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Thread: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

  1. #196
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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection, over them the second death has no power.

    This does not say they have received spiritual immortality yet. How can they; before the Book of Life is opened?



    Luk 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    This proves that immortality is given at the resurrection. They cannot die! They are equal to the angels and are the resurrected children of God, which again, cannot die.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Luk 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    This proves that immortality is given at the resurrection. They cannot die! They are equal to the angels and are the resurrected children of God, which again, cannot die.
    Which happens at the Great White Throne Judgement, as Revelation tells us.
    Before that; those who are resurrected at Jesus' Return do not have immortality, they are like the saints raised with Jesus, but only He was immortalized. Lazarus is the prime example; Jesus made sure he was well and truly dead, then raised him, only for him to die again, presumably of old age. Lazarus must have had cell death, he was starting to decompose, but his body was made to function normally again.

    With this issue we are discussing, we must take care not to allow preconceived ideas and doctrines color our thinking and just read scripture as Written, making no assumptions or jumping to wrong conclusions.

    Have you ever considered that you might have been fooled into believing false teaching? I have been, and many others must have as well, as Jesus said: beware that you be not deceived and Paul says that people will be taken in by fables and fanciful notions. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 This actually makes people blinded to the truth. Isaiah 29:9-12
    But it can be overcome with prayer and an open mind. It also helps to understand what God really does want from His people. He doesn't want or need humans in heaven, we are made as earthly creatures, we have tasks to do here. There is no 'get outta here card' for anyone alive.

    It is written: Mankind is born to live and then to die; then comes the Judgement.

  3. #198
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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Having carefully studied the Prophetic Word for many years, I do understand it.

    You exegesis is faulty, you fail to read entire passages properly.
    Revelation 19:1-2 is clear: that vast throng in heaven, are the souls of the martyrs, who praise God for taking vengeance on their murderers. Proved by Rev 6:9-11, where those same martyrs are allowed to cry out. They await the completion of their number and when Jesus Returns, they will receive new earthly bodies, Rev 20:4

    Eternal, spiritual life does not begin for anyone until after the GWT judgement, only then is the Book of Life opened. Rev 20:12, Daniel 7:9-10
    We have the Promise of Eternal life, but the reality of it for all who have endured and kept faithful until the end: Rev 13:10, does not happen until after the Millennium.
    The fact you chose to ignore Paul's clear explanation of the nature of the resurrected in 1 Cor 15 continues to blight your understanding of when immortality/eternal life begins. For example, you said, " They await the completion of their number and when Jesus Returns, they will receive new earthly bodies, Rev 20:4".

    1. There is no such thing as *earthly bodies*. The resurrected only takes on an incorruptible immortal spiritual body, like the angels.
    2. They automatically get this spiritual body at the point of resurrection or rapture as promised, not when Jesus returns!
    3. They actually return with Jesus from heaven 1 Thess 3:13.

    The righteous (resurrected/raptured) have already received judgment in Rev 20:4 and have no need to be judged again at the GWT. Consequently, they reign in bliss with Jesus during the Millennium.

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Which happens at the Great White Throne Judgement, as Revelation tells us.
    Before that; those who are resurrected at Jesus' Return do not have immortality, they are like the saints raised with Jesus, but only He was immortalized. Lazarus is the prime example; Jesus made sure he was well and truly dead, then raised him, only for him to die again, presumably of old age. Lazarus must have had cell death, he was starting to decompose, but his body was made to function normally again.

    With this issue we are discussing, we must take care not to allow preconceived ideas and doctrines color our thinking and just read scripture as Written, making no assumptions or jumping to wrong conclusions.

    Have you ever considered that you might have been fooled into believing false teaching? I have been, and many others must have as well, as Jesus said: beware that you be not deceived and Paul says that people will be taken in by fables and fanciful notions. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 This actually makes people blinded to the truth. Isaiah 29:9-12
    But it can be overcome with prayer and an open mind. It also helps to understand what God really does want from His people. He doesn't want or need humans in heaven, we are made as earthly creatures, we have tasks to do here. There is no 'get outta here card' for anyone alive.

    It is written: Mankind is born to live and then to die; then comes the Judgement.
    The biggest lie is your claim that "those who are resurrected at Jesus return do not have immortality". So when do we acquire immortality?

    1 Cor 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    1 Cor 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    1 Cor 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    1 Cor 15:44 It is sown (buried) a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    What is clear from the above is that the dead assume the incorruptible, glorious, spiritual body immediately on the resurrection. And this 'spiritual body' is the requisite for eternity. There is nothing that suggests that they wait for 1000 years after the resurrection to get it.

    Any interpretation to the contrary is a fallacy.

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Which happens at the Great White Throne Judgement, as Revelation tells us.
    Rev tells us it happens before the thousand years begins, long before the GWTJ.Paul also places the resurrection at the second coming just prior to the rapture so you are way off on your timing.



    Before that; those who are resurrected at Jesus' Return do not have immortality
    Scripture shows that you are wrong:

    Luk 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.




    With this issue we are discussing, we must take care not to allow preconceived ideas and doctrines color our thinking and just read scripture as Written, making no assumptions or jumping to wrong conclusions.
    It would be wise if you took your own advice. Your entire position is based on preconceived ideas and that causes you to reject what scripture clearly says.



    Have you ever considered that you might have been fooled into believing false teaching? I have been
    Still are in this particular matter
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The fact you chose to ignore Paul's clear explanation of the nature of the resurrected in 1 Cor 15 continues to blight your understanding of when immortality/eternal life begins. For example, you said, " They await the completion of their number and when Jesus Returns, they will receive new earthly bodies, Rev 20:4".

    1. There is no such thing as *earthly bodies*. The resurrected only takes on an incorruptible immortal spiritual body, like the angels.
    2. They automatically get this spiritual body at the point of resurrection or rapture as promised, not when Jesus returns!
    3. They actually return with Jesus from heaven 1 Thess 3:13.

    The righteous (resurrected/raptured) have already received judgment in Rev 20:4 and have no need to be judged again at the GWT. Consequently, they reign in bliss with Jesus during the Millennium.
    The beliefs held by those who hold to the rapture doctrine, makes them see scripture in that light. They see things that are simply not there.
    1 Corinthians 15:50-18 is a prime example. Paul just does not say when that prophecy will take place. But we can know from Rev 21:4 that states; only then will Death be no more.
    Tying 1 Cor 15:53 with 1 Thess 4:15 is wrong because in the first it is the dead who will rise at the last Trumpet, at the end of the 1000 year Millennium and the total 7000 years of Mankind. The Thess prophecy is obviously at Jesus Return, when those who are alive and remain, will be supernaturally transported to where Jesus is.
    The Christian dead who will also rise at that time, are plainly just the martyrs, whose souls Jesus will bring with Him. Rev 29:4-7....the rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years has ended.

    Re immortality: Rev 20:6a says those martyrs killed during the world domination of the Anti-Christ will be resurrected and over them the second death has no power. It does not say they receive immortality or spiritual bodies. They live on earth, in earthly bodies and I gave 2 examples of how God will do that. {you ignored them]
    When they eventually stand with all the rest of humanity, they will be automatically be given immortality.

    My beliefs are soundly based on what I read for myself in the Bible. I have had no 'brainwashing' at Bible colleges or Seminaries.
    Those who think it is impossible for them to be taken in by false doctrines and theories, need to carefully consider what I have presented. Just discounting Bible truths is a very serious matter.

  7. #202
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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The Christian dead who will also rise at that time, are plainly just the martyrs, whose souls Jesus will bring with Him. Rev 29:4-7....the rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years has ended.
    Those rest of the dead are the unrighteous who are resurrected unto damnation. The first resurrection isn't only those who were beheaded but all righteous dead as Paul writes, "the dead in Christ rise first". That's ALL of them not just part.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Those rest of the dead are the unrighteous who are resurrected unto damnation. The first resurrection isn't only those who were beheaded but all righteous dead as Paul writes, "the dead in Christ rise first". That's ALL of them not just part.
    As I have had internet and Bible forum problems - 'The server is too busy just now, please try again later'. I thought maybe someone else would help out here and correct our brother; ewq1938.

    But no, so I have to accuse eqw1938 of adding to scripture; by putting 'all' in front of 'the Christian dead in 1 Thess 4:16 and by doing that he/she has violated the meaning of that prophecy, plus created an anomaly with Revelation 20:4, where it is plainly stated that only the martyrs who were killed by the 'beast' are resurrected at the Return of Jesus.
    Rev 20 goes on to confirm that the rest of the dead, righteous and wicked, do not rise until the Great White Throne Judgement, after the Millennium.

    I am fully aware of the reason eqw1938 and others try to make it seem that there is a general resurrection at Jesus' Return. This suits the 'rapture to heaven' theory.
    A very pretentious and totally unlikely idea, that contradicts the Words of Jesus and is contrary to what the Bible tells us will happen in the last days.

    The whole idea of a rapture to heaven for anyone living or dead, other than the two Witnesses, has become a kind of a joke, as the pre, mid and post tribbers battle it out, as they have for over 100 years, without any consensus or proof established. This is plainly the work of the 'author of confusion', but the Lord has allowed it to happen.
    Why? Because those who expect to get away without having to face any real testing or trials, will be very surprised and many will fall, renouncing the God that they think has failed them.
    What will happen is just as John the Baptist said in Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in His hand...He will clear His threshing floor and the good grain will be kept and the chaff burned up. This refers to the Sixth Seal worldwide ordeal by fire from the sun, Isaiah 30:26, where the Lord's enemies are burned up, Isaiah 30:27,28,30, Isaiah 66:15-17, Zephaniah 3:8, + and those who stood firm in their faith will go to live in all of the holy Land. Luke 21:34-36, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Isaiah 35:1-10, +

  9. #204
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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The beliefs held by those who hold to the rapture doctrine, makes them see scripture in that light. They see things that are simply not there.
    1 Corinthians 15:50-18 is a prime example. Paul just does not say when that prophecy will take place. But we can know from Rev 21:4 that states; only then will Death be no more.
    Tying 1 Cor 15:53 with 1 Thess 4:15 is wrong because in the first it is the dead who will rise at the last Trumpet, at the end of the 1000 year Millennium and the total 7000 years of Mankind. The Thess prophecy is obviously at Jesus Return, when those who are alive and remain, will be supernaturally transported to where Jesus is.
    The Christian dead who will also rise at that time, are plainly just the martyrs, whose souls Jesus will bring with Him. Rev 29:4-7....the rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years has ended.

    Re immortality: Rev 20:6a says those martyrs killed during the world domination of the Anti-Christ will be resurrected and over them the second death has no power. It does not say they receive immortality or spiritual bodies. They live on earth, in earthly bodies and I gave 2 examples of how God will do that. {you ignored them]
    When they eventually stand with all the rest of humanity, they will be automatically be given immortality.

    My beliefs are soundly based on what I read for myself in the Bible. I have had no 'brainwashing' at Bible colleges or Seminaries.
    Those who think it is impossible for them to be taken in by false doctrines and theories, need to carefully consider what I have presented. Just discounting Bible truths is a very serious matter.
    If I've learned anything in debating scriptures with you, it's that you are close-minded and entrenched in your views and everyone else is wrong. I can't say anything new that has not already been said with supporting scriptures. But unfortunately, you won't see it any other way than yours. For example, you rightfully confirm that "only the dead will rise" in 1 Thess 4:16, but ignored what Paul said in the next verse, 17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (those who arose) in the clouds.

    Your eschatology is incorrect and your intransegence means you can't see the wood for the trees.

    The last trump is associated with the first resurrection, so your claim that this will occur at the end of the 1000 years is awfully out of place.

    Again, your understanding of immortality and when it begins is another fallacy despite claiming that it's "soundly based on what you read in the Bible".

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    If I've learned anything in debating scriptures with you, it's that you are close-minded and entrenched in your views and everyone else is wrong. I can't say anything new that has not already been said with supporting scriptures. But unfortunately, you won't see it any other way than yours. For example, you rightfully confirm that "only the dead will rise" in 1 Thess 4:16, but ignored what Paul said in the next verse, 17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (those who arose) in the clouds.

    Your eschatology is incorrect and your intransegence means you can't see the wood for the trees.

    The last trump is associated with the first resurrection, so your claim that this will occur at the end of the 1000 years is awfully out of place.

    Again, your understanding of immortality and when it begins is another fallacy despite claiming that it's "soundly based on what you read in the Bible".
    All the above is a bunch of 'Trivialy' stated opinions.

    Saying that I ignore verse 17, is rude and unacceptable, as the discussion was about what happens to the dead.

    Having caught EWQ out for adding to scripture, I now ask you to prove that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 happens before the end of the Millennium.
    Actually, I have just re-read that chapter and I know you cannot do it. Your belief of a resurrection to immortality of any of the dead before the GWT Judgement, is totally unfounded. Paul is simply prophesying about the time of the End, the final sort out after the 7000 years allotted to mankind is completed.

    You accuse me of 'intransigence'. Yes I am that when it comes to Biblical Truths.
    But you are locked into false beliefs, and when the truth is presented, you resort to abuse, accusations and opinions of the 'wise'. Paul said: the wisdom of the wise will vanish. 1 Cor 3:18-20 and Jesus in Matthew 11:25...these things are hidden from the learned...

    It's simple, really; those who preach or promote theories, doctrines or ideas that are not Biblically provable, then they are wrong. All your replies to me, with so called supporting scriptures, I have refuted. I aren't surprised that you don't like to present your case again, as it is embarrassing to be shown how sadly deceived you are.

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    If I've learned anything in debating scriptures with you, it's that you are close-minded and entrenched in your views and everyone else is wrong. I can't say anything new that has not already been said with supporting scriptures. But unfortunately, you won't see it any other way than yours. For example, you rightfully confirm that "only the dead will rise" in 1 Thess 4:16, but ignored what Paul said in the next verse, 17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (those who arose) in the clouds.

    Your eschatology is incorrect and your intransegence means you can't see the wood for the trees.

    The last trump is associated with the first resurrection, so your claim that this will occur at the end of the 1000 years is awfully out of place.

    Again, your understanding of immortality and when it begins is another fallacy despite claiming that it's "soundly based on what you read in the Bible".
    All the above is a bunch of 'Trivialy' stated opinions.

    Saying that I ignore verse 17, is rude and unacceptable, as the discussion was about what happens to the dead.

    Having caught EWQ out for adding to scripture, I now ask you to prove that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 happens before the end of the Millennium.
    Actually, I have just re-read that chapter and I know you cannot do it. Your belief of a resurrection to immortality of any of the dead before the GWT Judgement, is totally unfounded. Paul is simply prophesying about the time of the End, the final sort out after the 7000 years allotted to mankind is completed.

    You accuse me of 'intransigence'. Yes I am that when it comes to Biblical Truths.
    But you are locked into false beliefs, and when the truth is presented, you resort to abuse, accusations and opinions of the 'wise'. Paul said: the wisdom of the wise will vanish. 1 Cor 3:18-20 and Jesus in Matthew 11:25...these things are hidden from the learned...

    It's simple, really; those who preach or promote theories, doctrines or ideas that are not Biblically provable, then they are wrong. All your replies to me, with so called supporting scriptures, I have refuted. I aren't surprised that you don't like to present your case again, as it is embarrassing to be shown how sadly deceived you are.

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Having caught EWQ out for adding to scripture
    I did no such thing.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I aren't surprised that you don't like to present your case again, as it is embarrassing to be shown how sadly deceived you are.
    Something embarrassing is afoot but not what you think it is...
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I did no such thing.
    Yes you did, you added 'all' before 'the Christian dead', in 1 Thess 4:16.
    You did that because of your belief in the false Rapture theory. But we know from Rev 20:4 that it isn't 'all' the Christian dead who are raised at Jesus' Return, so your attempt to make scripture fit your wrong beliefs, fails miserably and you are shown to be a promoter of false theories and doctrines.

    I almost think I should feel sorry for you and all who have had the truth presented to them, yet who just reject it, thinking you hold the moral high ground, with numerical superiority and so called scholarly exegesis. But when your theories are carefully examined in the light of all the Prophetic Word, they are found to be in error.
    Be assured, the Lord will ask: why did you not take heed of what is actually Written in the Bible? Of how My righteous people are no longer, in fact never were, a single ethnic nation and only true belief and faith counts for Salvation.
    Of how God will have a people in His holy Land who will bear the proper fruit, be his witnesses and display His Light to the nations.
    Great will be the Day!

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    Re: Could the 144,000 be more than ethnic Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Yes you did, you added 'all' before 'the Christian dead', in 1 Thess 4:16.
    I didn't add anything.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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