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Thread: Interesting Connections

  1. #181
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    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Actually no nothing in 2 Thes 2 Connects to Daniel 7, Paul doesn't mention a Horn he doesn't mention him persecuting the Saints, he doesn't mention the times times and half a time ect. This passage 2 Thes 2 more closely connects with Daniel 8 and Daniel 11 both who involve a King who desecrates a temple and exalts himself above God.


    If I were to say the exact same thing you did here, I would be contradicting myself. I fully agree 2 Thess 2 connects with Dan 8 and 11. The same period of time you are referring to in Dan 8 and 11, it is this same TTHT we're discussing here, IOW this 42 month reign of the beast in Rev 13. You're taking some of these things too literally. And by doing so you will never be in agreement with the texts in question. There won't be any literal temple in Jerusalem involved in any of this. But if there is supposed to be, you would think someone would have already built this temple by now, or were at least in the construction phase of it by now. Some of these things have to be spiritually discerned, I would think. Not everything is meant to be taken literal when it comes to prophecy.

  2. #182
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    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    If I were to say the exact same thing you did here, I would be contradicting myself. I fully agree 2 Thess 2 connects with Dan 8 and 11. The same period of time you are referring to in Dan 8 and 11, it is this same TTHT we're discussing here, IOW this 42 month reign of the beast in Rev 13.
    Well we agree here.


    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    You're taking some of these things too literally. And by doing so you will never be in agreement with the texts in question. There won't be any literal temple in Jerusalem involved in any of this. But if there is supposed to be, you would think someone would have already built this temple by now, or were at least in the construction phase of it by now. Some of these things have to be spiritually discerned, I would think. Not everything is meant to be taken literal when it comes to prophecy.
    Sorry i don't know how i can't take these things literally, their are people in this world right now Actively working to build a Temple, why shouldn't i believe they plan to succeed? That just defy all logic in my head.

    What to you is going to stop the people in Israel right now who want to build a temple from actually building a temple? There are asking world leaders like trump and Putin they have already drawn up the plans ect.

    Yet your argument in light of all this is naw they will fail because Paul was speaking "spiritually" about a temple, it just defy the things i see IRL(in Real life) atm.

  3. #183

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    The fact is the bible tells you where he got his Rapture doctrine the fact that you don't want to accept it but rather Go with what you think about What Paul was thinking about Daniel 7 shows you don't really care about the truth you just really want Daniel 7 to be the source of Pauls rapture doctrine even if its not supported by scholarship or by the Bible itself. In which case once more believe what you wish. 2 Timothy 4:3.
    I've said my peace in this thread. Perhaps we're getting too far off topic?

  4. #184
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    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I've said my peace in this thread. Perhaps we're getting too far off topic?
    Fair enough i will repost what i said on the Relevant thread =)

  5. #185
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    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Why would i need to Cloud the Issue, your doctrine is one of the most disputed in history and even pre-dates the Church as i showed with what the Sadducees believed. The majority of Church history(Largely Amil) also disputes your doctrine as they believe in a General Resurrection of both the Righteous and the Wicked.

    The fact is nothing in 1 Cor 15 places the Rapture at the Ressurection at his coming. It places the rapture at the *Last trump*. Which if we agree(just for this argument) is the 7th trumpet, then Rev 12:5 would be the rapture not Rev 20:4 8 chapters later.

    Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    When does the Trumpet sound? In Rev 11:15 so when is the rapture? Rev 12:5.

    I also want to throw out this passage just for kicks

    Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

    20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

    21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

    Notice this passage clearly places the Resurrection *BEFORE* the Lord *cometh* to punish the inhabitants of Earth. He resurrects them tells them to Hide and THEN he *Comes* to punish the inhabitants of Earth
    I see you are clouding the issue. You mention the Sadducees, you mention history. But your analysis of the bible wording is incorrect:
    I quoted this verse from 1 Corinthians 15: ""all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.""
    When he comes, means when Jesus comes. That is when the resurrection occurs, how then can you say "nothing in 1 Cor 15 places the Rapture at the Ressurection at his coming" And later in the same chapter the rapture is placed at the same time as this same resurrection as per your quote of verse 51-52. So I'm not sure why you quoting a verse that clearly supports my position that the rapture and the resurrection of the righteous occur on the same day that the dead rise incorruptible. Unless you believe in two resurrections in 1 Corinthians 15?

    And your quote from Isaiah 26 confirms this resurrection on the day of the Lord, so I'm not sure why you feel that quote helps your argument.

    So you are saying a lot, but just not dealing with the facts that 1 Corinthians 15 describes a resurrection "when he comes", and a rapture when the dead rise, placing the rapture at the second coming.

  6. #186
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    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I see you are clouding the issue. You mention the Sadducees, you mention history.
    Correct because you claim your view is correct. Which is fine i'm just offering a different point of View.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    But your analysis of the bible wording is incorrect:
    I would say the same for you're clearly missing some Key points.

    You refuse to acknowledge there are Multiple Resurrections (AN ORDER) and then Assume the Second one (At His Coming) includes a rapture - Since it is A Resurrection of those who Belong to Christ. (At his Coming)



    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I quoted this verse from 1 Corinthians 15: ""all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.""
    When he comes, means when Jesus comes.
    Like i said your ignoring the First Resurrection in this passage and Focusing on the *When he Comes*.

    It clearly says *all will be made alive* so these Resurrection are Future.

    So we have 3 i don't place the Rapture at the Resurrection at his coming - I place the Rapture at the Last trump which is one of the Resurrections
    -
    First Fruits.


    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    That is when the resurrection occurs, how then can you say "nothing in 1 Cor 15 places the Rapture at the Resurrection at his coming"
    That is when ONE Resurrection occurs, it is the Resurrection of [Those who belong to Him] these people don't get Raptured he's on Earth Raising them up from their Graves.


    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    And later in the same chapter the rapture is placed at the same time as this same resurrection as per your quote of verse 51-52.
    Once more prove its the *Resurrection* at his coming, and not the One at the Last Trumpet?? Paul clearly says there is an [ORDER] in which the Dead will be Made Alive.

    First Fruits - Those In Christ - I believe -the Rapture is included in this one-
    Coming - Those who Belong to Christ
    End- Everyone one else.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    So I'm not sure why you quoting a verse that clearly supports my position that the rapture and the resurrection of the righteous occur on the same day that the dead rise incorruptible.
    It doesn't support your position its like you don't understand what you already agreed on and Jump back and Forth, your argument is based on the Idea that their is one Resurrection at one time and that's it - This is clearly not- What Paul was teaching. [But every man in his own order]



    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Unless you believe in two resurrections in 1 Corinthians 15?
    Pretty sure we already Agreed there are 3.

    This is where you seem Confused Paul clearly says there is an (ORDER) which means we need to place at which Ressurection the Rapture Happens.

    Paul Clearly Tells US.

    1 Corinthians 15:50+ Is clearly about *THE BRETHERN* Those IN Chirst.

    He even mentions this.

    But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    I believe the Church is a part of the First Fruits Resurrection and they are Raised with Christ, in that *Order*.

    I Believe Christ the First Fruits is a Resurrection-

    Who you believe is part of that Resurrection is up for Debate?

    Some believe This is Jesus Alone-
    Some Believe This is Jesus in the Past with the OT Saints- Matthew 27:52

    IOW i put the Rapture at the Last Trump and believe there are multiple Resurrections. 3 to be exact

    I believe the Church is Raised with Christ- because the bible says

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    And your quote from Isaiah 26 confirms this resurrection on the day of the Lord, so I'm not sure why you feel that quote helps your argument.
    I was making a separate Point tbh


    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    So you are saying a lot, but just not dealing with the facts that 1 Corinthians 15 describes a resurrection "when he comes", and a rapture when the dead rise, placing the rapture at the second coming.
    Yes it describes a Resurrection when he comes, it doesn't say the rapture happens at that specific Resurrection. It clearly says the rapture is tied to the last trump, your the one ignoring this for some reason...

  7. #187

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Correct because you claim your view is correct. Which is fine i'm just offering a different point of View.

    I would say the same for you're clearly missing some Key points.

    You refuse to acknowledge there are Multiple Resurrections (AN ORDER) and then Assume the Second one (At His Coming) includes a rapture - Since it is A Resurrection of those who Belong to Christ. (At his Coming)



    Like i said your ignoring the First Resurrection in this passage and Focusing on the *When he Comes*.

    It clearly says *all will be made alive* so these Resurrection are Future.

    So we have 3 i don't place the Rapture at the Resurrection at his coming - I place the Rapture at the Last trump which is one of the Resurrections
    -
    First Fruits.


    That is when ONE Resurrection occurs, it is the Resurrection of [Those who belong to Him] these people don't get Raptured he's on Earth Raising them up from their Graves.


    Once more prove its the *Resurrection* at his coming, and not the One at the Last Trumpet?? Paul clearly says there is an [ORDER] in which the Dead will be Made Alive.

    First Fruits - Those In Christ - I believe -the Rapture is included in this one-
    Coming - Those who Belong to Christ
    End- Everyone one else.

    It doesn't support your position its like you don't understand what you already agreed on and Jump back and Forth, your argument is based on the Idea that their is one Resurrection at one time and that's it - This is clearly not- What Paul was teaching. [But every man in his own order]



    Pretty sure we already Agreed there are 3.

    This is where you seem Confused Paul clearly says there is an (ORDER) which means we need to place at which Ressurection the Rapture Happens.

    Paul Clearly Tells US.

    1 Corinthians 15:50+ Is clearly about *THE BRETHERN* Those IN Chirst.

    He even mentions this.

    But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    I believe the Church is a part of the First Fruits Resurrection and they are Raised with Christ, in that *Order*.

    I Believe Christ the First Fruits is a Resurrection-

    Who you believe is part of that Resurrection is up for Debate?

    Some believe This is Jesus Alone-
    Some Believe This is Jesus in the Past with the OT Saints- Matthew 27:52

    IOW i put the Rapture at the Last Trump and believe there are multiple Resurrections. 3 to be exact

    I believe the Church is Raised with Christ- because the bible says

    I was making a separate Point tbh


    Yes it describes a Resurrection when he comes, it doesn't say the rapture happens at that specific Resurrection. It clearly says the rapture is tied to the last trump, your the one ignoring this for some reason...
    1 Cor 15.22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

    There is a general resurrection at the end of the Millennium, and there is a first resurrection at the 2nd Coming. Christ is the firstborn from the dead, the firstfruits of Christian resurrection. There are not 3 general resurrections. There are only 2, the 1st resurrection and the 2nd resurrection. The 1st resurrection is the reward of the saints and the return of deceased saints with Christ when he comes to establish his Kingdom. The 2nd resurrection takes place at the end of Millennium and includes all the saints of the Millennium and all of the wicked of all time.

    In the attempt to justify a Pretrib Doctrine reference is made to statements and visions of resurrections which do not specify 3 resurrections. Just positioning them in a sequence does not automatically make them chronological or ordered in a set of 3. For example, finding that the man child is "caught up to heaven" in Rev 12 and takes place in Revelation before Rev 20, the "first resurrection," does not explicitly say that we have here two general resurrections given in a chronological sequence.

    In order to establish a biblical doctrine legitimately you must have explicit doctrinal statements. Christian or pseudo-Christian cults like to take biblical parables and apocalyptic symbols and read into them what they want to believe. We need to do better than that.

    The identity of the "man child" is hotly debated for this very reason, that symbols do not have an explicit definition. What they represent must come from other related passages, or from the greater context, that provides explicitly stated meaning. The "man child" does not in the least suggest a Rapture of the Church. Rather, the greater context of this passage in Rev 12 suggests a scenario familiar to those who have read the Eden story. The Woman, the promised "seed of the woman," the "man child," and the Serpent are all there. The "seed of the woman" is identified explicitly as Christ in other Scriptures.

  8. #188
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    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    1 Cor 15.22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

    There is a general resurrection at the end of the Millennium, and there is a first resurrection at the 2nd Coming. Christ is the firstborn from the dead, the firstfruits of Christian resurrection. There are not 3 general resurrections. There are only 2, the 1st resurrection and the 2nd resurrection. The 1st resurrection is the reward of the saints and the return of deceased saints with Christ when he comes to establish his Kingdom. The 2nd resurrection takes place at the end of Millennium and includes all the saints of the Millennium and all of the wicked of all time. In the attempt to justify a Pretrib Doctrine reference is made to statements and visions of resurrections which do not specify 3 resurrections. Just positioning them in a sequence does not automatically make them chronological or ordered in a set of 3. For example, finding that the man child is "caught up to heaven" in Rev 12 and takes place in Revelation before Rev 20, the "first resurrection," does not explicitly say that we have here two general resurrections given in a chronological sequence.
    In order to establish a biblical doctrine legitimately you must have explicit doctrinal statements. Christian or pseudo-Christian cults like to take biblical parables and apocalyptic symbols and read into them what they want to believe. We need to do better than that.
    The identity of the "man child" is hotly debated for this very reason, that symbols do not have an explicit definition. What they represent must come from other related passages, or from the greater context, that provides explicitly stated meaning. The "man child" does not in the least suggest a Rapture of the Church. Rather, the greater context of this passage in Rev 12 suggests a scenario familiar to those who have read the Eden story. The Woman, the promised "seed of the woman," the "man child," and the Serpent are all there. The "seed of the woman" is identified explicitly as Christ in other Scriptures.
    Sorry not sure who claimed there were multiple General Resurrections because i didn't the wicked only get Raised at one of the Resurrections but there are clearly righteous people that participate in all 3(since only the righteous will live again).And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. clearly some people in this group do have their names written in the book of Life.

    You interpretation of Rev i disagree with as a whole, also i don't believe the identity of the Man-child is hotly debated.

  9. #189

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Sorry not sure who claimed there were multiple General Resurrections because i didn't the wicked only get Raised at one of the Resurrections but there are clearly righteous people that participate in all 3(since only the righteous will live again).And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. clearly some people in this group do have their names written in the book of Life.

    You interpretation of Rev i disagree with as a whole, also i don't believe the identity of the Man-child is hotly debated.
    You can believe what you want, but I've heard two views over the last several decades. One view, and I think the major view, sees the Man-Child as Christ. Another view, and one that I heard from Watchman Nee's books, is that the Man-Child is a company of overcoming believers, who are caught up to heaven in a Pretrib Rapture. As much as I like Watchman Nee and his writings, I disagree with him on this. I agree with the conventional view that the Man-Child is Christ.

  10. #190
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    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You can believe what you want, but I've heard two views over the last several decades. One view, and I think the major view, sees the Man-Child as Christ. Another view, and one that I heard from Watchman Nee's books, is that the Man-Child is a company of overcoming believers, who are caught up to heaven in a Pretrib Rapture. As much as I like Watchman Nee and his writings, I disagree with him on this. I agree with the conventional view that the Man-Child is Christ.
    I mean that's Fair so i Suggest a Proposal you present the Evidence for the Idea that Rev 12 is speaking about Christ.

    I'll present a Case from 1 Corinthians 15 to show Paul was speaking about the the Birth of The Church- at the 7th trumpet using the Same-Child birthing Imagery that John shows in Rev 12 and people can decide what they want. I will try to stick in the Context of Resurrection or the Birth.

  11. #191

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I mean that's Fair so i Suggest a Proposal you present the Evidence for the Idea that Rev 12 is speaking about Christ.

    I'll present a Case from 1 Corinthians 15 to show Paul was speaking about the the Birth of The Church- at the 7th trumpet using the Same-Child birthing Imagery that John shows in Rev 12 and people can decide what they want. I will try to stick in the Context of Resurrection or the Birth.
    In more recent times, from ICR...

    https://www.icr.org/article/8278/
    Although the whole vision is richly symbolic, the figure of the man child clearly refers to Jesus Christ, because it is He alone who must eventually rule all nations “with a rod of iron” (Revelation 19:15). Thus, the symbolic “woman” must suggest His human mother, Mary, but also Eve, the “mother of all living” (Genesis 3:20), for in His human birth, the Son of God became also “the Son of man” (Acts 7:56; Revelation 1:13). The vision, in fact, dramatizes the long warfare between the great dragon (i.e., Satan—Revelation 12:9) and the seed of the woman (Genesis 3:15).

    In ancient times, Victorinus...

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.vi.ii.xii.html
    The woman clothed with the sun, and having the moon under her feet, and wearing a crown of twelve stars upon her head, and travailing in her pains, is the ancient Church of fathers, and prophets, and saints, and apostles,2298 which had the groans and torments of its longing until it saw that Christ, the fruit of its people according to the flesh long promised to it, had taken flesh out of the selfsame people....
    “And the dragon stood before the woman who was beginning to bring forth, that, when she had brought forth, he might devour her child.”] The red dragon standing and desiring to devour her child when she had brought him forth, is the devil,—to wit, the traitor angel, who thought that the perishing of all men would be alike by death; but He, who was not born of seed, owed nothing to death: wherefore he could not devour Him—that is, detain Him in death—for on the third day He rose again. Finally, also, and before He suffered, he approached to tempt Him as man; but when he found that He was not what he thought Him to be, he departed from Him, even till the time. Whence it is here said:—

    5. “And she brought forth a son, who begins to rule all nations with a rod of iron.”] The rod of iron is the sword of persecution.

    “I saw that all men withdrew from his abodes.”] That is, the good will be removed, flying from persecution.2300

    “And her son was caught up to God, and to His throne.”] We read also in the Acts of the Apostles that He was caught up to God’s throne, just as speaking with the disciples He was caught up to heaven.

  12. #192
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    Re: Interesting Connections

    My case is simple Paul clearly Tells us what Prophesy will be Brought to Pass at the Rapture. I will break what he says into Points and The Cross Reference he uses.

    He says
    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,

    1. We have the Kingdom of God being inherited
    2. We have a Change of both the Living are the dead after the dead are Raised
    3. We Have Child-Birth imagery

    Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
    The Cross Reference Hosea 13:14

    Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? This Reference here Refers to Hosea 13:14 Luckily for me This is Clearly a Child-Birth Reference.

    Which is where i establish my Premise

    The First Resurrection in the Book of Rev is actually a Child Birth and John uses this imagery to identify the Rapture of the Church or the Man-Child in Rev 12.


    Hosea 13:14
    The iniquity of Ephraim(ISRAEL) is bound up; his sin is kept in store. ;The pangs of childbirth come for him(Israel), but he(Israel) is an unwise son, for at the right time he(Israel) does not present himself(Israel) at the opening of the womb. I shall ransom them(the Church) from the power of Sheol; I shall redeem them(The Church) from Death. O Death, where are your plagues? O Sheol, where is your sting? Compassion is hidden from my eyes

    Well this Gives us a Little Information Are there Any Cross References to Hosea 13:14? Well Rev 12 is clearly one.

    She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule[a] all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne

    There are many Cross References about the Great Distress that will Come Upon Jacob- Of Course including some of the Ones we will study such as Isaiah 26,33,37,54 and 66 also Jermiah 31, Micah 4:9, Micah 5:3

    How About Cross References to What Israel will give Birth to? Yes.


    Isaiah 26 says the *Wind* once more we have the Dead Coming to life
    Isaiah 33 Says Israel Gives birth to Chaff
    Isaiah 37:3 Speaks of Israel giving birth to her Children
    Isaiah 54:1 Speaks of The Barron one Giving birth to her Children
    Isaiah 66- Says Israel Gives birth to A Child- A Land- A Nation- And Multiple Children
    Rev 12 Says She gives birth to -The Manchild-


    Also Does Jesus say anything about Birth?

    Yes Jesus says-
    “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.c 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wine blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”Jesus Just like Paul is talking about the Kingdom of God. Both tell us specific things about the Kingdom of God

    Does Paul quote anything from these Passages? Well yes Paul quotes Isaiah 54:1 in Regards to the Church. Galatians 4:26

    But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written
    “Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband.”

    Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.



    So lets Review What we learned according to the Words of Jesus and Paul about the Kingdom of God Mentioned in Rev 12:10.
    “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers[a] has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God

    To Enter the Kingdom of God

    1.Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God but the dead will rise.
    2.Must be born of the Spirit to Enter and will have a Heavenly body.
    3. They will be like the Spirit and it happens at the last trump(Heavenly Bodies).

    Now lets focus in on The passages that Fit our Context.

    Lets being with Isaiah 26 which once more connects clearly to Hosea 13 and Therefore 1 Cor 15 and Rev 12.

    O LORD, in distress they(Israel) sought you; they poured out a whispered prayer when your discipline(GT) was upon them.
    Like a pregnant woman who writhes and cries out in her pangs when she is near to giving birth, so were we because of you(Israel), O LORD; we(Israel) were pregnant, we writhed, but we have given birth to wind. We have accomplished no deliverance in the earth, and the inhabitants of the world have not fallen.

    The Bible says Israel Has Given birth to the *WIND* or the Ruach(SPIRIT) Israel has given birth To the *SPIRT* Which of Course reminds us of the Words of Jesus in John 3 The wind[e] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

    Can we make any more Connections Between the Words of Jesus and this Passage in Regards to the Rapture?

    Why yes- Everyone agrees this passage is about the rapture-

    John 14 In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

    Well we find something Similar in Isaiah 26 that happens right after the Rapture- According to 1 Corth 15 and Hosea 13 once more in the Context of Resurrection

    Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light,and the earth will give birth to the dead. Come, my people, enter your rooms, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by. For behold, the LORD is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity,and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.

    Also we can zoom in on Isaiah 66 which is actually the Cross reference for Rev 12 and where the Term Man-Child is actually used

    Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

    Here the bible clearly says she's bringing forth Children and a Nation.

    So its quite Clear though the Words of Jesus Paul and all the OT prophets that they quoted that the time of Jacobs trouble will come for Israel -after- They have Given birth to the Man-Child, and According to Isaiah 66 the Man-Child is a Nation of Many Children born (according to Galations 4:16 and Isaiah 54) to the Jerusalem(in Heaven) the Mother of the Church. Who then will becomes unclean according to Leviticus 12 for 7 Days after birth and comes down from Heaven.
    Lamentations 2
    How the Lord in his anger has set the daughter of Zion under a cloud! He has cast down from heaven to earth the splendor of Israel; he has not remembered his footstool in the day of his anger.

    The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If a woman conceives and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days. As at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean. 3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. 4 Then she shall continue for thirty-three days in the blood of her purifying. She shall not touch anything holy, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying are completed.

    And the priest shall make atonement for her, and she shall be clean.”

    Also this is pretty well summed up in Micah 5

    [B]Now muster your troops, O daughter of troops; siege is laid against us; with a rod they strike the judge of Israel on the cheek.
    But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days. Therefore he shall give them up until the time when she who is in labor has given birth; then the rest of his brothers shall return to the people of Israel. And he shall stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God. And they shall dwell secure, for now he shall be great to the ends of the earth. And he shall be their peace.

    Conclusion- According to Jesus and Paul who quoted from Hosea, Isaiah, Micah - The Rapture and Resurrection of the Church is likened to a ChildBirth- We find this Imagery consistent with what happens in the story of Rev 12- With a women giving birth to a Man-Child(nation ect) Who rules with a Rod of Iron (Rev 2:27) and right after we see that the Brethren are in Heaven for the Kingdom of God(Rev 12:10) all of this is clearly the fulfillment of Hosea 13:14-15 the passage that will be brought to pass According to Paul when the Rapture happens as he states in 1 Corinthians 15.

    My point is simple the first Resurrection or the Resurrection of the Church according to Paul is clearly connected to Child-Birth Imagery! John clearly Uses this Imagery to speak about the Rapture of the Church.


    If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

    2 Cor- For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on[a] we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

    Finally i want to End with John 1

    The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.

    But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

    We Shall be born of God at the Rapture.

    They have conquered him(THE DRAGON) by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them!

    But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly[a] of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

    See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire.

    To the assembly[a] of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven
    Last edited by Jesuslovesus; May 3rd 2017 at 04:17 PM.

  13. #193
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    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In more recent times, from ICR...

    https://www.icr.org/article/8278/
    Although the whole vision is richly symbolic, the figure of the man child clearly refers to Jesus Christ, because it is He alone who must eventually rule all nations “with a rod of iron” (Revelation 19:15). Thus, the symbolic “woman” must suggest His human mother, Mary, but also Eve, the “mother of all living” (Genesis 3:20), for in His human birth, the Son of God became also “the Son of man” (Acts 7:56; Revelation 1:13). The vision, in fact, dramatizes the long warfare between the great dragon (i.e., Satan—Revelation 12:9) and the seed of the woman (Genesis 3:15).
    Not sure why you quoted that Article it clearly supports my position.. He clearly states

    Quote

    In the vision, the “man child” will have been “caught up” (i.e., “raptured”) to heaven, and the dragon and his angels “cast out” to earth (Revelation 12:5-9). But when Christ returns from heaven, all believers, living and dead, will also be “caught up” to meet Him in the air, and thus may well be included in the man child of the great “sign.”

    End of quote.

  14. #194

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Rev 12.2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

    In this scenario, the Woman, the Serpent, and the male child are all present. This is a flash back to Genesis, where Eve and the Serpent had an exchange, and Eve was promised "seed" that would "bruise the serpent's head."

    Gen 3.15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” 16 To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

    The woman delivers an offspring that will crush the serpent. That is Christ. Christ has his "heel struck." Furthermore, the woman suffers the pains of childbirth. Again, that reflects the pain of Christ himself, as well as the pain of the woman. As Christ has to suffer so must the woman suffer.

    And who does the woman represent here? She represents the Church, the people of God, who struggle to prepare the way for Christ's Kingdom. In bringing forth a King who has suffered, the Church also must suffer.

    And who does the "husband" of the woman represent? He also represents Christ, because even as the woman has sinned, Christ, the "husband," steps in for her, and overrules her failures. That is, Christ intercedes for the Church in our imperfections so that we succeed in preparing the way for Christ's Kingdom.

    Rev 12.4 The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

    As the serpent stood opposed to the woman's offspring so the dragon stands in front of the woman about to give birth to Christ. But the offspring succeeds, as in the story of Eden, in establishing his rule in the coming Kingdom. Christians may rule with Christ in his coming Kingdom. And we may sit on our own thrones together with Christ sitting on his throne. But the promised Messiah is unique, just as the offspring of the woman was to be unique.

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