Page 2 of 13 FirstFirst 12345678910111213 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 194

Thread: Interesting Connections

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    6,043
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The specific place where you are making errors is Rev 11. The beast does not arise from the bottomless pit at the end of 1260 days, the mention of the bottomless pit at that stage is to define which beast, not to determine the timing of it's rise.
    If the 7th Trumpet/Third Woe is "the time for the dead to be judged", and it "soon" follows the killing of the two witnesses by the beast, then naturally the beast has risen from the pit at this point. That it says "the beast which rises from the pit will [then]..." is further confirmation.

    The second error you make with Rev 11 is equating the beast with the dragon. They are two separate entities with two separate roles in Revelation. The dragon is Satan who is THROWN DOWN at the beginning of the TTHT according to Rev 12. Yet the beast rises from the pit. The beast representing a final empire and/or the antichrist. Sure the dragon gives the beast power, but the one is thrown down to earth and the other rises up from the pit.
    I see this as complimentary to my perspective. Both the devil and beast's fates are tied (notice they both also go out to gather the nations for battle after release in another "parallel vision" IMO). Additionally, if my equating the TTHT/1260 to the thousand years is correct, then the "throwing down of Satan to Earth" coincides with binding him in to bottomless pit. This could explain why the beast is never mentioned to have been bound in the pit at all - because it was conceived by the dragon in the pit.

    Another error you make is with judgments. There are multiple judgments. The destruction of Jerusalem was a major judgment. At the second coming there will be at least THREE MAJOR judgments.
    I read it as one judgment.

    • The TTHT/1260 is followed by the 7th Trumpet "time for the dead to be judged."
    • The thousand years is followed by "hades gave up the dead in it and they were judged."
    • Daniel 12 says "many in the dust of the earth shall awake... some to life/shame" preceded by "TTHT."

    These are very clearly speaking of the same event.
    Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone.
    The Lord is at hand; do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
    And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Ph 4

  2. #17
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    2,225
    Blog Entries
    8

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah
    ... then everyone marvels when they are raised from the dead and ascend to meet God "in the air" (IMO) ...
    Ah, so the rapture IS mentioned in the book of Revelation.

    "After the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud." (Rev 11:11-12)
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    1,992

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Ah, so the rapture IS mentioned in the book of Revelation.
    Yea the Word rapture is even Used in the Book of Rev right after the blowing of the 7th trumpet(Rev 11:15) in Rev 12:5.

    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/12-5.htm

  4. #19

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Yea the Word rapture is even Used in the Book of Rev right after the blowing of the 7th trumpet(Rev 11:15) in Rev 12:5.

    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/12-5.htm
    Yep. And then verse 13 in the Young's Literal Translation says,

    "And when the dragon saw that he was cast forth to the earth, he pursued the woman who did bring [which had brought] forth the male [G730 - male/man http://biblehub.com/greek/730.htm ]" ['child' is not in this verse]


    However, I see this "dragon cast... to the earth" as happening at mid-trib, whereas the 6th Trumpet events occur after that point in time (and the "which had brought forth the male/man" occurring before both of those points in time ).

    I see the "[just before] 5th Trumpet" as being the mid-trib point.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pitt Meadows b.c.
    Posts
    2,989
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    I'm making this thread to show observations I have made recently which may be significant to your end-times considerations.

    A) The persecution of the saints lasts for "a time times and half a time" (TTHT): (Dan. 7:21-22, 25)

    B) The "dragon's war on the saints" occurs during the TTHT after being thrown down to Earth: (Rev. 12:13-14, 17)

    C) The TTHT and "1,260 days" are the same: (Rev. 12:6, 14)

    D) The TTHT/1,260 concludes with resurrection: (Dan. 12:1-2, 6-7) + (Rev. 11:3, 7, 11-12)

    E) The TTHT/1,260 concludes with judgment: (Rev. 11:3, 7, 11-12)* + (Rev. 11:15, 18) + (Dan. 7:21, 25-27)

    F) The "thousand years" concludes with resurrection and judgment: (Rev. 20:7, 10, 12, 15)

    G) The "thousand years" concludes with the release from the bottomless pit: (Rev. 20:7)

    H) The TTHT/1,260 concludes with the release from the bottomless pit: (Rev. 11:3, 7)

    My personal inferences based on the above notes:

    The TTHT/1260 days/"thousand years" are all identical. They describe a single time period from different perspectives as opposed to multiple time periods each with one perspective. They also end with the 7th Trumpet (see Rev. 11), which coincides with the Second Coming as mentioned by Paul's "last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15. The thousand years must end - rather than begin - with the return of Christ and our receiving the inheritance.



    Quick-look verses (ESV):

    A) As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.... He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. (Dan. 7:21-22, 25)

    B) And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.... Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (Rev. 12:13-14, 17)

    C) ...The woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.... she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time... (Rev. 12:6, 14)

    D) At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.... How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?” And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished. (Dan. 12:1-2, 6-7)

    • And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.... And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them.... But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. (Rev. 11:3, 7, 11-12)

    E) (*context in D•) Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”.... The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth. (Rev. 11:15, 18)

    • As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High.... they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.... But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end. (Dan. 7:21, 25-27)

    F) And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison.... and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur.... And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.... And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:7, 10, 12, 15)

    G) And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison... (Rev. 20:7)

    H) And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.... And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them... (Rev. 11:3, 7)
    Your right the 1000 years will end with the 2nd coming of Jesus but which 1000 years? The 1000 year reign which is different from the 1000 year binding.

    Satan’s 1000 year binding starts in Revelation 20:2 and ends in verse 7 when he is released. The 1000 year reign starts in Revelation 20:4 and ends in verse 12. Verse 5 tells us that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years has ended. The rest of the dead don’t come to life until after Satan is released to gather his armies to destroy Gods city and then is defeated and is cast into hell. So they are not the same time line.
    Last edited by marty fox; Apr 22nd 2017 at 10:42 PM.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Durban ,South Africa
    Posts
    5,730

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    If the 7th Trumpet/Third Woe is "the time for the dead to be judged", and it "soon" follows the killing of the two witnesses by the beast, then naturally the beast has risen from the pit at this point. That it says "the beast which rises from the pit will [then]..." is further confirmation.



    I see this as complimentary to my perspective. Both the devil and beast's fates are tied (notice they both also go out to gather the nations for battle after release in another "parallel vision" IMO). Additionally, if my equating the TTHT/1260 to the thousand years is correct, then the "throwing down of Satan to Earth" coincides with binding him in to bottomless pit. This could explain why the beast is never mentioned to have been bound in the pit at all - because it was conceived by the dragon in the pit.



    I read it as one judgment.

    The TTHT/1260 is followed by the 7th Trumpet "time for the dead to be judged."
    The thousand years is followed by "hades gave up the dead in it and they were judged."
    Daniel 12 says "many in the dust of the earth shall awake... some to life/shame" preceded by "TTHT."

    These are very clearly speaking of the same event.
    Reading Rev 20 your view of the 1000 years co-inciding with the TTHT contradicts Rev 20:

    1) You place the start of the thousand years together with the start of the TTHT. This would mean that the resurrection of the righteous occurs at the start of the TTHT. (They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) However Daniel 12 places the resurrection of the righteous at the end of the TTHT, not at the beginning. 1 Corinthians 15 also places the resurrection of the righteous at the second coming, not at the beginning of the TTHT. How do you explain this resurrection of the righteous and reigning of these resurrected righteous during the TTHT? Scripture says believers are persecuted, not reigning and resurrected then.

    2) He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
    If Satan is in the abyss during the TTHT and not deceiving the nations, this contradicts Rev 12 which shows that Satan is alive and well on earth for a period of wrath.

    3) You need to make up your mind whether the TTHT matches the full 1000 years, or merely the short period of Satan's wrath at the end of the 1000 years. Whichever way you decide, is full of inconsistencies.

  7. #22

    Re: Interesting Connections

    The TTHT/1260 days/"thousand years" are all identical.
    We know that from God's perspective, one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years are as one day. But trying to make 1,260 days (3 1/2 years) into 1,000 years will simply not work.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    15,747

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    [B]D) The TTHT/1,260 concludes with resurrection: (Dan. 12:1-2, 6-7) + (Rev. 11:3, 7, 11-12)
    Though mostly correct, not entirely correct.

    The following would have made D) more correct.

    The TTHT/1,260 concludes with resurrection: (Dan. 12:1-2, 6-7) + (Rev. 11:3, 7, 11-12) + (Rev. 20:4-6)

    Why did you neglect to mention that resurrection as well? Meaning the first resurrection of course. Could it be because if you had, it would have shown you to be incorrect? Which then proves you are pretty much incorrect about everything by placing the thousand years before the 2nd coming, rather than the other way around.


    Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


    Do you agree this 42 months leads to the 2nd coming?

    Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
    15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
    16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
    17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


    Do you agree, until a beast first rises up out of the sea, another coming up out of the earth, Revelation 13:14-17 is not true until after these beasts have risen, one from the sea, and another coming up out of the earth?


    Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.


    Do you agree, until this happens first, Revelation 13:14-17 is not true as of yet? IOW, Revelation 13:14-17 can't get fulfilled until Revelation 13:3 is fulfilled first.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    6,043
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    How do you explain this resurrection of the righteous and reigning of these resurrected righteous during the TTHT? Scripture says believers are persecuted, not reigning and resurrected then.
    The first resurrection does not occur at the conclusion of TTHT/7th trumpet/second coming. This isn't a problem unless you are Premil - whose internal reactions to this conclusion aren't particularly relevant to me. I'm mostly focused on getting the timelines right, not adjusting the implications or worldviews. If the TTHT matches the thousand years timetable, whatever their images represent can be investigated with much less speculation. If a larger theory is accurate, then it will fit the timeline.

    You need to make up your mind whether the TTHT matches the full 1000 years
    No I don't, I didn't write the book, I'm just reading it and applying logic.

    The beast must rise from the bottomless pit prior to (or at) the TTHT conclusion, followed by the 7th Trumpet, which brings the judgment of the dead. So, the thousand years cannot begin at any point after TTHT/1260 has already concluded.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    The TTHT/1,260 concludes with resurrection: (Dan. 12:1-2, 6-7) + (Rev. 11:3, 7, 11-12) + (Rev. 20:4-6)

    Why did you neglect to mention that resurrection as well? Meaning the first resurrection of course.
    Point D is about TTHT/1260, not the thousand years - F is for the thousand years. I didn't include it in F because the thousand years does not conclude with "the first resurrection". It does conclude with the resurrection and judgment of the dead which coincides with Rev. 11 and Dan. 12.

    Do you agree this 42 months leads to the 2nd coming?
    I don't see an issue with it being within or even another synonym for the TTHT/1260 war on the saints. The whole picture could also explain why the 6th bowl mentions "Behold I am coming (like a thief)" following the nations being gathered for the final battle, surely preceded by the release of the pit?
    Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone.
    The Lord is at hand; do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
    And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Ph 4

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Durban ,South Africa
    Posts
    5,730

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    The first resurrection does not occur at the conclusion of TTHT/7th trumpet/second coming. This isn't a problem unless you are Premil - whose internal reactions to this conclusion aren't particularly relevant to me. I'm mostly focused on getting the timelines right, not adjusting the implications or worldviews. If the TTHT matches the thousand years timetable, whatever their images represent can be investigated with much less speculation. If a larger theory is accurate, then it will fit the timeline.


    No I don't, I didn't write the book, I'm just reading it and applying logic.

    The beast must rise from the bottomless pit prior to (or at) the TTHT conclusion, followed by the 7th Trumpet, which brings the judgment of the dead. So, the thousand years cannot begin at any point after TTHT/1260 has already concluded.



    Point D is about TTHT/1260, not the thousand years - F is for the thousand years. I didn't include it in F because the thousand years does not conclude with "the first resurrection". It does conclude with the resurrection and judgment of the dead which coincides with Rev. 11 and Dan. 12.



    I don't see an issue with it being within or even another synonym for the TTHT/1260 war on the saints. The whole picture could also explain why the 6th bowl mentions "Behold I am coming (like a thief)" following the nations being gathered for the final battle, surely preceded by the release of the pit?
    The beast's release from the pit has to occur for the full 42 months, because this is when he has authority on earth according to Rev 13. Which is different to Satan's release. Rev 20 is clear Satan is bound in the pit at the beginning of the 1000 years, and released towards the end. So there remains no match between the beast's interaction with the pit, and Satan's interaction with the pit. So your attempts to relate the two do not work.

    Neither does the resurrection of the righteous fit in with your theory that the 1000 years is the 3.5 years.
    Rev 20 describes the resurrection of the righteous at the beginning of the 1000 years, yet Daniel 12 and 1 Corinthians 15 place the resurrection of the righteous at the end of the TTHT. So the two periods cannot match according to the bible, no matter how much you like your "larger world view" it is biblically incorrect. Premill or not, it is the bible that places the resurrection at the end of the TTHT period.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    6,043
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The beast's release from the pit has to occur for the full 42 months
    All it says is that the beast rises from the bottomless pit and the two witnesses are killed, which must occur at the TTHT conclusion. If the beast is being released then it was in the pit beforehand. We can't go further until it's established that the release and TTHT conclusion are simultaneous at minimum, which logically puts the beast in the pit prior to the TTHT conclusion.

    Rev 20 describes the resurrection of the righteous at the beginning of the 1000 years, yet Daniel 12 and 1 Corinthians 15 place the resurrection of the righteous at the end of the TTHT.
    • Dan 12 says both the resurrection and judgment of the dead happen at the end of TTHT.
    • Rev. 11 depicts both the resurrection and judgment of the dead at the end of TTHT.
    • Rev. 20 depicts both the resurrection and judgment of the dead at the end of the thousand years.
    • 1 Cor. 15 says we are raised/changed at the last trumpet, which is the 7th Trumpet at the end of TTHT.

    I don't know how I can communicate this simpler, I'm trying to format it as clearly as possible.
    Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone.
    The Lord is at hand; do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
    And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Ph 4

  12. #27

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    All it says is that the beast rises from the bottomless pit and the two witnesses are killed, which must occur at the TTHT conclusion.
    I hate to be repetitious here, but you've failed to prove the argument that the Beast even comes up out of the Bottomless Pit at the end of the 3.5 years! There is no question that the Beast is the one who has come up out of the Abyss. But placing his coming up from the Abyss at the end of the 3.5 years is *not* being said here!

    Rev 11.7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss* will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

    The phrase "the beast that comes up from the Abyss" is an identifier, and not the account of when this happens in real time. In other words, he is not coming up out of the Abyss at this stage in the narrative. At this stage in the narrative he is killing the 2 Witnesses. But it is not at this stage that he is rising up out of the Abyss.

    It's like saying Jesus, the one who died on the cross, is coming again. This does not mean that Jesus will die on the cross on the same day that he is coming again!

    Unless you can show that this passage is declaring the ascension of the Beast out of the Abyss *at the same time* that he kills the 2 Witnesses you are basing your argument on pure assumption and contradiction.

    And why is this contradictory? It is because the Beast is a common reference to the Antichrist, whose coming was well known from Dan 7, and didn't even require explanation. And we know Antichrist rules for 3.5 years, ie he doesn't appear at the end of the 3.5 years by rising up out of the Abyss at that time.

    There is a pattern here. You might say that Antichrist rules for 3.5 years and is wounded at the end of the 3.5 years and ascends out of the Abyss at that point. But it wouldn't be following the pattern.

    The pattern is that Satan falls from heaven (Rev 12.9). The star falls from heaven to open the door of the Abyss (Rev 9.1). The Beast rises from the sea and is worshiped because he has already "risen from the dead" (Rev 13.3).

    In other words, the Antichrist was "wounded" beforehand, and not at the end of his reign. He has therefore risen up out of the Abyss even before his 3.5 years reign begins.

    Satan persecutes the woman on earth for 3.5 years after he has fallen from heaven (Rev 12.6). The Beast persecutes the Church for 3.5 years after...

    1) he arose from the Abyss
    2) after he has recovered from his "fatal wound"
    3) after Satan determines to persecute the Church on earth

    There is absolutely no thought here that the Beast rises up from the Abyss at the end of the 3.5 years. Rather, he is the one who has already done this. Identifying him as the one who had already done this is what we are given--not the actual account of when it happens.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    6,043
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I hate to be repetitious here, but you've failed to prove the argument that the Beast even comes up out of the Bottomless Pit at the end of the 3.5 years! .... Rev 11.7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss* will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
    That's the verse I would cite. If you read "the beast that comes up from the Abyss will [then]..." as anything other than the beast coming up from the abyss at that time or prior, I don't think we can really have a productive dialogue unfortunately. There's no reason to give this qualifier unless the release is relevant to what's happening. I agree to disagree, but we can come at it from a different direction.

    You're not Durban, but I'll repost it:

    Dan 12 says both the resurrection and judgment of the dead happen at the end of TTHT.
    Rev. 11 depicts both the resurrection and judgment of the dead at the end of TTHT.
    Rev. 20 depicts both the resurrection and judgment of the dead at the end of the thousand years.
    1 Cor. 15 says we are raised/changed at the last trumpet, which is the 7th Trumpet at the end of TTHT.

    Can we agree on these points, individually?
    Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone.
    The Lord is at hand; do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
    And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Ph 4

  14. #29
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    2,225
    Blog Entries
    8

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah

    • Dan 12 says both the resurrection and judgment of the dead happen at the end of TTHT.
    • Rev. 11 depicts both the resurrection and judgment of the dead at the end of TTHT.
    • Rev. 20 depicts both the resurrection and judgment of the dead at the end of the thousand years.
    • 1 Cor. 15 says we are raised/changed at the last trumpet, which is the 7th Trumpet at the end of TTHT.

    Can we agree on these points, individually?
    Yup. Agreed on each point.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  15. #30

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    That's the verse I would cite. If you read "the beast that comes up from the Abyss will [then]..." as anything other than the beast coming up from the abyss at that time or prior, I don't think we can really have a productive dialogue unfortunately. There's no reason to give this qualifier unless the release is relevant to what's happening. I agree to disagree, but we can come at it from a different direction.

    You're not Durban, but I'll repost it:

    • Dan 12 says both the resurrection and judgment of the dead happen at the end of TTHT.
    • Rev. 11 depicts both the resurrection and judgment of the dead at the end of TTHT.
    • Rev. 20 depicts both the resurrection and judgment of the dead at the end of the thousand years.
    • 1 Cor. 15 says we are raised/changed at the last trumpet, which is the 7th Trumpet at the end of TTHT.

    Can we agree on these points, individually?
    Absolutely. I just think that if you're going to argue that the Beast rises up at the end of the 3.5 years you have to consider the context. You can't just *say* this is when the Beast rises up from the Abyss because the passage is not saying that. It may be logical to you, but in the broader context it is not logical to me.

    So I need something better than just your gut-sense that the Beast rises immediately before he kills. The emphasis is entirely on the killing--not on the rising. When he will rise is left to a broader context. And my arguments are based on that.

    Sure, we can agree to disagree, but I wanted to give you the broader context so you can recognize *why* I think the Beast cannot rise at this time. If he rises at the end of the 3.5 years, then he cannot have been the Antichrist who reigns for 3.5 years. And the Beast is identified as the Antichrist.

    There are alternative scenarios, but there's no sense in discussing them if you just want to rely on your gut-sense, and not the broader context. I have no wish to push a particular view on anybody.

    Yes, I do agree that the resurrection and judgment take place at the end of the 3.5 years. But I must add qualifiers. The *first* resurrection takes place at the end of the 3.5 years. And the judgment *against Antichrist* and any preliminary eternal judgment takes place at the end of the 3.5 years. Final judgment awaits the end of the Millennium.

    In some ways we are being judged even now. When we die we are judged again, for the whole of our lives. And when Christ comes there will be a tremendous judgment upon the earth, directed at the forces of Antichrist. This will involve the death of many people--many ungodly people, and some godly people as well who are collateral damage. The ungodly, at that time, will be judged at that time just as anybody who dies is immediately judged for what they did over the course of their lives.

    But final judgment is at the end of mortal existence, which happens after the Millennium. You probably are not wanting to believe in that? But Rev 20 talks about the 1000 year period after which final judgment takes place.

    Again, people will die at that time, in the battle against Magog, and the death of people means they will be judged for what they did in their lives. And it is at that time, the Scripture says, that all men will obtain their final reward, good or bad. We will then enter into our eternal inheritance, although at the first resurrection we may have already gotten there.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. 7th Trumpet & GWT Connections
    By Aviyah in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: Feb 7th 2015, 11:12 PM
  2. Please Help Maintaining connections....
    By Amos_with_goats in forum Christian Fellowship
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: Dec 20th 2014, 07:39 AM
  3. International Prayer Connections
    By Jude in forum Prayer
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Oct 11th 2014, 01:43 AM
  4. The Occult Connections of Westcott and Hort
    By northwye in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: Nov 1st 2011, 07:09 PM
  5. Interesting news. Not Earth Shattering, But Interesting.
    By Diggindeeper in forum Breaking News
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: Sep 9th 2011, 02:56 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •