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Thread: The restrainer and the falling away

  1. #121

    Re: The restrainer and the falling away

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You're assuming I have "taken" and "left" wrong. It has nothing to do with the Rapture of the Church. In fact, different words for "taken" are applied by Jesus to those who are taken in judgment. This has to do with the generation in Jesus' day who were taken away into captivity by the Romans. Some were fortunately left.
    I assume you mean the "taken" and "left" passages... while I agree with you (as you may recall) that these are not referring to the time of our Rapture, I cannot agree with you that they refer to the time of the events surrounding 70ad. Because the passages refer to "the Son of man cometh / the coming of the Son of man" (always referring to His 2nd Coming to the earth), and Matt25:31-34 says, "WHEN the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory..." (see also Matt19:28, then Lk22:30,16,18, then Matt26:29).

    Also note Matt24:51's "weeping and gnashing of teeth" which He'd said in Matt13:30,39,40,41-42,49-50 (about the same "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" subject, which was their later question in Matt24:3 and His answer followed), when the angels will "reap" (do you think they did that back then in 70ad? and that that is not a future reference? the wheat and the tares were separated back then, and not future?)



    The server can't be THAT "busy," can it?

    [posting this before it gets cut off again]


    Those "taken" are taken away in judgment (just as in Noah's day); those "left" are left to enter the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom time period (upon His "return" to the earth FOR the MK time period there)... just as in Noah's day. [compare Gen9:1 with Dan2:35 active "fill/filled"]

  2. #122

    Re: The restrainer and the falling away

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Wrong....the first Seven English Translations said Depart or Departure. I don't choose to blindly follow the KJV no matter what, even though it is my preferred bible. The Original Hebrew and Greek is VERY, VERY, VERY Important.

    This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

    They were as follows:

    1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

    2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

    3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

    4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

    5. The Great Bible (1540)

    6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

    7. The Geneva Bible (1608)


    Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

    All the evidence says it is DEPARTURE and the Church is what the subject is via the Gathering together unto Christ before the Day of the Lord comes. So the Church Departs. We can bury our heads and play pretend all we want to, and continue to say its about the Faith when 1. The Faith is never the subject in the passage and 2. The Departure is referring to the Gathering unto Christ Jesus. These Epistles were vague, because they referred to things that had been spoken between them in private and in other letters/epistles, so in many cases we have to fill in the blanks. I am sure of Paul thought these would become Scriptures, he would have been more detailed in things he spoke of, but the Thessalonians NO DOUBT knew Paul was referring to the Church Departing, like he had told them before.
    You're not accurate in your assessment. Although the Gathering of the Church is in view, the word "departure" does not apply to the Church, but rather, to the Revelation of Antichrist. The object is the Antichrist, and not the Church. Paul said that Jesus could not yet have come for the Church because the Revelation of Antichrist had to precede it. Said another way, the Day of the Lord, ie the coming of Christ for the Church, could not have happened yet because the revelation of Antichrist had to precede it.

    You are ignoring the main object of Paul's message, which is that Antichrist must come first. This is important because we are to be aware that deceptions precede our ultimate salvation. Before we arrive at the Kingdom we have to pass through trials and temptations.

    This is precisely what Jesus had said to his disciples. When asked about *when* he would come he emphasized first the need to deal with impostors, deceptions, and misdirections. This then is what Paul is saying, that before you can think Christ is coming you must be prepared to deal with the counterfeits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    Nope, they are talking about the Rapture to meet Christ in the air. Its just you thinking he meets us in the Air then comes down. All because for some reason you can't understand the difference between the Rapture and Second Coming. Matthew 24:27-31 is the Second Coming. Matthew 24:32-44 is the Rapture. Paul said I tell you a Mystery.
    No, I understand that you separate the Rapture of the Church from the 2nd Coming when there is absolutely no explicit doctrine describing this in the entire Bible! My point, which you avoided, is that these passages express the coming of Christ's Kingdom to earth--not just Christ's coming itself. And if Christ's Kingdom is coming to earth, then Christ himself must come to earth.

    1 Cor 15.24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

    This is talking about the coming of Christ's Kingdom to earth--just as it is described in Dan 7.

    Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

    Your other "Rapture" passage in 1 Thes 4 says the same thing and is based on the same passage in Dan 7, along with its associated passage in Dan 12...

    1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

    This is based on the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven in Dan 7. The resurrection comes from Dan 12, which is also tied in with Dan 7 via the 3.5 years. And so, Paul is drawing his theology from Dan 7 and the idea that Christ is coming to *earth* in order to bring his Kingdom to earth! Christ is not coming to remain in heaven! That's absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    I am telling the the plain truth, that a large majority of Christendom CAN SEE.......Remember that, most people see what I see. You can debate it, argue it etc. etc. When the time comes, you will see, Jesus is calling us home for Seven Years, he went to his Fathers House to build up the Bridal Chambers, he will return again when he gets finished, and the Father sends him, just like the Jewish Wedding Pattern has always been done, he comes and SHOUTS just like the Groom does. Its right in front of your eyes, Jesus taught us in parables for a reason. The Bride and Bridegroom stayed in the Wedding Chambers for 7 Days = 7 Prophetic YEARS !! You can't really just take things for granted, we have to search them out, the world can't see them for a reason.
    Have you considered the possibility that *you* are getting most of your input from Pretribbers? You may think the whole world is Pretrib, but it isn't. That's what Pretribbers may want you to think. The truth is, Pretrib is a relatively recent innovation in Christian history, and can't possibly be the major eschatological view. You might want to look outside the Pretrib box to see if you're being misled?

    I know, brother, because I was not raised up on Pretrib teaching. But I got in with a group of Christians I respected who were Pretrib, and I adopted their beliefs. But when I was confronted with Paul's teaching in 2 Thessalonians 2 I had to choose for truth or friends. I chose what I believed to be the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    I think they asked two questions but got three answers because Jesus added the Rapture in there, eve though it went over their head at that time.
    I suppose you believe what you *want* to believe? I don't see any Rapture in there. Your view, if consistent, would place the Rapture in Jesus' generation. That's because the passage you claim is the Rapture actually describes something Jesus said would happen in his own generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    I did an Exegesis in Matthew 24, my findings were this in BRIEF:

    Mathew 24:1-6 Was about the Temple and its Destruction.

    Matthew 24:7-13 was about the panoramic view of a 2000 year period between Jesus' death and the Rapture that's to come. Which is why I say Matthew 24:32-44 should come between verse 13 and verse 14.

    Matthew 24:14-26 is the End of the Age, the Church has just been Raptured and the 70th Week starts. This is Jacobs Trouble or the Tribulation. Notice when the Abomination happens at the 3 1/2 year mark, then the Troubles start. Israel is chased into the Wilderness where God protects them for 1260 Days. Jesus warns them not to go out unto any false prophets or false christs who do lying wonders, (INFERENCE...They will kill you) but WATCH for me, for I will come in the Eastern Skies IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those Days...........

    Matthew 24:27-31 as shown above, is the SECOND COMING.

    Matthew 24:32-44 is the Rapture.
    I've already given you my view. The AoD happened in Jesus' generation, and cannot be the Antichrist. Luke 21 explains very clearly what the AoD consisted of. It was the Roman Army encircling Jerusalem, preparing to take down the temple. This was the answer to the question Jesus' disciples asked him. They asked when the temple would be brought down. Jesus answer?: In "this generation." This is *not* the Rapture!

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    No the THIS GENERATION is referring to when the Fig Tree is RIPE.......SUMMER......That Generation that sees those Signs will be THE GENERATION.

    The Generation 2000 years Could not see all of those Signs come to pass. Meaning

    1.) The Preaching of the Gospel unto all the World (You can't twist it to say it was preached unto all the world 2000 years ago, you can try, but it WAS NOT.)

    2.) The Abomination has not happened yet. Everyone knows this. Daniel 12:1-2 along with Matthew 24:14-22 and Revelation 12 all tie together to prove the Abomination of Desolation is an END TIME EVENT......1000 Percent, it can be nothing else.

    3.) The Birth Pangs will all be very Evident, Famine/Hunger/Wars/Earthquakes etc. etc.

    4.) Because of the LOVE OF SIN, many shall wax Cold or Grow evil, supporting Homosexuality and Abortion is MY TAKE COLD HEARTED PEOPLE.
    No, Jesus explained that the signs of the impending destruction of Jerusalem could be compared to a fig tree just budding in the Spring. "All these things" to take place in "this generation" referred to the *destruction of the temple!* The other things Jesus mentioned were preparations for that event, the rumors of war, and the wars themselves. These things would lead to the fall of Jerusalem.

    The gospel had to be preached first, before this would take place. Jesus said the ministry of the gospel would *begin* at that time, but would continue throughout the whole age, during the entire time of the Jews' distress. The entire age would be a "distress" for the Jews, beginning with the fall of Jerusalem. But the gospel would continue to be preached during that time. Jesus never said the gospel ministry would be *completed* in his generation--just that the gospel ministry would take place at that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    The Saints of Old are Gods Bride, study it, they are not the bride of Christ. I assume nothing. That is just something you guys have to say to try explaining Rev. 19. Its like a cycle, nothing fits so it must be forced. With the Rapture, EVERYTHING FITS LIKE A GLOVE. Because its the truth of God, it coming very soon. Be Ready.
    I'm always ready when I walk in obedience. I don't expect an any-moment Rapture though, an imminent Rapture. Rather, I stay ready all the time just as its good to be pure all the time. Don't you believe you should be pure all the time? Or do you think it's okay to be pure sometimes and at other times not?

    Of course you think you should be pure all the time. That's all that Jesus meant when he told his disciples to "always be ready." We're supposed to walk in righteousness 100% of the time. It has nothing to do with an imminent Rapture of the Church. It has everything to do with *staying awake.* If we walk in righteousness all the time we will not "fall asleep," and then meet with sudden, unexpected judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    It is future to us, but it is happening while the Tribulation is happening on Earth.
    That's not what it says to me. It says that the Great Multitude comes out of the Tribulation at the *end* of it. It is a Postrib Rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    Israel has nor REPENTED..........RIGHT? None of those things have come to pass yet. But they will just after the Church is Rapture God takes away Israels Blindness. Remember Paul said Israel is blind IN PART until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled. When the Church is Raptured, Israel will see again. AMEN.
    As I said, Dan 9 and the 70 Weeks have nothing to do with the national repentance of Israel. It has to do with the earthly ministry of Jesus which *prepares* for that event. Israel's repentance takes place at Jesus' 2nd coming. But Daniel's 70 Weeks only takes us to the 1st coming of Jesus.

  3. #123

    Re: The restrainer and the falling away

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, Jesus explained that the signs of the impending destruction of Jerusalem could be compared to a fig tree just budding in the Spring. "All these things" to take place in "this generation" referred to the *destruction of the temple!* The other things Jesus mentioned were preparations for that event, the rumors of war, and the wars themselves. These things would lead to the fall of Jerusalem.
    ^ Verse 34, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (verses 27-31 were "fulfilled" in that past "generation" [70ad]??)

    Verse 36, "But of THAT DAY AND HOUR knoweth no man..." (that day and hour back then?? since it's referring to something earlier in the passage. What 'day' and 'hour'? the fall of Jerusalem?) V.37 "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." [see my other recent post on that http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...98#post3382198 ]


    You're becoming Preterist-y-er by the day.

  4. #124

    Re: The restrainer and the falling away

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I assume you mean the "taken" and "left" passages... while I agree with you (as you may recall) that these are not referring to the time of our Rapture, I cannot agree with you that they refer to the time of the events surrounding 70ad. Because the passages refer to "the Son of man cometh / the coming of the Son of man" (always referring to His 2nd Coming to the earth), and Matt25:31-34 says, "WHEN the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory..." (see also Matt19:28, then Lk22:30,16,18, then Matt26:29).

    Also note Matt24:51's "weeping and gnashing of teeth" which He'd said in Matt13:30,39,40,41-42,49-50 (about the same "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" subject, which was their later question in Matt24:3 and His answer followed), when the angels will "reap" (do you think they did that back then in 70ad? and that that is not a future reference? the wheat and the tares were separated back then, and not future?)



    The server can't be THAT "busy," can it?

    [posting this before it gets cut off again]


    Those "taken" are taken away in judgment (just as in Noah's day); those "left" are left to enter the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom time period (upon His "return" to the earth FOR the MK time period there)... just as in Noah's day. [compare Gen9:1 with Dan2:35 active "fill/filled"]
    Yea, I've had a lot of problems with the "busy server" to. It could actually be other things as well. Anyway, I understand that you think "gnashing teeth" is in both Matthew 24 and Matthew 13, connected with the end of the age. Well yes. My argument doesn't dispute that a part of Matthew 24 has to do with the end of the age. My argument is that the *primary emphasis* of Matthew 24 is on *when* the temple will fall, when the city of Jerusalem will fall to the Romans. In Luke 21 Jesus made it clear that this event had to do with armies encircling Jerusalem. The "eagles gathering to the corpse" sounds like a Roman Army with their "eagle" emblems. Running down from the housetops sounded like Jesus' day, and not our day. Some being taken away captive, and some being left sounds like what happened in 70 AD.

    But I fully recognize that another question was asked in Matthew 24 about the end of the age and Jesus' return. Two events, therefore, were being dealt with, and not just one. It's important, I feel, to properly distinguish one from the other. One event was to take place in Jesus' generation, and that was the Roman judgment in 70 AD. The other event does take place at the end of the age, and that is Jesus' return.

    What makes this very interesting...and difficult...for me is the fact that Jesus sort of blended both these events together in a single discourse. It's as if he's explaining his 2nd Coming by the purpose of his 1st Coming. His 1st Coming would not be what the unbelieving Jews thought--the deliverance of national Israel from the Romans. Instead, Jesus' 1st Coming would mean judgment for unbelieving, unrepentant Jews. Therefore, instead of expecting an imminent coming of the Kingdom Jesus told his disciples to expect judgment in their own generation, followed by years and years of exile--the Jewish Diaspora. Jesus' 2nd Coming, likewise, would mean judgment for an unbelieving, unrepentant world. Thus, Jesus tied both his 1st and 2nd Comings together. They would both bring judgment to the rebellious world.

    Did Jesus depict his coming as a form of judgment in this age? Yes...

    Rev 2.5 If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

    Rev 2.16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

    Rev 3.3 But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

    What Jesus was warning against was earthly judgment in this life--not at his eschatological coming. Similarly, in Jesus' day he warned his disciples against the things that would happen in their own day, and not just in the eschatological future. His emphasis was primarily on the current generation. But he did deal with future generations as well, including his 2nd Coming.

  5. #125

    Re: The restrainer and the falling away

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yea, I've had a lot of problems with the "busy server" to. It could actually be other things as well.
    My friend who runs another site told me about those...

  6. #126

    Re: The restrainer and the falling away

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    ^ Verse 34, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (verses 27-31 were "fulfilled" in that past "generation" [70ad]??)

    Verse 36, "But of THAT DAY AND HOUR knoweth no man..." (that day and hour back then?? since it's referring to something earlier in the passage. What 'day' and 'hour'? the fall of Jerusalem?) V.37 "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." [see my other recent post on that http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...98#post3382198 ]


    You're becoming Preterist-y-er by the day.
    If you're referring to me, I'm not a Preterist. I hold to an historical interpretation of the Olivet Discourse, together with a futurist view of certain select items. The focus of the Olivet Discourse was *said* to be directed at the historical destruction of the temple. Preterists do not own that. The Early Church Fathers believed that as well!

    It is modern Futurist Dispensationalists who seem to want to remove the historical context from the Olivet Discourse, to make some future generation witnessing the rebirth of Israel as the "last generation." Well, that just hasn't worked out. We're about 70 years out from the self-proclamation of the Israeli state in 1947 (UN recognized in 1948).

    Jesus was much more interested in his own present time than in future times. He is always concerned about the *present* much more than crystal ball reading the future, speculations about prophetic calendars, etc. Living right in the present is always the priority over prophetic speculations about the future!

    But let me explain it again. The Olivet Discourse was primarily focused on the *destruction of the temple.* That happened historically in 70 AD. Jesus was warning his disciples about this event, and the disciples wanted to know *when* it would take place.

    So Jesus gave a few preliminary signs as evidence that this event was about to take place, and then declared that event would take place in *their generation.* That was the answer to their question: *their generation.*

    Jesus did not say *everything* he mentioned in the Olivet Discourse would take place in his generation--only the things that had to do with the temple's destruction. He was not saying the gospel ministry would be finished in his generation, nor that the Kingdom would come in their generation. No, he said that "all these things," ie the things he had been asked about, would take place in their generation.

    They had asked about two things, the temple's destruction and the 2nd Coming. The things to take place in his own generation had to do with the 1st question, when the temple would be destroyed. "All of those things" would be fulfilled in *their generation.*

  7. #127

    Re: The restrainer and the falling away

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It is modern Futurist Dispensationalists who seem to want to remove the historical context from the Olivet Discourse, to make some future generation witnessing the rebirth of Israel as the "last generation."
    As a pre-tribber [I know you're not], I've already stated why I believe Luke 21:12-24a is the section of the Olivet Discourse answering the question regarding "when shall these things be?" [regarding the Temple (& 70ad things); Lk21:7 (24b being the long time period to the END of the trib even)]... the rest of the Olivet Discourse He's speaking prophetically regarding that future time period that will lead up to His 2nd Coming to the earth and the commencement of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom.

    Luke 21:12's "But before all these" signals the change in subject He's covering.

    I believe the "ye/you/your" is consistent... throughout the Olivet Discourse. For example, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." ... "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (whoso readeth let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains" (and this is the one that I believe correlates with the Rev12:6,14 passage, at the point when there are 1260 days remaining to His 2nd Coming to the earth.)



    I've pointed out before, the very clear distinction between the Olivet Discourse's:

    --"Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom PREPARED FOR YOU *FROM* the foundation of the world" (speaking to the Sheep of the nations who "bless" the believing remnant of Israel during their future time of trouble ['the least of these My brethren' not being 'separated/judged' here]); and


    the Upper Room Discourse's:

    --"I GO TO PREPARE a place for you..."


    [one was "prepared FROM the foundation of the world," the other "I GO TO prepare..."]

  8. #128

    Re: The restrainer and the falling away

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    As a pre-tribber [I know you're not], I've already stated why I believe Luke 21:12-24a is the section of the Olivet Discourse answering the question regarding "when shall these things be?" [regarding the Temple (& 70ad things); Lk21:7 (24b being the long time period to the END of the trib even)]... the rest of the Olivet Discourse He's speaking prophetically regarding that future time period that will lead up to His 2nd Coming to the earth and the commencement of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom.

    Luke 21:12's "But before all these" signals the change in subject He's covering.

    I believe the "ye/you/your" is consistent... throughout the Olivet Discourse. For example, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." ... "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (whoso readeth let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains" (and this is the one that I believe correlates with the Rev12:6,14 passage, at the point when there are 1260 days remaining to His 2nd Coming to the earth.)
    Yes, I was speaking to that issue when I pointed out that Jesus "blended" his 2 comings together by marking his 1st Coming as an illustration of his purpose in preparing for his 2nd Coming. Let me explain again.

    The disciples and Jews in general thought Jesus' 1st Coming might bring about the promised Messianic restoration of Israel. But Jesus made it clear his purpose was to prepare for judgment. In other words, Israel would be judged in 70 AD and go through an age-long Diaspora. Jesus' gospel was to warn Israel about that, rather than to bring about immediate salvation to national Israel.

    And so I pointed out that Jesus made his 1st coming appear to be a kind of *judgment.* And throughout this age Jesus' coming means judgment in the here and now, and not just at the eschatological fulfillment. I gave you some quotes from Rev 2-3 to show you examples of that. Jesus came to bring judgment as well as salvation. And this happens all through our lives and all through the present age, up until the final judgment at Christ's coming.

    So when Jesus addresses "you" to his disciples he is including people in the present time, including people throughout the present era all the way up until the 2nd Coming. Jesus comes in pre-eschatological judgment to everybody in this age, determining their final outcome in their *present lives.* That is why, I believe, Jesus blended together his 1st and 2nd comings, because they bring about the same judgment. This is not to confuse them as if they are the same thing. Rather, it is to show people that they cannot put off judgment until the end of their lives or until some eschatological future. Judgment is today, just as salvation is today.

    The discourse of Jesus cannot be broken up by books. Luke 21, Mark 13, and Matthew 24 all reflect the same thing. I would include Luke 17 in this as well, except that it is a companion to Luke 21, focusing on the kind of details I'm speaking about here--the idea that the "coming of the Lord," or the "day of the Lord," can be viewed as something that takes place in our lives today, or in the context of 70 AD. This is not preterism. Rather, this is the idea that Jesus does come to bring judgment in the present age in pre-eschatological forms.

    My own pastor rejects the idea that God judges in the present era. He thinks Satan, nature, or our own misdeeds bring about "judgment" or earthquakes or wars in the present era--not God. I think that's baloney. God is responsible for everything that goes on in the present era, grace notwithstanding. Jesus' 1st coming was to show us this purpose of judgment. It was a preparation for the 2nd Coming as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark
    I've pointed out before, the very clear distinction between the Olivet Discourse's:

    --"Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom PREPARED FOR YOU *FROM* the foundation of the world" (speaking to the Sheep of the nations who "bless" the believing remnant of Israel during their future time of trouble ['the least of these My brethren' not being 'separated/judged' here]); and
    the Upper Room Discourse's:

    --"I GO TO PREPARE a place for you..."
    [one was "prepared FROM the foundation of the world," the other "I GO TO prepare..."]
    Jesus prepared a place for all groups in all times. This was not just for one particular group. Jesus was talking about his necessary death on the cross to make a place for all his people in the eternal Kingdom of God. We *all* benefit from this--not just some.

  9. #129
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    Re: The restrainer and the falling away

    You're not accurate in your assessment. Although the Gathering of the Church is in view, the word "departure" does not apply to the Church, but rather, to the Revelation of Antichrist. The object is the Antichrist, and not the Church. Paul said that Jesus could not yet have come for the Church because the Revelation of Antichrist had to precede it. Said another way, the Day of the Lord, ie the coming of Christ for the Church, could not have happened yet because the revelation of Antichrist had to precede it.

    You are ignoring the main object of Paul's message, which is that Antichrist must come first. This is important because we are to be aware that deceptions precede our ultimate salvation. Before we arrive at the Kingdom we have to pass through trials and temptations.

    This is precisely what Jesus had said to his disciples. When asked about *when* he would come he emphasized first the need to deal with impostors, deceptions, and misdirections. This then is what Paul is saying, that before you can think Christ is coming you must be prepared to deal with the counterfeits.
    It is utterly astounding how you guys can read that passage over and over and keep reading whats obvious........wrong. It has absolutely nothing to do with what you say. It is about the Thessalonians fretting that they were going to go through Gods Wrath and Paul telling them DON'T SWEAT IT !! The Church must Depart first, the the Anti-Christ must come, before the Wrath of God comes. So of you need to give up on the KJV, I have noticed some people just can't read it and get the proper meaning from it.

    Try the Holman Bible here........I will place in the Departure of the Church because they make the same mistake you do assuming its an apostasy that is being spoken of, when its the Departure of the Church in reality. Reading this its CLEAR what Paul is speaking about.........

    The Man of Lawlessness
    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy (UNLESS THE CHURCH DEPARTS FIRST) comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.

    5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? 6 And you know what currently restrains him, so that he will be revealed in his time.

    It's 100 percent clear, they were fearing that they were in the DAY OF THE LORD (Gods Wrath) and thus the Subject they feared was EASED by Paul who told them, DON'T FEAR, for have not I told you, the Departing of the Church comes FIRST !! Then the Anti-Christ is BROUGHT FORTH/REVEALED/Comes to power ALSO before the Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath) comes upon the world !! SO QUIT FRETTING. This is so plain. Men gave you that and it has you set in a belief. I don't start with a built in bias. I look at scriptures and look at the root words and let it go where it goes.

    No, I understand that you separate the Rapture of the Church from the 2nd Coming when there is absolutely no explicit doctrine describing this in the entire Bible! My point, which you avoided, is that these passages express the coming of Christ's Kingdom to earth--not just Christ's coming itself. And if Christ's Kingdom is coming to earth, then Christ himself must come to earth.

    1 Cor 15.24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
    1 Cor. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    Christ is the First-fruits AFTER THAT we are Christs (When he comes for us to take us to his Fathers Mansion to marry us) THEN.....Comes the END !!! When we come back with Christ just like Rev. 19 says. Of course that's OLD SAINTS even though no where in the bible are they called the Bride of Christ, it just helps out a narrative.

    This is talking about the coming of Christ's Kingdom to earth--just as it is described in Dan 7.

    Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
    You trying to Compare the Second Coming to the Rapture again.......this comes up WAY SHORT again and again. Since Paul said it was a MYSTERY why do you even try to find it in the Old Testament. Its there, but one has to be very clever to see it...TRY Daniel 12:2

    Your other "Rapture" passage in 1 Thes 4 says the same thing and is based on the same passage in Dan 7, along with its associated passage in Dan 12...

    1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

    This is based on the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven in Dan 7. The resurrection comes from Dan 12, which is also tied in with Dan 7 via the 3.5 years. And so, Paul is drawing his theology from Dan 7 and the idea that Christ is coming to *earth* in order to bring his Kingdom to earth! Christ is not coming to remain in heaven! That's absurd.
    Again you trying to find the Rapture in the Old Testament is whats absurd. Its like you can't understand what Paul clearly said, I tell you a Mystery. REMEMBER...Like I have stated, your opinion is the one that is the odd man out, the minority view of Christendom all the world over, not mine. Its very obvious to me. Jesus is comong for the Church very soon. YOU WILL BE GOING WITH US.............KICKING and SCREAMING........

    Have you considered the possibility that *you* are getting most of your input from Pretribbers? You may think the whole world is Pretrib, but it isn't. That's what Pretribbers may want you to think. The truth is, Pretrib is a relatively recent innovation in Christian history, and can't possibly be the major eschatological view. You might want to look outside the Pretrib box to see if you're being misled?

    I know, brother, because I was not raised up on Pretrib teaching. But I got in with a group of Christians I respected who were Pretrib, and I adopted their beliefs. But when I was confronted with Paul's teaching in 2 Thessalonians 2 I had to choose for truth or friends. I chose what I believed to be the truth.
    I get my info from God NOT MEN, I went 25 years and didn't even worry about it one way or another. When I search stuff out I don't allow anyone to guide me except the Holy Spirit. Its just too obvious. Every scripture the anti pre-tribber has is a half truth that can be quickly resolved, most of the things they cite are just misinformation, like this......but Jesus comes IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation.........yea, with the Church in tow. Stuff like that, half truths that we know where they come from originally.

    You said when "I was confronted with Paul's teaching in 2 Thess. 2", which proves some MAN TWISTED the Scriptures and got you believing something he wanted you to believe. Paul's teaching is clearly saying the Church departs and the Anti-Christ comes forth before the Wrath of God comes. There is no basis to change ones belief because of that scripture.

    I suppose you believe what you *want* to believe? I don't see any Rapture in there. Your view, if consistent, would place the Rapture in Jesus' generation. That's because the passage you claim is the Rapture actually describes something Jesus said would happen in his own generation.
    Jesus is clearly saying that the Generation that sees those SIGNS coming to pass will see the End Time come before their Generation ends. You just have it crossed up a wee bit it seems.

    I've already given you my view. The AoD happened in Jesus' generation, and cannot be the Antichrist. Luke 21 explains very clearly what the AoD consisted of. It was the Roman Army encircling Jerusalem, preparing to take down the temple. This was the answer to the question Jesus' disciples asked him. They asked when the temple would be brought down. Jesus answer?: In "this generation." This is *not* the Rapture!
    No it didn't, just because you say it did doesn't make it so. Matthew 24 is clearly pointing to the Abomination at the End Times, when Israel Flees, and the TIME OF TROUBLES is, just like Daniel 12:1-2 says. It is just mind boggling you can't read Dan. 12:1-2 and see the Rapture right there with the time of TROUBLE....

    Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up (REV 12}, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble,Matthew 24:21-22) such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,(Rapture happens at the time of TROUBLE) and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    How do you guys miss these things? Rev. 12 Michael casts Satan out of Heaven, the WOMAN (Israel) Flees and God protects her for 1260 Days. Jesus tells Israel to FLEE when the Abomination of Desolation happens in Matthew 24......Rev. 12, Matthew 24 and Daniel 12:1-2 all fit like a Glove with END TIME EVENTS. Because they all three are the EXACT SAME EVENTS !!!

    You will be going with us..............We gonaa kidnap you............

  10. #130

    Re: The restrainer and the falling away

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    It is utterly astounding how you guys can read that passage over and over and keep reading whats obvious........wrong. It has absolutely nothing to do with what you say. It is about the Thessalonians fretting that they were going to go through Gods Wrath and Paul telling them DON'T SWEAT IT !! The Church must Depart first, the the Anti-Christ must come, before the Wrath of God comes. So of you need to give up on the KJV, I have noticed some people just can't read it and get the proper meaning from it.

    Try the Holman Bible here........I will place in the Departure of the Church because they make the same mistake you do assuming its an apostasy that is being spoken of, when its the Departure of the Church in reality. Reading this its CLEAR what Paul is speaking about.........

    The Man of Lawlessness
    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy (UNLESS THE CHURCH DEPARTS FIRST) comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.

    5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? 6 And you know what currently restrains him, so that he will be revealed in his time.

    It's 100 percent clear, they were fearing that they were in the DAY OF THE LORD (Gods Wrath) and thus the Subject they feared was EASED by Paul who told them, DON'T FEAR, for have not I told you, the Departing of the Church comes FIRST !! Then the Anti-Christ is BROUGHT FORTH/REVEALED/Comes to power ALSO before the Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath) comes upon the world !! SO QUIT FRETTING. This is so plain. Men gave you that and it has you set in a belief. I don't start with a built in bias. I look at scriptures and look at the root words and let it go where it goes.
    Two *major* things wrong with this. One, it makes no sense for Paul to warn the Thessalonians about the approaching man of sin if he had explained to them that the Church would be gone, that they wouldn't even face this challenge!

    And two, it makes no sense for Paul to address the Rapture of the Church as a "gathering to Christ" and then turn around and describe it as a *departure* to Christ. No, I think it makes much more sense that the Thessalonians thought that some self-proclaimed "Jesus" had appeared in the region, and was reported to be "gathering" together Christians in fulfillment of the 2nd Coming. These were the very people Jesus warned about...

    Matthew 24.4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many... 26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it."


    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    1 Cor. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    Christ is the First-fruits AFTER THAT we are Christs (When he comes for us to take us to his Fathers Mansion to marry us) THEN.....Comes the END !!! When we come back with Christ just like Rev. 19 says. Of course that's OLD SAINTS even though no where in the bible are they called the Bride of Christ, it just helps out a narrative.
    There is nothing of significance here with respect to my argument. My argument is very simple. 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4 compares with Dan 7 and Dan 12, such that Paul's arguments appear to *originate* with them. In other words, Paul is basing his NT eschatology on this particular OT prophecy! If so, then what we learn from this OT prophecy will tell us what Paul meant.

    Dan 7 and Dan 12 paint a picture of the Son of Man coming to establish his Kingdom on earth. And it shows that this is when the resurrection of the saints takes place. If indeed Dan 7 shows the Son of Man establishing his Kingdom *on earth,* then Paul had to mean *exactly the same thing.* Jesus comes to establish his Kingdom on *earth* in both 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4.

    Obviously, if Jesus comes to establish his Kingdom on earth he must come *to earth* in order to establish his Kingdom here! That's just plain logical.


    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    You trying to Compare the Second Coming to the Rapture again.......this comes up WAY SHORT again and again. Since Paul said it was a MYSTERY why do you even try to find it in the Old Testament. Its there, but one has to be very clever to see it...TRY Daniel 12:2
    Actually, you're *assuming* that NT eschatology is *different* from OT eschatology, and it isn't. I quite agree that there are mysteries revealed in the NT Scriptures. But it isn't at all inconsistent with OT eschatology.

    And this is my point, that OT eschatology produces a theology that NT Scriptures draw directly from. The NT concept of the Rapture of the Church in no way deviates from the Postrib context that is offered in OT Scriptures. You are inserting something that is utterly alien to the Postrib context of the 2nd Coming, claiming a Pretrib Rapture is the product of Paul. That is utterly irresponsible, since Paul was teaching out of the OT Scriptures himself! He derived the "descent from heaven" in 1 Thes 4 from the "coming of the Son of Man with the clouds of heaven" in Dan 7. Paul derived the establishment of Christ's Kingdom on earth in 1 Cor 15 from the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth in Dan 7. If Paul derived his doctrines from OT Scriptures who are you to invent new revelations and put them in the mouth of Paul, particularly when they are inconsistent with OT prophecy of the 2nd Coming?

    Even worse, Paul teaches in 2 Thes 2 that Christ comes for his Church *after* the revelation of Antichrist. Your Pretrib revelation that Paul supposedly had is utterly in contradiction with this! You are clearly wrong to put a Pretrib revelation in the mouth of Paul!

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    Again you trying to find the Rapture in the Old Testament is whats absurd. Its like you can't understand what Paul clearly said, I tell you a Mystery. REMEMBER...Like I have stated, your opinion is the one that is the odd man out, the minority view of Christendom all the world over, not mine. Its very obvious to me. Jesus is comong for the Church very soon. YOU WILL BE GOING WITH US.............KICKING and SCREAMING........
    Amusing. However, the serious problem you have is that you're introducing a novel idea. No matter how many people hold to this view today, it was introduced in the 1800s, and does not enjoy a very long history. Even worse, you have to re-interpret 2 Thes 2 in a bizarre way to accommodate your belief. What you say 2 Thes 2 says is not even remotely there! There is *zero* Pretrib doctrine in 2 Thes 2. You simply insert it and claim that it is an unusual exclusively Pauline revelation. A red light should be going off in your head!

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    I get my info from God NOT MEN, I went 25 years and didn't even worry about it one way or another. When I search stuff out I don't allow anyone to guide me except the Holy Spirit. Its just too obvious. Every scripture the anti pre-tribber has is a half truth that can be quickly resolved, most of the things they cite are just misinformation, like this......but Jesus comes IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation.........yea, with the Church in tow. Stuff like that, half truths that we know where they come from originally.
    You're of course entitled to your belief. However, this isn't "misinformation* when I say that Pretrib history has had a short history, and a controversial one at that. I don't blame people for following a popular doctrine when they don't know the history. Like me they were sort of brought into it among good friends. Some people are raised in it, thinking any other belief is heresy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    You said when "I was confronted with Paul's teaching in 2 Thess. 2", which proves some MAN TWISTED the Scriptures and got you believing something he wanted you to believe. Paul's teaching is clearly saying the Church departs and the Anti-Christ comes forth before the Wrath of God comes. There is no basis to change ones belief because of that scripture.
    If it was that clear, R-Man, you'd think the Church would've taught that during the 1st 1800 years of its history? Yet why didn't they teach it? It was because it just wasn't there! It is an insertion into the teachings of Scriptures and justified as a novel Pauline revelation. You just have to "get it."

    But you're dead wrong about me. When I say I was "confronted" with 2 Thes 2 I was saying that *Paul's argument* confronted me--not anybody else. I was a Pretribber when I memorized the letter. After memorizing the letter I became a convinced Postribber. Nobody else had a thing to do with it. And that's why I rest my strongest argument against Pretrib from 2 Thes 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    Jesus is clearly saying that the Generation that sees those SIGNS coming to pass will see the End Time come before their Generation ends. You just have it crossed up a wee bit it seems.
    No, I just interpret things differently than you do. I take Jesus' words literally here. He says "all these things" are going to happen in "this generation." Well, "this generation" is pretty clear--this was Jesus' generation. So what were "all these things" to take place at that time? They were all the things associated with the destruction of the temple, including the destruction of Jerusalem, the surrounding of Jerusalem by Roman armies, and the signs that this was about to happen, including "wars and rumors of wars."

    There is no question that Jesus referred to his 2nd Coming too. But this was a different question and had a different answer elsewhere. No way did Jesus include his 2nd Coming in the things to happen in his own generation!

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    No it didn't, just because you say it did doesn't make it so. Matthew 24 is clearly pointing to the Abomination at the End Times, when Israel Flees, and the TIME OF TROUBLES is, just like Daniel 12:1-2 says. It is just mind boggling you can't read Dan. 12:1-2 and see the Rapture right there with the time of TROUBLE....

    Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up (REV 12}, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble,Matthew 24:21-22) such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,(Rapture happens at the time of TROUBLE) and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    How do you guys miss these things? Rev. 12 Michael casts Satan out of Heaven, the WOMAN (Israel) Flees and God protects her for 1260 Days. Jesus tells Israel to FLEE when the Abomination of Desolation happens in Matthew 24......Rev. 12, Matthew 24 and Daniel 12:1-2 all fit like a Glove with END TIME EVENTS. Because they all three are the EXACT SAME EVENTS !!!

    You will be going with us..............We gonaa kidnap you............
    Like many Postribbers say, "it would be nice if you were right." But we really need to be prepared to face difficult tests. Actually we already do every day. It isn't an easy life being a Christian. It is not a popular thing. It is a respected thing at times, but not a popular thing over the long haul.

    I disagree with your interpretation of the AoD because you conflate its meaning with other passages--not the correct ones. I compare the AoD in Jesus' Discourse with the AoD in Dan 9. And I *don't* see the AoD in either case the Antichrist! Rather, it happened 490 years after Artaxerxes decree to restore Jerusalem. That was in the time of Jesus' generation. No, the AoD had to be the Roman desolation of Jerusalem in 70 AD. But I do believe the Antichrist will come as well at the end of the age. That can't be far off.

  11. #131

    Re: The restrainer and the falling away

    Quote Originally Posted by stoomart View Post
    Agreed, faith without works is dead, and it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Philippians 2:12-16

    Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

    1 Corinthians 13:1-3

    Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
    But, not just ANY works, but works that foil or undo the works of others that are, or could be defined as, "gross injustice."

    IMO, most especially, the works of others that are intended to murder others in our presence.

    If we do not intervene, or, have made ourselves unable to intervene, we are guilty.
    PROV 25:26 Like a muddied spring, and a polluted well, so is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked. -World English Bible

    MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.


    As opposed to the bad man that does nothing?

    MT 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

    Righteousness comes from the Bible, but our ability to possess the Bible comes from the possession of the sword.

  12. #132
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    Re: The restrainer and the falling away

    Quote Originally Posted by dan View Post
    But, not just ANY works, but works that foil or undo the works of others that are, or could be defined as, "gross injustice."

    IMO, most especially, the works of others that are intended to murder others in our presence.

    If we do not intervene, or, have made ourselves unable to intervene, we are guilty.
    The examples of works given in the passage are ones that demonstrate faith, like Abraham offering his son, or the apostles refusing to preach in front of the very men who killed Jesus. I suspect you are talking about Christians taking up arms, which I don't believe is what the Bible teaches us to do, but that's a whole nother topic. In the end our salvation comes down to loving God and loving one another, no matter what the cost to our lives is required.

    Romans 8:35-37

    Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written: “For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.” Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

    The falling away will be those Jesus talked about as the seed that fell among the rocks in Matthew 13.

  13. #133

    Re: The restrainer and the falling away

    Quote Originally Posted by stoomart View Post
    The examples of works given in the passage are ones that demonstrate faith, like Abraham offering his son, or the apostles refusing to preach in front of the very men who killed Jesus. I suspect you are talking about Christians taking up arms, which I don't believe is what the Bible teaches us to do, but that's a whole nother topic. In the end our salvation comes down to loving God and loving one another, no matter what the cost to our lives is required.

    Romans 8:35-37

    Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written: “For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.” Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

    The falling away will be those Jesus talked about as the seed that fell among the rocks in Matthew 13.
    When Jesus tells us that there is a city that is represented by a woman, and that woman is drunk with the blood of the Saints, and that we should fill up her cup twice as much as she has filled it to us, what does that mean to you?
    PROV 25:26 Like a muddied spring, and a polluted well, so is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked. -World English Bible

    MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.


    As opposed to the bad man that does nothing?

    MT 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

    Righteousness comes from the Bible, but our ability to possess the Bible comes from the possession of the sword.

  14. #134
    Join Date
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    Re: The restrainer and the falling away

    Quote Originally Posted by dan View Post
    When Jesus tells us that there is a city that is represented by a woman, and that woman is drunk with the blood of the Saints, and that we should fill up her cup twice as much as she has filled it to us, what does that mean to you?
    He will utterly destroy that city, the beast, and his armies to avenge the saints, so that it will never again be inhabited.

    Revelation 17:7-8a,13-14,18

    But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition.
    These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.
    And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

    Revelation 18:4,8,20-21

    And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
    Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
    “Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!” Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore.

    Revelation 19:2,14-15,19-21

    For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”
    And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

  15. #135
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    Re: The restrainer and the falling away

    please let the bible speak for itself....

    The RESTRAINER
    The Man of LAWlessness

    (The Scriptures 2009)

    2Th 2:1 As to the coming of our Master יהושעtheMessiah and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, brothers,
    2Th 2:2 not to become easily unsettled in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as if the Day of יהוה has come.
    2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way, because the falling away is to come first, and the MAN of LAWLESSNESS is to be revealed, the son of destruction,
    2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called Elohim or that is worshipped, so that he sits as Elohim in the Dwelling Place of Elohim, showing himself that he is Elohim.
    2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that I told you this while I was still with you?
    2Th 2:6 And now you know what RESTRAINS, for him to be revealed in his time.
    2Th 2:7 For the secret of LAWLESSNESS is already at work – only until he who now RESTRAINS comes out of the midst.
    2Th 2:8 And then the LAWLESS ONE shall be revealed, whom the Master shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth and bring to naught with the manifestation of His coming.
    2Th 2:9 The coming of the LAWLESS ONE is according to the working of Satan, with all power and signs and wonders of falsehood,
    2Th 2:10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth, in order for them to be saved.
    2Th 2:11 And for this reason Elohim sends them a working of delusion, for them to believe the falsehood,
    2Th 2:12 in order that all should be judged who did not believe the truth, but have delighted in the unrighteousnes

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