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Thread: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

  1. #1
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    Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    It is too easy to conclude that the sealed 144,000 in Revelation are ethnic Jews because we are told they come from the 12 tribes of Isreal. But are we not missing something here? Isn't there a possibility that the 144,000 actually represent the redeemed of God from all humanity?

    In Ezekiel 9:4 God instructs an angel to seal the righteous as a mark of separation from the wicked who are doomed for destruction. Isn't there a chance that the sealed 144,000 goes beyond ethnic Jews to contrast those who take the mark of the beast? Interestingly we see that the tribe of Dan is omitted, why?

    Can we totally disregard the thought that the 144,000 might be "symbolic" of all that are godly - drawn from both Jew and Gentile?

  2. #2

    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It is too easy to conclude that the sealed 144,000 in Revelation are ethnic Jews because we are told they come from the 12 tribes of Isreal. But are we not missing something here? Isn't there a possibility that the 144,000 actually represent the redeemed of God from all humanity?

    In Ezekiel 9:4 God instructs an angel to seal the righteous as a mark of separation from the wicked who are doomed for destruction. Isn't there a chance that the sealed 144,000 goes beyond ethnic Jews to contrast those who take the mark of the beast? Interestingly we see that the tribe of Dan is omitted, why?

    Can we totally disregard the thought that the 144,000 might be "symbolic" of all that are godly - drawn from both Jew and Gentile?
    I thought they were Jehovah's Witness. (Sorry, I know I am wrong for that)

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    rev 14:4 These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    they are not all ethnic jews, they are the first people in the time of the apostles who followed and give their lives to jesus christ.

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It is too easy to conclude that the sealed 144,000 in Revelation are ethnic Jews because we are told they come from the 12 tribes of Isreal. But are we not missing something here? Isn't there a possibility that the 144,000 actually represent the redeemed of God from all humanity?

    In Ezekiel 9:4 God instructs an angel to seal the righteous as a mark of separation from the wicked who are doomed for destruction. Isn't there a chance that the sealed 144,000 goes beyond ethnic Jews to contrast those who take the mark of the beast? Interestingly we see that the tribe of Dan is omitted, why?

    Can we totally disregard the thought that the 144,000 might be "symbolic" of all that are godly - drawn from both Jew and Gentile?
    It is too easy to conclude that the sealed 144,000 in Revelation are ethnic Jews because we are told they come from the 12 tribes of Isreal. But are we not missing something here? Isn't there a possibility that the 144,000 actually represent the redeemed of God from all humanity?
    There are only 12,000 Jews. The other 132,000 are from the other 11 tribes of Israel. These 144,000 are the only ones that are redeemed at this time. The Covenant is with Israel and Judah (the Jews)

    Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-

    In Ezekiel 9:4 God instructs an angel to seal the righteous as a mark of separation from the wicked who are doomed for destruction. Isn't there a chance that the sealed 144,000 goes beyond ethnic Jews to contrast those who take the mark of the beast?
    No.
    Interestingly we see that the tribe of Dan is omitted, why?
    Danís Mother was Bilhah, Read the story of her and Rubin.

    Can we totally disregard the thought that the 144,000 might be "symbolic" of all that are godly - drawn from both Jew and Gentile?
    No, The 144,000 are of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

    Rev 7: 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by mypeople View Post
    rev 14:4 These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    they are not all ethnic jews, they are the first people in the time of the apostles who followed and give their lives to jesus christ.
    The 144,000 are sealed during the 6th seal. -- (Now)

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It is too easy to conclude that the sealed 144,000 in Revelation are ethnic Jews because we are told they come from the 12 tribes of Isreal. But are we not missing something here? Isn't there a possibility that the 144,000 actually represent the redeemed of God from all humanity?

    In Ezekiel 9:4 God instructs an angel to seal the righteous as a mark of separation from the wicked who are doomed for destruction. Isn't there a chance that the sealed 144,000 goes beyond ethnic Jews to contrast those who take the mark of the beast? Interestingly we see that the tribe of Dan is omitted, why?

    Can we totally disregard the thought that the 144,000 might be "symbolic" of all that are godly - drawn from both Jew and Gentile?
    They are the church both new and gentile male and female. Its not even all of the 12 tribes that are named in revelation

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Isaiah 66:18b-21 says they are people from every nation and tongue and also says it is them who will proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Confirmed by Rev 5:9-10

    All the Redeemed of God are seen in Rev 7:9 and the 144,000 are selected out of them by Jesus. Rev 14:1 Jesus is revealed to His own, 2 Thess 1:10, soon after the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

  8. #8

    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Isn't there a possibility that the 144,000 actually represent the redeemed of God from all humanity?
    Not really. The manner in which these 144,000 are presented leaves no room for ambiguity or conjecture or debate.

    They are a microcosm of redeemed and restored Israel on earth (after the second coming of Christ), meaning the twelve tribes of Israel and the fulfillment of the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants.

    "All humanity" is always presented differently in Scripture as nations, kindreds, tribes, or another term.

  9. #9

    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Genesis 49 makes it clear that the physical descendents of Jacob have a role to play in the end times. Without that understanding, that Israel is the primary focus of the end times, and that ncludes the tribe of Dan, it is doubtful that one can understand why Dan is not one of the sealed tribes. It is as simple as understanding the difference between the birthright and the blessing. The blessing precedes the birthright inheritance. The Fathers blessing will precede the giving of the national inheritance. As is stated in Rev. 14, these are but the firstfruits of the time when all Israel shall be saved.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    Genesis 49 makes it clear that the physical descendents of Jacob have a role to play in the end times. Without that understanding, that Israel is the primary focus of the end times, and that ncludes the tribe of Dan, it is doubtful that one can understand why Dan is not one of the sealed tribes. It is as simple as understanding the difference between the birthright and the blessing. The blessing precedes the birthright inheritance. The Fathers blessing will precede the giving of the national inheritance. As is stated in Rev. 14, these are but the firstfruits of the time when all Israel shall be saved.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB
    16 "Dan shall judge his people As one of the tribes of Israel.

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by T W Taylor View Post
    There are only 12,000 Jews. The other 132,000 are from the other 11 tribes of Israel. These 144,000 are the only ones that are redeemed at this time. The Covenant is with Israel and Judah (the Jews)

    Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-


    No.


    Danís Mother was Bilhah, Read the story of her and Rubin.



    No, The 144,000 are of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

    Rev 7: 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
    I find some contradiction in your comments, for example, you said: "there are only 12,000 Jews, the 132,000 are from the other tribes of Israel". But the modern interpretation of "Jew" denotes all the ethnic seed of Jacob. I don't think the ancient distinction of the Southern kingdom of Judah as Jews and the northern kingdom as Israel is still valid. Today, every ethnic Israelite is a Jew.

    I don't see the relevance or any corroboration with Heb 8:8 to the seal of the 144,000.

    Simply directing your readers to read the story of Dan's mother and Rubin without shedding any light as to why the tribe of Dan was omitted from the 144,000 doesn't help. You certainly didn't prove that you understood it either.

    I never doubted that the 144,000 are of all the tribes of the children of Israel; my query is whether instead of a literal interpretation, could the 144,000 be viewed as symbolic and a representation of both Jew and Gentile?

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    They are the church both new and gentile male and female. Its not even all of the 12 tribes that are named in revelation
    Thanks, Marty, this is just what am trying to explore. Many simply hold without question that they are ethnic Jews. It's good to have a divergent view.

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    12 tribes of Israel are named in Rev. 7. Joseph replaces his son Ephraim but his son Manasseh is listed. Dan is not listed. People think the anti-Christ or his prophet will be of the tribe of Dan because of Jacob's prophecy in Genesis 49:16-17. The Levites are listed which were not counted in the censuses of Numbers 1 and 40 years later in Numbers 26, only the soldiers were counted. Both censuses counted 600,000. In Numbers 31, 1000 of each of the 12 tribes are selected. They take 840,000 items from the Midianites because of Balaam's plan (Rev. 2:14) that lead to 24,000 Israelite deaths in Numbers 25. Believers who think the 144000 are symbolic have not done their math work on the book of Numbers.

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by T W Taylor View Post
    16 "Dan shall judge his people As one of the tribes of Israel.
    It is also a fact that Dan is an embodiment of idolatry according to Judges 18. God warned in Deut 29: 20-21 that he will separate and blot out from the tribes of Israel the one that leads Israel to sin. It is arguable though, whether Dan is the only culprit here. I believe that the other tribes also were also guilty of idolatry - to what extent, however, is debatable.

    So I don't believe that Dan could possibly *judge* the other tribes for the above reasons.

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Thanks, Marty, this is just what am trying to explore. Many simply hold without question that they are ethnic Jews. It's good to have a divergent view.
    Your welcome. Many believe that they are all males but the bible doesn't state that it just says that they are virgins and haven't defiled themselves with women. Technically women could also defile themselves with women but I believe that them being virgins means that they are pure as Jesus has made the church pure. The church is also call the bride of the Christ but that doesn't mean that we are all women.

    Many also believe that they are 144 000 male virgin Jews who will take the gospel to the world but the bible also says nothing about that.

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