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Thread: Is Christ Mediator to all Mankind?

  1. #331
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    Re: Is Christ Mediator to all Mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Scripture for this please.
    John 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him.

    Some say Judas was never given to Jesus, some have even used verses like those above to support such a statement. Yet, where is context landing in a balanced understanding because Jesus ALSO referred to Judas as a sheep when He gave supernatural power to the 12when He sent them all out to proclaim

    Matthew 10:16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

    So, Judas was chosen to follow, given supernatural power, sent out as a sheep (equal with the other 11 disciples)... and is referred to as the ONLY one to be lost.

    So, Judas is covered by Jesus in prayer:

    John 17:6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

    But then... He prays in relation to Judas' actions and that he had been/will be, lost

    v 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[c] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

    Even though we all know... Judas' faith lacked and fruit of this lacking in faith lead to decisions he made. Of which, God knows he'll make and thus, WHY (fulfilling of scripture) he was chosen and given to Jesus as a disciple.

    So, at the end of the day, did God MAKE Judas do it to fulfill the scriptures, or did God know Judas would do what he'd do and the prophetic scriptures get fulfilled as God's plan unfolds?
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  2. #332
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    Re: Is Christ Mediator to all Mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    John 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him.

    Some say Judas was never given to Jesus, some have even used verses like those above to support such a statement. Yet, where is context landing in a balanced understanding because Jesus ALSO referred to Judas as a sheep when He gave supernatural power to the 12when He sent them all out to proclaim

    Matthew 10:16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

    So, Judas was chosen to follow, given supernatural power, sent out as a sheep (equal with the other 11 disciples)... and is referred to as the ONLY one to be lost.

    So, Judas is covered by Jesus in prayer:

    John 17:6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

    But then... He prays in relation to Judas' actions and that he had been/will be, lost

    v 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[c] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

    Even though we all know... Judas' faith lacked and fruit of this lacking in faith lead to decisions he made. Of which, God knows he'll make and thus, WHY (fulfilling of scripture) he was chosen and given to Jesus as a disciple.

    So, at the end of the day, did God MAKE Judas do it to fulfill the scriptures, or did God know Judas would do what he'd do and the prophetic scriptures get fulfilled as God's plan unfolds?
    It is true, Judas was never given to Jesus.

    Joh 6:39 And it is the will of him who sent me that I should not lose any of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them all to life on the last day.
    Joh 6:40 For what my Father wants is that all who see the Son and believe in him should have eternal life. And I will raise them to life on the last day."
    Joh 6:64 Yet some of you do not believe." (Jesus knew from the very beginning who were the ones that would not believe and which one would betray him.)
    Joh 6:65 And he added, "This is the very reason I told you that no people can come to me unless the Father makes it possible for them to do so."

    Judas never believed. The Father never drawn him.

    To be sent and have supernatural power does not make one a believer, one given to Christ.

    Mat 7:22 When the Judgment Day comes, many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord! In your name we spoke God's message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles!'
    Mat 7:23 Then I will say to them, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people!'

    He never prayed for Judas.

    Joh 17:2 For you gave him authority over all people, so that he might give eternal life to all those you gave him.
    Joh 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.
    Joh 17:8 I gave them the message that you gave me, and they received it; they know that it is true that I came from you, and they believe that you sent me.
    Joh 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those you gave me, for they belong to you.

    God can use anyone to fulfill His plans. It can be believers and unbelievers. Judas is an example of an unbeliever used.

    Lastly we know why Judas did it, because he did not believe he was prey for Satan.

    Joh 13:27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, "Hurry and do what you must!"

  3. #333
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    Re: Is Christ Mediator to all Mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    It is true, Judas was never given to Jesus.

    Joh 6:39 And it is the will of him who sent me that I should not lose any of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them all to life on the last day.
    Joh 6:40 For what my Father wants is that all who see the Son and believe in him should have eternal life. And I will raise them to life on the last day."
    Joh 6:64 Yet some of you do not believe." (Jesus knew from the very beginning who were the ones that would not believe and which one would betray him.)
    Joh 6:65 And he added, "This is the very reason I told you that no people can come to me unless the Father makes it possible for them to do so."

    Judas never believed. The Father never drawn him.

    To be sent and have supernatural power does not make one a believer, one given to Christ.

    Mat 7:22 When the Judgment Day comes, many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord! In your name we spoke God's message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles!'
    Mat 7:23 Then I will say to them, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people!'

    He never prayed for Judas.

    Joh 17:2 For you gave him authority over all people, so that he might give eternal life to all those you gave him.
    Joh 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.
    Joh 17:8 I gave them the message that you gave me, and they received it; they know that it is true that I came from you, and they believe that you sent me.
    Joh 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those you gave me, for they belong to you.

    God can use anyone to fulfill His plans. It can be believers and unbelievers. Judas is an example of an unbeliever used.

    Lastly we know why Judas did it, because he did not believe he was prey for Satan.

    Joh 13:27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, "Hurry and do what you must!"
    But in the middle of the road where there is a balanced understanding... he is the only one lost. Jesus can't say he was lost, if he was never given to Him.
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  4. #334
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    Re: Is Christ Mediator to all Mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    But in the middle of the road where there is a balanced understanding... he is the only one lost. Jesus can't say he was lost, if he was never given to Him.
    Or that the father didn't give Judas to Him. Jesus said "none you have given to me have been lost, except Judas".

    But then we have another passage that states Judas was a devil.

    And finally, when Judas "repented" with wordly sorrow, he did so to the priest. I am not sure he ever saw Jesus as God. To me, Judas spiritual walk can be confusing.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Is Christ Mediator to all Mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    But in the middle of the road where there is a balanced understanding... he is the only one lost. Jesus can't say he was lost, if he was never given to Him.
    Why can't He say he was lost? All not given are lost and Jesus knew he was not given. Also what about those in v66?

    Jesus spoke to His disciples and they would have thought that they were saved, because they were chosen by Him. Jesus made it clear that salvation is only by believing in Him as is the will of His Father and therefore would He emphasized that Judas was lost because of unbelief and not because he was given to Him and lost by Him.

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    Re: Is Christ Mediator to all Mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Why can't He say he was lost? All not given are lost and Jesus knew he was not given. Also what about those in v66?

    Jesus spoke to His disciples and they would have thought that they were saved, because they were chosen by Him. Jesus made it clear that salvation is only by believing in Him as is the will of His Father and therefore would He emphasized that Judas was lost because of unbelief and not because he was given to Him and lost by Him.
    Let me ask a question before I can address this in the center of the road and not from a ditch... who are given God's supernatural power to heal and cast out demons while they proclaim the Kingdom of God?
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  7. #337
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    Re: Is Christ Mediator to all Mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Or that the father didn't give Judas to Him. Jesus said "none you have given to me have been lost, except Judas".

    But then we have another passage that states Judas was a devil.

    And finally, when Judas "repented" with wordly sorrow, he did so to the priest. I am not sure he ever saw Jesus as God. To me, Judas spiritual walk can be confusing.
    Very confusing. Especially when he did the work of God supernaturally by the power given to all 12 disciples.
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  8. #338
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    Re: Is Christ Mediator to all Mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Let me ask a question before I can address this in the center of the road and not from a ditch... who are given God's supernatural power to heal and cast out demons while they proclaim the Kingdom of God?
    Nobody. The power is in the Lord. We are vessels used.

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    Re: Is Christ Mediator to all Mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    I do not see where it say anything different than what I said. Believers are part of the world, and part of the world might be saved.
    Circular reasoning.... The elect are part of the world...yes. But so are the non elect. The gift is offered so all might be saved.

  10. #340
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    Re: Is Christ Mediator to all Mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Nobody. The power is in the Lord.
    So, can I conclude from your answer that the 12 disciples, are "nobody's" empowered by God's supernatural power to heal and cast out demons while proclaiming the Kingdom is come?

    If that conclusion is wrong, then please explain your answer so I can come to the conclusion you want me to come too.
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  11. #341
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    Re: Is Christ Mediator to all Mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Circular reasoning.... The elect are part of the world...yes. But so are the non elect. The gift is offered so all might be saved.
    AND when God says that He desires that NONE perish, He's not compromising His sovereignty/righteousness/holiness by selecting only some in the world.
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  12. #342
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    Re: Is Christ Mediator to all Mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Circular reasoning.... The elect are part of the world...yes. But so are the non elect. The gift is offered so all might be saved.
    Agree, but we will differ on the meaning of all, I think. In your sentence I understand it as all kinds of people, not all individually.

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    Re: Is Christ Mediator to all Mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    AND when God says that He desires that NONE perish, He's not compromising His sovereignty/righteousness/holiness by selecting only some in the world.
    Him electing some to be saved does not compromise this desire if understood in context.

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    Re: Is Christ Mediator to all Mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    So, can I conclude from your answer that the 12 disciples, are "nobody's" empowered by God's supernatural power to heal and cast out demons while proclaiming the Kingdom is come?

    If that conclusion is wrong, then please explain your answer so I can come to the conclusion you want me to come too.
    I do not know if you saw I edited it. We are vessels used. The fact that we can be used do not have a bearing on our status as being believers, although I would think that believers would be used more. Look at Mat 7 again.

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    Re: Is Christ Mediator to all Mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Very confusing. Especially when he did the work of God supernaturally by the power given to all 12 disciples.
    Yea... but I am not sure he was ever saved nor am I sure he was not saved. Many will say in that day "Lord, Lord did we not do miracles in your name... but He will say 'Depart from me... I never knew you'"

    If Jesus never knew them, they were never saved. But they did miracles in His name.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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