a timeless being and has existed through all of these Kingdoms. And the 1st Beast of Rev 13, with its 10 horns and 10 crowns, emphasize a coalition of nations supporting the Antichristian Empire. Antichrist is a man who exists only at a particular moment in history, when his coalition takes form.

    There's no question the Revelation derives its material from the 4th Beast of Dan 7. What's in question is the degree to which we can compare them? For example, I can't say for sure that Antichrist is the 7th head of the Beast of Rev 13. The "Little Horn" of Dan 7, the Antichrist, is not said in Dan 7 to be the "7th Head." For all I know the Antichrist, or the "Little Horn," could be the "8th Head" of Rev 17!

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn,.......So we see these came up TOGETHER, and we know by reading Daniel 7:11 that this Little Horn/Beast is cast into the Burning Fire, just like in Rev. 19:20, where the Anti-Christ/Beast is cast into hell.
    Yes, this is the kind of argument I've been using lately, that the scenario in Revelation is largely derived from Dan 7!

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    In Rev. 17 we are told the 10 Kings have received no power BUT Receive power ONE HOUR (Short Time) with the Beast.
    Yea, that's a little confusing to me. How can this Beast, which reigns for 3.5 years, have 10 horns, or kings, that only reign with the Antichrist for "one hour?" Is this a literal "hour?" Perhaps. Perhaps the 10 kings support the Antichrist for 3.5 years, and yet only go into battle with him for a single hour? I don't know. It does seem to support my contention that the Revelation and its "wrath" is largely focused on a single day and hour at the end of the age. Many people falsely equate the entire 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign with a "time of divine wrath." I don't believe that to be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    So the 10 Kings are there, but this Man is the Beast., but only after he Conquers Israel, think about it, it says the BEAST is given power over the Saints (Israel) for 42 Months. Afterwards he is the Beast. CHECK THIS OUT....Even in Daniel he is called the Little Horn when he is first mentioned, but when he is cast into hell, he is called the Beast.

    11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

    So Daniel beheld the Horn boasting, being blasphemous etc. etc. but at the end, he called him a BEAST.
    Again, I think your're conflating some of the details of two separate visions, one in Dan 7 and the other in Rev 13-17. The vision in Dan 7 describes the 4th Beast as the entity from which the "Little Horn" comes. So the Antichrist comes from a Pagan Empire, which I believe represents the ancient Roman Empire and the 10 nations evolving out of that Kingdom.

    But the Revelation depicts a slightly different "Beast" after the Antichrist has already evolved out of it. In Rev 13 the Antichrist has already followed the "7 Heads." They are already 7 Kingdoms by this time, as depicted in Rev 12. And they are already 10 nations, as depicted in Rev 13-17. At this point the Antichrist is so associated with his Empire that they are both referred to as a "Beast." The emphasis appears to be on the *man,* with his empire being his seat of power. In Dan 7 the emphasis was more on the empire, out of which the *man* would come.

    But you haven't answered the question. You said that the Beasts of Dan 7 and Rev 13-17 can only exist in relation to Israel. However, you haven't established anything more than what Daniel and Revelation says, that God's "holy people" are being persecuted by the Antichrist. This could mean Israel or the Church, or even a combination of them. To me, "holy people" signifies Israel in the OT era and the Church in the NT era. The Church does include Israel among its many national members. But in the NT era Israel is no longer considered "holy," with the exception of a small remnant of Israelis who are Christians. So this is talking, I believe, about the Church. When Daniel saw his vision his understanding of the "holy people" was Israelis who had faith in God and who obeyed God. But since Daniel saw this vision of the future representing the NT era then the "holy people" had to represent the Church.

    So no, the 4th Beast, if it is to be viewed as Rome, does not require the existence of Israel, in terms of its being a nation in the Holy Land. Israel has continued to exist only in the form of a scattered people up until the 20th century. This 4th Beast of Dan 7 was supposed to continue up until the end of the age when it is "thrown into the fire." And, in fact, the Roman imperial tradition has continued all through the NT age and up until the present day. That's in essence what "Western Imperialism" represents--the old Roman Imperial tradition. And I expect that fairly soon the Antichrist will emerge and take control of 10 major Western nations.

  2. #47
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    Re: Which is the Beast?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Your post makes absolutely no sense at all.
    You seem very certain of exactly how the future will unfold, I can't argue with caps, bold fonts, and red highlighting.

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    Re: Which is the Beast?

    What you have there is a contradiction. You say, "No"--the 10 horns are not part of the 4th Beast. And then you admit the 10 horns "come up out of the Fourth Beast's head." .......So what is it? Are the 10 horns part of the 4th Beast or not? If you intend to make a point based on this contradiction it can't stand.
    Which means what? It means that they have to be two separate time periods, but in the SAME PLACE. The Fourth Beast is Rome. The Little Horn is cast into hell and he comes up with the 10 Kings as Daniel 7 says and as Rev. 17 says, they receive power "one hour" with the Beast. Why wasn't other Kings/leaders from the other Beasts mentioned as horns? I mean Persia, Greece etc. etc. had other Kings but their successors were not mentioned in like manner. The Four Generals were but in another chapter, yet they had Kings that followed them and no horns. THE ANSWER IS.......This Little Horn and 10 Kings is mentioned because he is the END TIME BEAST.....As is made clear in Daniel chapter 7 verse 11.

    Picture it like this, Rome is a Beast.......2000 years later, out of this former Beast (Europe/Rome) arises another RULER/KING/BEAST who arises with 10 other Kings, forms a Confederation with them, and they give their powers over unto this King/Beast. So these other Horns arise out of this other Beasts former territory.

    You're mixing together two separate visions, the vision here in Dan 7 and the vision in Rev 12-17. Let's compare...
    Dan 7: 4th Beast from the sea with 10 horns and a little horn
    Rev 12: Red Dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns, with crowns on the 7 heads.
    Rev 13: Beast from the sea with 10 horns and 7 heads, with crowns on the 10 horns and a 2nd Beast with 2 horns
    Rev 17: Scarlet Beast with 7 heads and 10 horns: 7 hills and 7 kings--6th king "is"

    The vision in Rev 12-17 is noticeably different from the 4th Beast in Dan 7 in the sense that the latter is a "4th Beast," whereas the former, the Scarlet Beast of Rev 17, was the *6th king* in John's day. What binds the two together is the fact both have "10 horns." Since the horns are crowned with the 1st Beast of Rev 13, and the 4th Beast of Dan 7 also has "kingly" horns, the 4th Beast of Dan 7 and the 1st Beast of Rev 13 are the most closely aligned.
    Since you mentioned Rev. 13 its actually FOUR Different visions, but that doesn't mean they are about a different entity, and they are not, because its all about the same entity, the Beast/Anti-Christ/Little Horn and his 10 Kings.

    The Fourth Beast (Rome) is the SIXTH HEAD of the Seven Headed Beast. The Little Horn is the Seventh Head of the Seven Headed Beast. The Seven Headed Beast in Revelation chapters 12, 13 and 17 are the exact same Beast, lets not kid ourselves with trivial trivialities. The Fourth Beast of Rome is a part of this Seven Headed Beast just like Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, and Greece and that makes Six Heads, the Beast/Anti-Christ makes the Seventh Head. All of them have 10 Horns, and all have Seven Heads, Daniel shows FIVE BEASTS........Two were not shown because they were before Nebuchadnezzar's reign, hence he dreamed from his Kingdom forward. God placing in two former Kingdoms into his dream would have just confused the situation and that was not really needed, was it?

    My thought here is that the Red Dragon of Rev 12, with 7 heads and 7 crowns, emphasizes the 7 heads as a succession of Kingdoms. Satan is a timeless being and has existed through all of these Kingdoms. And the 1st Beast of Rev 13, with its 10 horns and 10 crowns, emphasize a coalition of nations supporting the Antichristian Empire. Antichrist is a man who exists only at a particular moment in history, when his coalition takes form.

    There's no question the Revelation derives its material from the 4th Beast of Dan 7. What's in question is the degree to which we can compare them? For example, I can't say for sure that Antichrist is the 7th head of the Beast of Rev 13. The "Little Horn" of Dan 7, the Antichrist, is not said in Dan 7 to be the "7th Head." For all I know the Antichrist, or the "Little Horn," could be the "8th Head" of Rev 17!
    I think the Seven Crowns are being over emphasized by you. Remember, Daniel says 10 came up and three were PLUCKED UP, leaving SEVEN. Some are mentioning the 10 he arises with and some are mentioning the SEVEN that remains intact. To me, that's perfect harmony. Just mentioned in different manners at various times.

    It is very easy to see who the BEAST/LITTLE HORN in Daniel 7 is in Rev. 13. They both speak and have eyes. There is no 8th Head there is an 8th King who was OF THE SEVEN, meaning he is a Demon, with no EARTHLY MATERIAL KINGDOM, but only a Spiritual Kingdom, over the SEVEN Earthly Kingdoms.

    Yea, that's a little confusing to me. How can this Beast, which reigns for 3.5 years, have 10 horns, or kings, that only reign with the Antichrist for "one hour?" Is this a literal "hour?" Perhaps. Perhaps the 10 kings support the Antichrist for 3.5 years, and yet only go into battle with him for a single hour? I don't know. It does seem to support my contention that the Revelation and its "wrath" is largely focused on a single day and hour at the end of the age. Many people falsely equate the entire 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign with a "time of divine wrath." I don't believe that to be the case.
    The "One Hour" is used to signify a short time period. Just like Babylon is destroyed in "One Hour" but we know its really 3 1/2 years there also. I do think the Seals through the Vials is Gods Wrath. God allows evil to befall the Earth, He has protected it from coming for 2000 years, he snatches the Church, then allows this dreaded evil to come upon man-kind. I think this is Gods Wrath. The Seals are the Lambs Wrath, the Trumpets are the Holy Spirits Wrath, the Vials are the Fathers Wrath. All three are Gods Wrath (The Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

    Again, I think your're conflating some of the details of two separate visions, one in Dan 7 and the other in Rev 13-17. The vision in Dan 7 describes the 4th Beast as the entity from which the "Little Horn" comes. So the Antichrist comes from a Pagan Empire, which I believe represents the ancient Roman Empire and the 10 nations evolving out of that Kingdom.
    It doesn't quite equate. The Fourth Beast is no more when Israel is no more. They were a Great Empire, but you can not be a BEAST if there is no Israel. When Israel was REBORN then and only then could you have the END TIME BEAST. Just because he arises in the same land, doesn't mean he has any ties to the Fourth Beast per se.

    But the Revelation depicts a slightly different "Beast" after the Antichrist has already evolved out of it. In Rev 13 the Antichrist has already followed the "7 Heads." They are already 7 Kingdoms by this time, as depicted in Rev 12. And they are already 10 nations, as depicted in Rev 13-17. At this point the Antichrist is so associated with his Empire that they are both referred to as a "Beast." The emphasis appears to be on the *man,* with his empire being his seat of power. In Dan 7 the emphasis was more on the empire, out of which the *man* would come.
    The Anti-Christ/Beast is the Seventh Head. Revelation 12,13 and 17 is the same Seven Headed Beast. Rome is the Sixth Head and the Anti-Christ is the Seventh Head.

    But you haven't answered the question. You said that the Beasts of Dan 7 and Rev 13-17 can only exist in relation to Israel. However, you haven't established anything more than what Daniel and Revelation says, that God's "holy people" are being persecuted by the Antichrist. This could mean Israel or the Church, or even a combination of them. To me, "holy people" signifies Israel in the OT era and the Church in the NT era. The Church does include Israel among its many national members. But in the NT era Israel is no longer considered "holy," with the exception of a small remnant of Israelis who are Christians. So this is talking, I believe, about the Church. When Daniel saw his vision his understanding of the "holy people" was Israelis who had faith in God and who obeyed God. But since Daniel saw this vision of the future representing the NT era then the "holy people" had to represent the Church.
    All Prophecy from the Prophets to Jesus was about Israel. That's just a fact, Jesus even said he was sent to the Lost Sheep of Israel ONLY. There were others mentioned in conjunction, but only with Israel as the main focus. Cyrus BROUGHT ISRAEL back to Jerusalem etc. etc. etc. The Saints are Mentioned in Revelation as Israel the REMNANT is the Church that is left after the Rapture. The Saints AND Martyrs of Jesus are mention in Revelation 17.

    The Church is not here, except for the REMNANT......That's another reason its important to understand the Rapture timing clearly. Buts it is very Clear, the Saints are Israel in Revelation. And the Saints/Israel REPENTS/ATONES/70TH Week, before the Abomination of Desolation happens. God sends Elijah back to turn Israel back to Him. (Malachi 4:5-6) before the Dreadful Day of the Lord. Thus ALL ISRAEL is Saved, not every Jew but Israel as a Nation turns back to God. There is NO BEAST without Israel in the Land, thus the 70th Week is about Israel, not the Church which is in Heaven at that point. Thus JERUSALEM IS CONQUERED AGAIN.

    So no, the 4th Beast, if it is to be viewed as Rome, does not require the existence of Israel, in terms of its being a nation in the Holy Land. Israel has continued to exist only in the form of a scattered people up until the 20th century. This 4th Beast of Dan 7 was supposed to continue up until the end of the age when it is "thrown into the fire." And, in fact, the Roman imperial tradition has continued all through the NT age and up until the present day. That's in essence what "Western Imperialism" represents--the old Roman Imperial tradition. And I expect that fairly soon the Antichrist will emerge and take control of 10 major Western nations.
    To be a BEAST per God it did. Was China a BEAST? Was Genghis Khan a BEAST? Was the British Empire a BEAST? Was Japan or Germany a BEAST? No, because they did not Conquer/Enslave Israel. The Fourth Beast was no more when Israel was no More, hence the Little Horn is the End Time Beast.

  4. #49
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    Re: Which is the Beast?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoomart View Post
    You seem very certain of exactly how the future will unfold, I can't argue with caps, bold fonts, and red highlighting.
    You can't argue with MY FACTS......... I aree

  5. #50
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    Re: Which is the Beast?

    'One World Religion: Former Israeli President Proposes Pope to Head ‘UN for Religions’

    We've been told that Israel would make a fateful agreement with the forces of Antichrist in the time of the end, from what I've learned about the land deals the Vatican has been making with Israel we are coming down the home stretch.

    http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Pol...Vatican-374526

    Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

    You can't make this stuff up, books have been written that make it abundantly clear what's going on in the here and the now.

    http://biblebelievers.com/foxes/findex.htm


    Jude
    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


  6. #51
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    Re: Which is the Beast?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I actually don't think we're far apart on this. Keep in mind, though, that while the Roman Empire in the East, the Byzantine Empire, was being overcome by the Ottoman Turks there was still a Roman tradition continuing in the West, the Holy Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire ended in 1806, but the Hapsburg imperial line continued in Austria after Napoleon until 1918. It does seem that the vestiges of the ancient Roman Empire did dissolve into purely imperial states. And I do think it may mean that the Beast was "wounded," and will be healed when it is reconsolidated into the Beast Empire under the Beast himself--the Antichrist. This will be a relatively short reign of 3.5 years.
    To take this Byzantium concept even further.. Its only western historians who see the Ottomans as a separate empire. In the east this was the continuation of Rome. If California embraces a new religion then gets independence from Washington. Then invades Washington and sets up government there over the USA is that really a new country? The Ottoman leader called himself Caesar and ruled the Eastern Roman Empire.

  7. #52

    Re: Which is the Beast?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    To take this Byzantium concept even further.. Its only western historians who see the Ottomans as a separate empire. In the east this was the continuation of Rome. If California embraces a new religion then gets independence from Washington. Then invades Washington and sets up government there over the USA is that really a new country? The Ottoman leader called himself Caesar and ruled the Eastern Roman Empire.
    Yes, and when the Russians adopted the Orthodox faith from the Greeks, the Russian Orthodox Church, their political leader was called a Czar, which is another word for "Caesar."

  8. #53

    Re: Which is the Beast?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Which means what? It means that they have to be two separate time periods, but in the SAME PLACE. The Fourth Beast is Rome. The Little Horn is cast into hell and he comes up with the 10 Kings as Daniel 7 says and as Rev. 17 says, they receive power "one hour" with the Beast. Why wasn't other Kings/leaders from the other Beasts mentioned as horns? I mean Persia, Greece etc. etc. had other Kings but their successors were not mentioned in like manner. The Four Generals were but in another chapter, yet they had Kings that followed them and no horns. THE ANSWER IS.......This Little Horn and 10 Kings is mentioned because he is the END TIME BEAST.....As is made clear in Daniel chapter 7 verse 11.
    We are in agreement that the 10 Kings and Little Horn are in the endtime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    Picture it like this, Rome is a Beast.......2000 years later, out of this former Beast (Europe/Rome) arises another RULER/KING/BEAST who arises with 10 other Kings, forms a Confederation with them, and they give their powers over unto this King/Beast. So these other Horns arise out of this other Beasts former territory.
    Yes, but my point is that there should be continuity from the legs of the Iron Statue (Dan 2) to the 10 toes, which are the 10 horns. This means that the 4th Beast continues until the endtimes, when the 10 horns arise in the Antichristian confederacy. My theory is that throughout the NT era Rome has continued in a variety of imperial forms, even as the embryonic 10 horns have been developing as nation states.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    Since you mentioned Rev. 13 its actually FOUR Different visions, but that doesn't mean they are about a different entity, and they are not, because its all about the same entity, the Beast/Anti-Christ/Little Horn and his 10 Kings.
    Yes, I think they are all talking about the same thing, including Dan 7. They're all talking about the rise of Antichrist out of the old Roman Empire, with an endtime confederation of 10 states.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    The Fourth Beast (Rome) is the SIXTH HEAD of the Seven Headed Beast. The Little Horn is the Seventh Head of the Seven Headed Beast. The Seven Headed Beast in Revelation chapters 12, 13 and 17 are the exact same Beast, lets not kid ourselves with trivial trivialities. The Fourth Beast of Rome is a part of this Seven Headed Beast just like Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, and Greece and that makes Six Heads, the Beast/Anti-Christ makes the Seventh Head. All of them have 10 Horns, and all have Seven Heads, Daniel shows FIVE BEASTS........Two were not shown because they were before Nebuchadnezzar's reign, hence he dreamed from his Kingdom forward. God placing in two former Kingdoms into his dream would have just confused the situation and that was not really needed, was it?
    I've thought about this possible scenario as well. Maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    I think the Seven Crowns are being over emphasized by you. Remember, Daniel says 10 came up and three were PLUCKED UP, leaving SEVEN. Some are mentioning the 10 he arises with and some are mentioning the SEVEN that remains intact. To me, that's perfect harmony. Just mentioned in different manners at various times.
    I thought about that too, but doesn't really satisfy me. The 7 heads seem to be different from the 10 horns. I think the 7 heads represent historical empires, whereas the 10 horns represent 10 endtime nations. As I said, the 7 heads are crowned during the rule of Satan, who has presided over all of these historical empires. The 10 horns are crowned during the rule of Antichrist, who presides over them in the endtime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    It is very easy to see who the BEAST/LITTLE HORN in Daniel 7 is in Rev. 13. They both speak and have eyes. There is no 8th Head there is an 8th King who was OF THE SEVEN, meaning he is a Demon, with no EARTHLY MATERIAL KINGDOM, but only a Spiritual Kingdom, over the SEVEN Earthly Kingdoms.
    I don't know. I've thought the 7th King is the 7th historical Empire, the rise of a modern Roman Empire. The Antichrist is not an empire, but a man--the 8th King.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    The "One Hour" is used to signify a short time period. Just like Babylon is destroyed in "One Hour" but we know its really 3 1/2 years there also. I do think the Seals through the Vials is Gods Wrath. God allows evil to befall the Earth, He has protected it from coming for 2000 years, he snatches the Church, then allows this dreaded evil to come upon man-kind. I think this is Gods Wrath. The Seals are the Lambs Wrath, the Trumpets are the Holy Spirits Wrath, the Vials are the Fathers Wrath. All three are Gods Wrath (The Father, Son and Holy Spirit).
    I agree that the Trumpets and the Vials represent God's Wrath. I just think they largely are fulfilled at the very end of the 3.5 year period. Of course, I don't believe in the Pretrib Rapture for the simple reason that it is *not* taught in the Scriptures. This scenario is being *read into* these prophecies *without warrant.*

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    It doesn't quite equate. The Fourth Beast is no more when Israel is no more. They were a Great Empire, but you can not be a BEAST if there is no Israel. When Israel was REBORN then and only then could you have the END TIME BEAST. Just because he arises in the same land, doesn't mean he has any ties to the Fourth Beast per se.
    There is no stated requirement that the Beast reign only during the existence of the Israeli nation. Israel has existed over the last two millennia only as a wandering people up until recently. The Beast posed a threat to believers in ancient Israel who were described as "holy people." But "holy people" in the NT period are the Church. This Beast has posed a threat to the Church during the ancient Roman Empire, as can be seen in Rev 18...

    Rev 18.20 “Rejoice over her, you heavens!
    Rejoice, you people of God!
    Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
    For God has judged her
    with the judgment she imposed on you.”



    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    The Anti-Christ/Beast is the Seventh Head. Revelation 12,13 and 17 is the same Seven Headed Beast. Rome is the Sixth Head and the Anti-Christ is the Seventh Head.

    All Prophecy from the Prophets to Jesus was about Israel. That's just a fact, Jesus even said he was sent to the Lost Sheep of Israel ONLY. There were others mentioned in conjunction, but only with Israel as the main focus. Cyrus BROUGHT ISRAEL back to Jerusalem etc. etc. etc. The Saints are Mentioned in Revelation as Israel the REMNANT is the Church that is left after the Rapture. The Saints AND Martyrs of Jesus are mention in Revelation 17.
    I agree. The OT Scriptures largely focused on Israel because they were the only people under God's covenant at that time. That is not to say, however, that nothing in the OT Prophets referred to a future Christian era. Clearly, it did without divulging the mysteries that only Christ would bring. When we get into NT fulfillments of OT prophecy we have to read into "God's People" the Church, because God's People are now defined by Christianity, and not by a strictly Jewish Law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    The Church is not here, except for the REMNANT......That's another reason its important to understand the Rapture timing clearly. Buts it is very Clear, the Saints are Israel in Revelation. And the Saints/Israel REPENTS/ATONES/70TH Week, before the Abomination of Desolation happens. God sends Elijah back to turn Israel back to Him. (Malachi 4:5-6) before the Dreadful Day of the Lord. Thus ALL ISRAEL is Saved, not every Jew but Israel as a Nation turns back to God. There is NO BEAST without Israel in the Land, thus the 70th Week is about Israel, not the Church which is in Heaven at the point. Thus JERUSALEM IS CONQUERED AGAIN.
    Some problems here, and some things I would agree with. Yes, Israel will be restored as a nation at Christ's coming. No, this will have nothing to do with the 70th Week, since that was fulfilled historically in the earthly ministry of Jesus. And no, the AoD has nothing to do with the endtimes because that was the Roman Army in *Jesus' generation.* And finally, no, there is no Pretrib Rapture removing all but a remnant of Jewish believers. That is absurd. No way do a small group of Jews become Christians and exclusively represent Christ in the endtimes. For one, that is too small a period of time to become a mature Christian. Two, God does not discriminate any more from nation to nation. Christians from all nations will be here to the end. Their glory is their endurance--not their "departure."

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    To be a BEAST per God it did. Was China a BEAST? Was Genghis Khan a BEAST? Was the British Empire a BEAST? Was Japan or Germany a BEAST? No, because they did not Conquer/Enslave Israel. The Fourth Beast was no more when Israel was no More, hence the Little Horn is the End Time Beast.
    I think any pagan or nonChristian power that acts in an uncivilized way can be depicted as a "beast." The reason we have a limited number of beasts represented in the Scriptures is because this is a line of pagan empires leading up to the Antichrist. Israel does not have to be a nation in the land of Israel in order for these beasts to exist. Certainly Israel did not exist as a fully functioning nation during the Babylonian Empire!

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    Re: Which is the Beast?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, and when the Russians adopted the Orthodox faith from the Greeks, the Russian Orthodox Church, their political leader was called a Czar, which is another word for "Caesar."
    The most important aspect to continuation of an empire is the peoples and territories over which it rules. Continuation of the capital city also plays a role. So I disagree that Russia can be seen as the continuation of the (Roman) Byzantium Empire.

    I see that you see the continuation of Rome in various forms throughout history. I too believe in this unbroken timeline of Rome. My focus is on the historical capital cities and territory of the two kingdoms. Being Rome/Europe and Istanbul/Turkey. You may just find a clearer end times fulfilment if one sticks to this approach.

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    Re: Which is the Beast?

    Yes, but my point is that there should be continuity from the legs of the Iron Statue (Dan 2) to the 10 toes, which are the 10 horns. This means that the 4th Beast continues until the endtimes, when the 10 horns arise in the Antichristian confederacy. My theory is that throughout the NT era Rome has continued in a variety of imperial forms, even as the embryonic 10 horns have been developing as nation states.
    Why does it have to be continuous? The Beasts are Kingdoms/Nations that Conquered Israel. Although the Statue represented pretty much the same Kingdoms, the Statue represents pretty much all Governments of the World, not BEASTS that Conquered Israel per se. I think Jesus destroying the Statue represents him bringing the Governments of the world under his governance. (1000 year reign) As per the Beasts, they are only Beasts while Israel is a nation. A Beast subjugates Israel. God dispersed them the world over, that was the Ezekiel Prophecy, The Valley of Dry Bones prophecy.

    Yes, I think they are all talking about the same thing, including Dan 7. They're all talking about the rise of Antichrist out of the old Roman Empire, with an endtime confederation of 10 states...............I've thought about this possible scenario as well. Maybe.

    I thought about that too, but doesn't really satisfy me. The 7 heads seem to be different from the 10 horns. I think the 7 heads represent historical empires, whereas the 10 horns represent 10 endtime nations. As I said, the 7 heads are crowned during the rule of Satan, who has presided over all of these historical empires. The 10 horns are crowned during the rule of Antichrist, who presides over them in the endtime.
    The Seven Heads are the ones with Seven Crowns. So I think that just means that these Seven were Kingdoms that Satan tried to use to bring down Gods desired Kingdom, to whom He entrusted his Holy Scriptures to and His promised Son to become the Messiah of this Nation.

    I don't know. I've thought the 7th King is the 7th historical Empire, the rise of a modern Roman Empire. The Antichrist is not an empire, but a man--the 8th King.
    The 8th King is a Demon named Apollyon, I think he is called the Destroyer. Rev. 17 gives us this Mystery, the Angel said in Rev. 17:7 that he was going to explain to us this Mystery.......Then he proceeded to inform us. This is going to be a little long, but it is needed to put this to rest.

    Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

    8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there (THEY ARE ALSO) are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space

    11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    In verse 8 we see that "BEAST" comes out of the bottomless pit (Demon Spirit) and is of THE SEVEN (Demon who was around for the first Six Beasts, then went to the Bottomless pit) Then the Angel Explains the Seven Headed Beast in verse 9.

    And the Angel says here is the mind that has wisdom, the Seven Heads are Seven Mountains who are ALSO SEVEN KINGS!! God Reduced the Kingdoms to Kings here ON PURPOSE.................Its like reducing 10/20 to 5/10 then to 1/2. God reduced the Kingdoms to Kings so as not to confuse us. The other Six Beasts were Kingdoms, the Last Beast is A MAN. When he comes he is in power but a SHORT TIME....7 years maybe a little more, but he is the Beast for only 42 Months. In verse 11 its speaking of the Demon again.

    The Beast that was, and is not, yet is, he is the 8th King.......Whoooaa.......who was the Beast that was/is not/yet is in verse 8? Hes the Demon from the Bottomless pit, he was OF THE SEVEN. That is why he is called a Beast, his job Description was this "DESTROY ISRAEL". Thus the Seven Kingdoms who Conquered, Enslaved or Ruled Israel was no doubt directed by THIS DEMON (He was OF THE SEVEN). He was........The Five had fallen, the one WAS........But since Israel had fallen, it seems he was about to be locked into the Bottomless pit until the endtimes, and even though he wasn't dead (of course) he was not a BEAST OVER ISRAEL because there was no Israel. But he YET LIVED and would become this Beast again. (Was/IS NOT/yet is)

    Its convoluted. Lets look at it in simpler terms. I am General Big Daddy Bombastic Bill. We have a 100 year War with Japan. I place you as my designated commander over Tokyo in 1945, then another guy in 1947, one in 50, another in 54, likewise in 1956 another guy and finally in 1960 I place a man named Fred G. Sanford over Tokyo. That is SIX COMMANDERS who were over Tokyo. Then all of the sudden Everybody in /Japan/Tokyo leaves for 50 years, there is nothing there, so I as a General go home and command all my men and Commanders to finally go home. Then in 2010 all the Japanese people move back home, we are ordered back to the Island Country again, this time I place my SEVENTH COMMANDER over Tokyo,...........I was over ALL SEVEN, even though I left for a LONG WHILE but returned when the people Returned.

    There was SEVEN COMMANDERS and I was the 8th Commander because I Commanded the SEVEN Commanders.

    I agree that the Trumpets and the Vials represent God's Wrath. I just think they largely are fulfilled at the very end of the 3.5 year period. Of course, I don't believe in the Pretrib Rapture for the simple reason that it is *not* taught in the Scriptures. This scenario is being *read into* these prophecies *without warrant.*
    Malachi 4:5-6 tells us Israel REPENTS before the Day of the Lord, and since the Anti-Christ chases them into the Wilderness for 1260 Days and since GOD PROTECTS THEM for 1260 Days, that tells us that the Wrath is for 1260 Days or 3 1/2 years. God is not going to protect Israel until they Repent. In Zechariah we see they Repent at the Zechariah 12:10 mark. They have the FOUNTAIN (Jesus Blood) opened unto them in 13:1 and then Jesus comes back in Zechariah 14. Its a TIMELINE.

    There is no stated requirement that the Beast reign only during the existence of the Israeli nation. Israel has existed over the last two millennia only as a wandering people up until recently. The Beast posed a threat to believers in ancient Israel who were described as "holy people." But "holy people" in the NT period are the Church. This Beast has posed a threat to the Church during the ancient Roman Empire, as can be seen in Rev 18...
    Well if a BEAST is one that Conquers, Enslaves or Rules Israel and there is no Israel, then there is no Beast. If they were all in ONE PLACE that would be different. But God said they were as DEAD MEN'S BONES, thus they were no more, until God Breathed life back into them. The Church will never be Israel. The Church will be in Heaven.

    Some problems here, and some things I would agree with. Yes, Israel will be restored as a nation at Christ's coming. No, this will have nothing to do with the 70th Week, since that was fulfilled historically in the earthly ministry of Jesus. And no, the AoD has nothing to do with the endtimes because that was the Roman Army in *Jesus' generation.* And finally, no, there is no Pretrib Rapture removing all but a remnant of Jewish believers. That is absurd. No way do a small group of Jews become Christians and exclusively represent Christ in the endtimes. For one, that is too small a period of time to become a mature Christian. Two, God does not discriminate any more from nation to nation. Christians from all nations will be here to the end. Their glory is their endurance--not their "departure."
    70th Week cant pass until Israel Repents. Church will be in Heaven for 7 Years marrying the Lamb.
    Last edited by Revelation Man; Apr 22nd 2017 at 06:49 PM.

  11. #56

    Re: Which is the Beast?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The most important aspect to continuation of an empire is the peoples and territories over which it rules. Continuation of the capital city also plays a role. So I disagree that Russia can be seen as the continuation of the (Roman) Byzantium Empire.

    I see that you see the continuation of Rome in various forms throughout history. I too believe in this unbroken timeline of Rome. My focus is on the historical capital cities and territory of the two kingdoms. Being Rome/Europe and Istanbul/Turkey. You may just find a clearer end times fulfilment if one sticks to this approach.
    I don't entirely disagree with you. The territory of the Roman Empire encompassed Eastern and Western sections, with the original capital, Rome, being in the West. So my focus on the Beast Empire tends to favor the Western Roman Empire.

    On the other hand, the image in Nebuchadnezzar's Dream had 2 iron legs with 2 feet. These 2 legs correspond with the 2 sections of the old Roman Empire, East and West. If so, then the 2 feet must continue to represent the sections of the old Roman Empire, East and West. Since the Greek section has collapsed to Islam, and since Russia has taken up the "Orthodox" mantle, I do view Russia and its "Czar" (Caesar) as a continuation of the Roman imperial tradition.

    In fact, Russia has also been designated as an "empire." Furthermore, Moscow (or Muscovy) has claimed to be the "3rd Rome." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Rome

    The problem with denying a continuation of Rome in history is the fact that both the Western Empire and the Eastern Empire fell. Rome fell in 476 AD, and Constantinople fell in 1453 AD. So how can it be said that the "legs of iron" led up to the "two feet?" It can only be said if we follow the *imperial tradition,* rather than the empire itself.

    You might compare this to Israel during her Assyrian and Babylonian captivities. It can be said that the Jewish nation continued through her religious tradition and religious practices, even while she was in captivity. But her nation as a state had ceased to exist during the captivity.

    It is the same with this Roman tradition. It has continued even while the two branches fell. So the question is, How did the tradition of these two branches continue even after their imperial seat fell? Well, we only have history to look back upon and to understand how they continued. The Eastern Empire, which continued to exist a thousand years after the fall of Rome, fell in 1453 to the Ottoman Turks. Either the Turks usurped the Roman imperial tradition, or the tradition of imperial Rome passed on to Russia. I think Russia better fits this situation. So no, I don't think the territorial equation necessarily fits.

    In the West, following the fall of Rome in 476 AD, the imperial tradition continued only via the Roman Church. Eventually that Church crowned Charlemagne a new kind of emperor, reviving the Roman imperial tradition. That was in 800 AD. So there are grounds for seeing the church as the perpetuator of the Roman tradition. Just as the "Restrainer" of 2 Thes 2 holds back the appearance of Antichrist, so the Church perpetuated the imperial system as an obstacle to the rise of Antichrist.

    In sum, I think the two branches of the old Roman Empire have been perpetuated by the Church, Catholic and Orthodox. The Catholic Church still exists, as does the Orthodox Church. If we don't go strictly by territory we may find Russia is a better fit for the Eastern Roman tradition. Not only so, but if you look at Europe in terms of racial stock you will see, roughly, that the Western Branch of the old Empire is Germanic, whereas the Eastern Branch is Slavic--Russia fits the Slavic mold!

    These two branches must, I think, continue up until the "two feet" appear with "ten toes." If you will look back over the last 2000 years, as far back as the political collapse of the original Roman branches, you might surmise that the evolution towards "feet" began, at least in embryonic form?

    If so, who might we see, among nations, that fit in the Roman imperial mold? It is easy to see that Italy, France, Germany, Spain, Austria, and Great Britain could be considered "imperial" in stature. But in the East we have Russia as the giant who has determined what eastern states were prominent in the imperial tradition. We might mention Poland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, among others. Russia also holds sway over former members of the USSR, including the Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. I won't even begin to claim to know precisely how this will all pan out!

  12. #57

    Re: Which is the Beast?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Why does it have to be continuous? The Beasts are Kingdoms/Nations that Conquered Israel. Although the Statue represented pretty much the same Kingdoms, the Statue represents pretty much all Governments of the World, not BEASTS that Conquered Israel per se. I think Jesus destroying the Statue represents him bringing the Governments of the world under his governance. (1000 year reign) As per the Beasts, they are only Beasts while Israel is a nation. A Beast subjugates Israel. God dispersed them the world over, that was the Ezekiel Prophecy, The Valley of Dry Bones prophecy.
    Joseph received more than a single dream about his future reign in Egypt. One was given using agricultural symbolism. The other dream was about the heavens, or astronomy. The fact the symbolism differed did not indicate different meanings. Rather, it was confirmation of the same truth with the objectivity provided by two different dreams.

    Daniel also received confirmation of the same truths from two different sources, using different symbolism. He had Nebuchadnezzar's Dream of the great statue. And he had his own dream of the wild beasts. The different symbolism did not mean one meant one thing and the other dream meant another thing. They basically told the same story: 4 powers evolving into a set of 10. Gold, silver, bronze, and iron with feet and toes iron mixed with clay. 4 beasts with 10 horns. In both dreams the images were said to represent kings or kingdoms, and the end was God's Kingdom.

    We know the kingdoms were Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome because they are largely identified as such. There is no reason to think the 4 Beasts were different.

    These beasts and the great image were not given merely in connection with Israel. More, they were given in connection with God's Holy People and in connection with the coming Kingdom of God. They are given as such because Christ came during the reign of the 4th Kingdom, Rome. He is the one who brought the Kingdom near to men, and who provided the legal means for men to enter into the Kingdom even before it comes. And I do think that Rome continues as the paramount secular power through its offspring, Western Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    The Seven Heads are the ones with Seven Crowns. So I think that just means that these Seven were Kingdoms that Satan tried to use to bring down Gods desired Kingdom, to whom He entrusted his Holy Scriptures to and His promised Son to become the Messiah of this Nation.

    The 8th King is a Demon named Apollyon, I think he is called the Destroyer. Rev. 17 gives us this Mystery, the Angel said in Rev. 17:7 that he was going to explain to us this Mystery.......Then he proceeded to inform us. This is going to be a little long, but it is needed to put this to rest.

    Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

    8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there (THEY ARE ALSO) are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space

    11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    In verse 8 we see that "BEAST" comes out of the bottomless pit (Demon Spirit) and is of THE SEVEN (Demon who was around for the first Six Beasts, then went to the Bottomless pit) Then the Angel Explains the Seven Headed Beast in verse 9.

    And the Angel says here is the mind that has wisdom, the Seven Heads are Seven Mountains who are ALSO SEVEN KINGS!! God Reduced the Kingdoms to Kings here ON PURPOSE.................Its like reducing 10/20 to 5/10 then to 1/2. God reduced the Kingdoms to Kings so as not to confuse us. The other Six Beasts were Kingdoms, the Last Beast is A MAN. When he comes he is in power but a SHORT TIME....7 years maybe a little more, but he is the Beast for only 42 Months. In verse 11 its speaking of the Demon again.

    The Beast that was, and is not, yet is, he is the 8th King.......Whoooaa.......who was the Beast that was/is not/yet is in verse 8? Hes the Demon from the Bottomless pit, he was OF THE SEVEN. That is why he is called a Beast, his job Description was this "DESTROY ISRAEL". Thus the Seven Kingdoms who Conquered, Enslaved or Ruled Israel was no doubt directed by THIS DEMON (He was OF THE SEVEN). He was........The Five had fallen, the one WAS........But since Israel had fallen, it seems he was about to be locked into the Bottomless pit until the endtimes, and even though he wasn't dead (of course) he was not a BEAST OVER ISRAEL because there was no Israel. But he YET LIVED and would become this Beast again.

    Its convoluted. Lets look at it in simpler terms. I am General Big Daddy Bombastic Bill. We have a 100 year War with Japan. I place you as my designated commander over Tokyo in 1945, then another guy in 1947, one in 50, another in 54, likewise in 1956 another guy and finally in 1960 I place a man named Fred G. Sanford over Tokyo. That is SIX COMMANDERS who were over Tokyo. Then all of the sudden Everybody in /Japan/Tokyo leaves for 50 years, there is nothing there, so I as a General go home and command all my men and Commanders to finally go home. Then in 2010 all the Japanese people move back home, we are ordered back to the Island Country again, this time I place my SEVENTH COMMANDER over Tokyo,...........I was over ALL SEVEN, even though I left for a LONG WHILE but returned when the people Returned.

    There was SEVEN COMMANDERS and I was the 8th Commander because I Commanded the SEVEN Commanders.
    Well, I suppose that's as good a theory as any. My own view is that the Antichrist is the 8th king, and also part of the 7 kings, because the 7 kings are actually kingdoms, and he is simply an individual king. In other words, he joins in with the succession of 7 kingdoms, having one himself. And yet he is identified separately as a special leader among all 7 kingdoms. Thus, he is the "8th king," and yet "part of the 7."

    I don't see the Beast as necessarily the same as Apollyon, who may very well be a king demon over a horde of demons. The Beast comes up out of the Abyss not because he is a released demon, but rather, because he's a restoration of the old Roman Empire, which had died. This is, I think, more or less symbolism, and not the release of demons in prison. In other words, the "locusts" released from the Abyss may very well be demons. But the Beast himself is a resurrection of a previously retired empire. For me, the Abyss is a place not just for imprisoning demons, but also the source for originating new realities, much as the "deep" was in Genesis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    Malachi 4:5-6 tells us Israel REPENTS before the Day of the Lord, and since the Anti-Christ chases them into the Wilderness for 1260 Days and since GOD PROTECTS THEM for 1260 Days, that tells us that the Wrath is for 1260 Days or 3 1/2 years. God is not going to protect Israel until they Repent. In Zechariah we see they Repent at the Zechariah 12:10 mark. They have the FOUNTAIN (Jesus Blood) opened unto them in 13:1 and then Jesus comes back in Zechariah 14. Its a TIMELINE.
    It may also be that your conflating two things that don't fit together that way. Zech 13-14 do indeed speak of Israel's salvation. But I think that happens at the revelation of Christ at his coming. Rev 12 speaks of a woman protected in the wilderness, which may very well speak of Israel. But if anything it may speak of Israel still in a state of unbelief, in Diaspora. God may keep her afloat until her national salvation at Christ's coming. This means that only a remnant of Israel continues to be brought to Christ in this age. It is only in the next age that the Israeli nation becomes Christian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    Well if a BEAST is one that Conquers, Enslaves or Rules Israel and there is no Israel, then there is no Beast. If they were all in ONE PLACE that would be different. But God said they were as DEAD MEN'S BONES, thus they were no more, until God Breathed life back into them. The Church will never be Israel. The Church will be in Heaven.
    You are defining the beasts as animals that enslave Israel. That is not a given. That may have happened, but that is not how they are defined. They are 4 kingdoms that precede the coming of God's Kingdom. That is how they are defined. They are secular powers because they stand in distinction with the Holy People. The assumption that Israel has to exist in order for these beasts to exist is wrong because Israel ceased to exist after 70 AD, and yet Rome, the 4th beast, continued to exist all the way up until 476 AD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    70th Week cant pass until Israel Repents. Church will be in Heaven for 7 Years marrying the Lamb.
    70th Week was fulfilled after 490 years, dating from the Decree of Artaxerxes. That means the 70th Week was completed in the earthly ministry of Jesus. That's when the Kingdom of God drew near. But it will only come when the 10 horns arise out of the 4th Beast, the Roman tradition. At least, that's my position for now, R-Man!

  13. #58
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    Re: Which is the Beast?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't entirely disagree with you. The territory of the Roman Empire encompassed Eastern and Western sections, with the original capital, Rome, being in the West. So my focus on the Beast Empire tends to favor the Western Roman Empire.

    On the other hand, the image in Nebuchadnezzar's Dream had 2 iron legs with 2 feet. These 2 legs correspond with the 2 sections of the old Roman Empire, East and West. If so, then the 2 feet must continue to represent the sections of the old Roman Empire, East and West. Since the Greek section has collapsed to Islam, and since Russia has taken up the "Orthodox" mantle, I do view Russia and its "Czar" (Caesar) as a continuation of the Roman imperial tradition.

    In fact, Russia has also been designated as an "empire." Furthermore, Moscow (or Muscovy) has claimed to be the "3rd Rome." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Rome

    The problem with denying a continuation of Rome in history is the fact that both the Western Empire and the Eastern Empire fell. Rome fell in 476 AD, and Constantinople fell in 1453 AD. So how can it be said that the "legs of iron" led up to the "two feet?" It can only be said if we follow the *imperial tradition,* rather than the empire itself.

    You might compare this to Israel during her Assyrian and Babylonian captivities. It can be said that the Jewish nation continued through her religious tradition and religious practices, even while she was in captivity. But her nation as a state had ceased to exist during the captivity.

    It is the same with this Roman tradition. It has continued even while the two branches fell. So the question is, How did the tradition of these two branches continue even after their imperial seat fell? Well, we only have history to look back upon and to understand how they continued. The Eastern Empire, which continued to exist a thousand years after the fall of Rome, fell in 1453 to the Ottoman Turks. Either the Turks usurped the Roman imperial tradition, or the tradition of imperial Rome passed on to Russia. I think Russia better fits this situation. So no, I don't think the territorial equation necessarily fits.

    In the West, following the fall of Rome in 476 AD, the imperial tradition continued only via the Roman Church. Eventually that Church crowned Constantine a new kind of emperor, reviving the Roman imperial tradition. That was in 800 AD. So there are grounds for seeing the church as the perpetuator of the Roman tradition. Just as the "Restrainer" of 2 Thes 2 holds back the appearance of Antichrist, so the Church perpetuated the imperial system as an obstacle to the rise of Antichrist.

    In sum, I think the two branches of the old Roman Empire have been perpetuated by the Church, Catholic and Orthodox. The Catholic Church still exists, as does the Orthodox Church. If we don't go strictly by territory we may find Russia is a better fit for the Eastern Roman tradition. Not only so, but if you look at Europe in terms of racial stock you will see, roughly, that the Western Branch of the old Empire is Germanic, whereas the Eastern Branch is Slavic--Russia fits the Slavic mold!

    These two branches must, I think, continue up until the "two feet" appear with "ten toes." If you will look back over the last 2000 years, as far back as the political collapse of the original Roman branches, you might surmise that the evolution towards "feet" began, at least in embryonic form?

    If so, who might we see, among nations, that fit in the Roman imperial mold? It is easy to see that Italy, France, Germany, Spain, Austria, and Great Britain could be considered "imperial" in stature. But in the East we have Russia as the giant who has determined what eastern states were prominent in the imperial tradition. We might mention Poland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, among others. Russia also holds sway over former members of the USSR, including the Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. I won't even begin to claim to know precisely how this will all pan out!
    I can occasionally be a tenacious debater your views are often well thought out but I just want to leave you with a couple of thoughts.

    Firstly Rome was originally a centralised power and so this should reflect in the statue, the statue being of Babylonian type, legs together feet apart. It's at the feet not the legs that split Rome is reflected (just a thought, this isn't central to our discussion)

    Secondly there was immediate succession in both the fall of Rome and the fall of Istanbul (prev. Constantinople). In Rome the bishop of Rome immediately took reign preventing the Vandals from destroying Rome. His religious manipulation over Europe started immediately as Imperial Rome fell, even to the extent of eventually taking the titles of Emperor. In Istanbul the Ottomans were from within the Byzantium region, and ruled from Istanbul, used the infrastructure of Istanbul, and kept the title if Caesar. For some reason western historians deny the continuation of the Eastern Empire for no logical reason. Empires often have coups and rebellions, if it's people from within an empire taking over an empire them it is a continuation. Thus the Ottomans have a stronger case for the continuation of Rome than the Russians. Im aware Im repeating myself here, i just wanted to leave you with that thought.

    So both Romes have an unbroken timeline until today. Rome had a little setback in 1798. istanbul has been weakened under Western influence for 100 years. But they are both the cities to watch. Only us modern Christians fail to see the historical power of Istanbul because we have lived our entire lives during the 100 year dormancy of Eastern Rome, yet it has never ceased. Just been a little weak since WW1.

  14. #59

    Re: Which is the Beast?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I can occasionally be a tenacious debater your views are often well thought out but I just want to leave you with a couple of thoughts.

    Firstly Rome was originally a centralised power and so this should reflect in the statue, the statue being of Babylonian type, legs together feet apart. It's at the feet not the legs that split Rome is reflected (just a thought, this isn't central to our discussion)

    Secondly there was immediate succession in both the fall of Rome and the fall of Istanbul (prev. Constantinople). In Rome the bishop of Rome immediately took reign preventing the Vandals from destroying Rome. His religious manipulation over Europe started immediately as Imperial Rome fell, even to the extent of eventually taking the titles of Emperor. In Istanbul the Ottomans were from within the Byzantium region, and ruled from Istanbul, used the infrastructure of Istanbul, and kept the title if Caesar. For some reason western historians deny the continuation of the Eastern Empire for no logical reason. Empires often have coups and rebellions, if it's people from within an empire taking over an empire them it is a continuation. Thus the Ottomans have a stronger case for the continuation of Rome than the Russians. Im aware Im repeating myself here, i just wanted to leave you with that thought.

    So both Romes have an unbroken timeline until today. Rome had a little setback in 1798. istanbul has been weakened under Western influence for 100 years. But they are both the cities to watch. Only us modern Christians fail to see the historical power of Istanbul because we have lived our entire lives during the 100 year dormancy of Eastern Rome, yet it has never ceased. Just been a little weak since WW1.
    Yes, that's a legitimate consideration. By the way, I made a typo with respect to Charlemagne, giving the name "Constantine" instead.

    All of your points are interesting. So are mine. I have a little problem with connecting any Islamic power to the tradition of Imperial Rome. Otherwise, your points are well taken.

    At what point the "legs" of Nebuchadnezzar's statue become divided is not of any concern with me. They are separate from the start. The "feet" appear to be the end of a long process beginning with the "head" of the image. So I don't think the "feet" immediately appeared in the ancient empires. The "toes" seem to equate with the 10 horns of Dan 7, which appear at the end times, along with the appearance of Antichrist. But much of this remains a matter of speculation to me. Thanks again for your thoughts.

    The issue may be decided for both of us in the near future. As you know Turkey is on the side of NATO, and Russia is on the opposite side. Russia has been encroaching on their neighbors and annexed the Crimea from the Ukraine. This puts Russia on Turkey's doorstep!

    How Russia treats Moslems in the Middle East may determine who becomes the actual heir of Constantinople, Russia or Turkey? Russia at the present seems to be favoring the Shiite brand of Islam over the Sunnis, which would put her at odds with Turkey. So perhaps we should both just keep watching?

  15. #60
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    Re: Which is the Beast?

    27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
    Context.....Dreams that are different can mean the same thing BUT DON'T HAVE TO !! It is easy to see that Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are different. Firstly we don't see the Statue mentioned in Revelation, but we see the Beasts mentioned. That is because Jesus Destroying BABYLON in Rev. 16:9 is the same as the Rock destroying the Statue. We should all understand that without much problem. The Beasts are Nations that Conquered Israel thus they are seen as BEASTS. The Statue us seen as levels of Governance, Gold, Silver, Brass, Iron and Iron mixed with Clay. The last showing it to have a weak base (Jesus should be our Foundation, he is a ROCK). In other words I think the different levels in precious metals is showing us world Governance and the BEASTS are showing us something entirely different, the harm these nations bring upon Israel. (BEASTS).

    Daniel also received confirmation of the same truths from two different sources, using different symbolism. He had Nebuchadnezzar's Dream of the great statue. And he had his own dream of the wild beasts. The different symbolism did not mean one meant one thing and the other dream meant another thing. They basically told the same story: 4 powers evolving into a set of 10. Gold, silver, bronze, and iron with feet and toes iron mixed with clay. 4 beasts with 10 horns. In both dreams the images were said to represent kings or kingdoms, and the end was God's Kingdom.
    Dreams OF GOD....Same source.

    We know the kingdoms were Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome because they are largely identified as such. There is no reason to think the 4 Beasts were different.

    These beasts and the great image were not given merely in connection with Israel. More, they were given in connection with God's Holy People and in connection with the coming Kingdom of God. They are given as such because Christ came during the reign of the 4th Kingdom, Rome. He is the one who brought the Kingdom near to men, and who provided the legal means for men to enter into the Kingdom even before it comes. And I do think that Rome continues as the paramount secular power through its offspring, Western Europe.
    True, they are the same FIVE.....Counting the Iron & Clay = The Little Horn and 10 other Horns.

    That second part proves all the more that the Image and Beasts are different. The Beasts conquer Israel, all of them. But as per the statue at the very END what happens to it? Jesus Smashes it into and the Saints (All of Gods Elect) are GIVEN THE KINGDOM. This happens in Daniel 2 and in Revelation. So the Statue is basically what they are calling BABYLON (Head of Gold) in Revelation. We (Church) come back from Heaven with Jesus and take the Kingdom. That is the Statue being SMASHED. Israel is the Nation that when Conquering he turns into a BEAST.........See he breaks his agreement/covenant and Conquers Israel in the Middle of the Week. The he is called THE BEAST for 42 Months !!

    Well, I suppose that's as good a theory as any. My own view is that the Antichrist is the 8th king, and also part of the 7 kings, because the 7 kings are actually kingdoms, and he is simply an individual king. In other words, he joins in with the succession of 7 kingdoms, having one himself. And yet he is identified separately as a special leader among all 7 kingdoms. Thus, he is the "8th king," and yet "part of the 7."

    I don't see the Beast as necessarily the same as Apollyon, who may very well be a king demon over a horde of demons. The Beast comes up out of the Abyss not because he is a released demon, but rather, because he's a restoration of the old Roman Empire, which had died. This is, I think, more or less symbolism, and not the release of demons in prison. In other words, the "locusts" released from the Abyss may very well be demons. But the Beast himself is a resurrection of a previously retired empire. For me, the Abyss is a place not just for imprisoning demons, but also the source for originating new realities, much as the "deep" was in Genesis.
    I used to think that Satan indwelled the Anti-Christ when he was cast to earth and that made hi the Beast. But the Angel specifically says the Demon that came up from the bottomless pit is the 8th King. No man can come up from the pit so we have to X OUT the Anti-Christ and Satan was in Heaven so we have to X OUT Satan so it can only be Apollyon. Something else in my mind, that I have not committed to is this....Apollyon possesses someone and that someone become the "FALSE PROPHET" who does great miracles like making fire come down from the heavens. Also notice, the False Prophet has the same power as the Beast.

    The Beast spoke of as the 8th King is a Demon spirit, who was over the other Six Beasts thus he is released when the Seventh is coming forth, thus he is of the SEVEN.

    It may also be that your conflating two things that don't fit together that way. Zech 13-14 do indeed speak of Israel's salvation. But I think that happens at the revelation of Christ at his coming. Rev 12 speaks of a woman protected in the wilderness, which may very well speak of Israel. But if anything it may speak of Israel still in a state of unbelief, in Diaspora. God may keep her afloat until her national salvation at Christ's coming. This means that only a remnant of Israel continues to be brought to Christ in this age. It is only in the next age that the Israeli nation becomes Christian.
    Well we see that Zachariah 12:10 comes before Zachariah 14 and 12:10 comes when the world is makng a fuss about the BURDENSOME STONE. So Israel Repents first. As I stated, Malachi 4:5-6 says that God says he will send Elijah before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord to turn Israel back to God (So they repent before the AoD). The 70th Week is designed to get Israel to Repent before Jesus returns. How do you think Israel knows where to flee to? After they accept Jesus, they understand his holy prophecy means that as soon as they see the AoD they need to FLEE to the Wilderness. Remember Paul quoted Isaiah and said that ALL ISRAEL will be saved, meaning Israel as a Nation Repents. Not that all Jews are Saved.

    I don't just conflate things without giving deep thought. Everything I am seeing conjoins together. Why does God give us the 1260, 42 Months, Time, times and 1/2 time? Well of course there is a reason. This is when the Anti-Christ conquers Israel (1st Seal) and becomes the Beast. But this also tells us when the Two-witnesses show up. We know they are set-up on a 1260 day schedule also. We also know they are killed and Ascend at the 2nd Woe or just before the 3rd Woe which is all Seven Vials. So what is God telling us? IF WE LISTEN? That the Tow-Witnesses time-line and the Anti-Christs time-line as the BEAST (42 Months/1260 Days) can not and does not match up with the Two-witnesses timeline. The Beast is killed at the final Vial. This means that the Two-witnesses have to show up before the Anti-Christ becomes the BEAST when he Conquers Israel. So this means that Elijah (just like Malachi 4:5-6 says) come to turn Israel back to God before the AoD happens. Thus the Anti-Christ can profane that which has been made whole. Everything fits to Israel repenting before the Day of the Lord. They are protected.....the Two-Witnesses show up before the Anti-Christ conquers Israel.... The Scriptures says Elijah turns Israel back to God before the Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath that begins at the 3 1/2 year Mark).....In Zechariah 12:10 we see Israel REPENTS before Jesus sets foot on the Mt. of Olives. IT ALL FITS LIKE A GLOVE........I didn't just come up with this, much study went into this.

    You are defining the beasts as animals that enslave Israel. That is not a given. That may have happened, but that is not how they are defined. They are 4 kingdoms that precede the coming of God's Kingdom. That is how they are defined. They are secular powers because they stand in distinction with the Holy People. The assumption that Israel has to exist in order for these beasts to exist is wrong because Israel ceased to exist after 70 AD, and yet Rome, the 4th beast, continued to exist all the way up until 476 AD.
    Sure it is, the Holy Word is all about Israel. They are Beasts because they Conquered Israel. The Holy Word is all about Israel. We don't see any country as a BEAST who have not conquered or enslaved Israel. Not the USA/CHINA/USSR/ etc. etc. Just because Rome existed as a power, doesn't mean they had to continue being a BEAST as God sees them. The USA is not a BEAST the Ottoman Empire was never a Beast nor was the British Empire.

    70th Week was fulfilled after 490 years, dating from the Decree of Artaxerxes. That means the 70th Week was completed in the earthly ministry of Jesus. That's when the Kingdom of God drew near. But it will only come when the 10 horns arise out of the 4th Beast, the Roman tradition. At least, that's my position for now, R-Man!
    That's not what the Holy Word says, it says Jesus was CUT-OFF after 69 Weeks.

    HERE.............One free pass to an adding class in your area............... 70 - 1 = 69.

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