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Thread: Interesting Connections

  1. #106

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    What does the NT have to say about that? I personally struggle finding any reference to a premill state of affairs that is inaugurated at his second coming.
    Well Jeff, I know you've heard the arguments. We probably just disagree. Again, the strength of my Premil is that it is the *literal* interpretation of the Millennium in Rev 20. It could be that it is meant to be symbolically interpreted--I just don't see why it shouldn't be taken literally? And the book itself warns us not to tamper with it. I'd rather stick to the literal and not take a chance on upsetting God!

    And the fact the Early Church in the area of Asia Minor, following the Apostle John, were Premil. Strong argument in favor of Premil.

    The strength of Amil is that it almost "owns" Church history. Why should God let an error persist so long if it is really in error? That also is a strong argument. Take your pick!

  2. #107
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    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Well Jeff, I know you've heard the arguments. We probably just disagree. Again, the strength of my Premil is that it is the *literal* interpretation of the Millennium in Rev 20. It could be that it is meant to be symbolically interpreted--I just don't see why it shouldn't be taken literally? And the book itself warns us not to tamper with it. I'd rather stick to the literal and not take a chance on upsetting God!

    And the fact the Early Church in the area of Asia Minor, following the Apostle John, were Premil. Strong argument in favor of Premil.

    The strength of Amil is that it almost "owns" Church history. Why should God let an error persist so long if it is really in error? That also is a strong argument. Take your pick!

    One thing I can't get my mind around with premil is what would be the purpose of a literal 1000 year reign for it to end so badly?

  3. #108
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    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    I agree.

    Rather , what is Paul getting at by suggesting Gods righteous judgment and eternal destruction happening on the day he comes to glorify all who have believed?
    Wow. I edited my post just a couple of minutes after I posted it saying I understood what you meant. Anyway, I agree with both of your last posts...kinda sorta.

    What's Paul getting at? Those who are in Christ will be raised and changed and He will destroy all who are not.
    After that the final judgement will be held.


    There's a Millennium in there somewhere. Whether it happens before the second coming or after and whether the final judgement is on the day of the second coming or not and when the new heaven and new earth come about are what the big debates about eh?
    Day by day, Oh Dear Lord
    Three things I pray
    To see thee more clearly
    Love thee more dearly
    Follow thee more nearly
    Day by day

  4. #109
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    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Well Jeff, I know you've heard the arguments.
    Yes indeed.

    With the many statements made in the NT about the second coming, one should then be able to see what kind of expectation the Apostles had regarding a millennium. If you think any one of those scriptures allude to premill in any way, then share it.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  5. #110
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    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post

    What's Paul getting at? Those who are in Christ will be raised and changed and He will destroy all who are not.
    After that the final judgement will be held.
    It seems to me that that would be the final judgment. Christ comes to render to everymen accordingly. The GWT is the time for judging everyone accordingly and righteously...by opening the book of those saved by his Amazing Grace.


    There's a Millennium in there somewhere. Whether it happens before the second coming or after and whether the final judgement is on the day of the second coming or not and when the new heaven and new earth come about are what the big debates about eh?
    Inddeed...and today is the day of salvation...we only have today to work it out and come to repentance before he comes.

    I am not willing to suggest to people that they may be an opportunity to be saved after his coming again. I preach urgency rather an opportunity for being complacent
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  6. #111

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    One thing I can't get my mind around with premil is what would be the purpose of a literal 1000 year reign for it to end so badly?
    I'm lost, what part of the Millennium Ends Badly? Clearly can't be as bad as the GT can it?

  7. #112
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    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    One thing I can't get my mind around with premil is what would be the purpose of a literal 1000 year reign for it to end so badly?
    You mean a major rebellion against God after a 1000 year of perfect government? Yeah, it does sound a bit odd doesnt it?
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
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    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    I'm just going to say it's figurative, you and everyone will disagree, and then I'll be repeating the OP as the case for why it's figurative, and we'll be back at square one. Then it will devolve into the 1,000th AM vs. PM thread and there won't be any dialogue over why TTHT, 1260, and Rev 20 have identical conclusions.

    "... the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants ... and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."
    And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt
    And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done
    An hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out

    If these were in the same book and chapter I doubt anyone would be trying to say they aren't talking about the same thing.
    Hi Aviyah, sure I probably would disagree on your figurative view of the verses in question. But at the moment you haven't explained enough for me to know how logical your figurative view is are and whether you have symbolic precedent for any symbols you may see there. Maybe your figurative view regarding Rev 20:4-6 if expressed would convince some people.

    So once again you decline to give any real explanation about what is clearly an earlier resurrection that just does not fit into your paradigm at all. Maybe you now understand why you are spoken about in the third person, my intention of doing so was to give the weaknesses in your view some visibility and discussion despite you not wanting to discuss them.

  9. #114

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    One thing I can't get my mind around with premil is what would be the purpose of a literal 1000 year reign for it to end so badly?
    What makes you think it ends any worse than this present age ends? The Revelation doesn't say this, but it may imply it: the 1000 years seems to be the period of time in which all of the promises God made to Abraham are fulfilled. All nations, including the nation of Israel, are brought into conformity with Christ. Many of them become nations of faith, or Christian nations, Israel included.

    Since Revelation lacks this kind of detail it is left to us to see whether a 1000 year Kingdom of Christ corresponds with OT prophecies of Israel's national salvation and Messianic Kingdom. Many Jews have believed in an Age to Come, in a coming Kingdom age in which a Davidic King will lead Israel to eternal peace, never more to be deported, destroyed, or cursed.

  10. #115

    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Yes indeed.

    With the many statements made in the NT about the second coming, one should then be able to see what kind of expectation the Apostles had regarding a millennium. If you think any one of those scriptures allude to premill in any way, then share it.
    Fair enough. Perhaps tomorrow....

  11. #116
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    Re: Interesting Connections

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Yes indeed.

    With the many statements made in the NT about the second coming, one should then be able to see what kind of expectation the Apostles had regarding a millennium. If you think any one of those scriptures allude to premill in any way, then share it.
    Quite frankly, there is little need in the NT to discuss the post-coming era. So I'm not sure why this amill/premill debate carries on so much, given that the post-coming period gets so little emphasis and doesn't effect the message we have to the nations. We know we are with Jesus forever, with eternal bodies, never a tear and we wish this upon the unsaved. We believe this blessing occurs from the second coming, whether amill or premill-posttrib.

    The OT on the other hand predicts the blessing of Israel after the DOTL. Sometimes its literal, sometimes figurative of the eternal blessing of the saved. To the Jews their national destiny is so important they miss the salvation message which is illustrated through the destiny of Israel. Amills tend to downplay the literalness of that message focussing on the figurative illustration of the future of Israel. Which is understandable as a big picture viewpoint, but is not easily applied to the detailed prophecies concerning Israel.

    The NT does not focus on the national destinies of the unsaved, it is more focussed on salvation and discipleship and the eternal destiny of the saved/unsaved. The OT is more concerned about the destiny of Israel as a nation, and also deals with the destinies of other nations, and that is where you will find references outside of Rev 20 to earthly national destinies.

    Even so, the apostles do show some expectation of a post-coming earthly reign, to be dealt with in my next post.

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