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Thread: Pride, doctrine, understanding all, Calvinism and Arminianism and other doctrines

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    Pride, doctrine, understanding all, Calvinism and Arminianism and other doctrines

    TrustGzus wrote a post in another thread that I am going to copy and paste here. Its worth visiting so as to not be a post we simply drive by.

    We all get adamant about our doctrines. There are some things, that I know, that I know, that I know. At least, until I don't know. Over the years, my positions on some doctrines have changed and the Lord has used them to my benefit. The same is true for many others. One thing that TrustGzus pointed out in his post is how rarely we give a nod to those that have a different view than we have when their verses back them up. Before I go further, there's a verse that I have come to love...

    Ps 131:1
    31 O Lord, my heart is not proud, nor my eyes haughty;
    Nor do I involve myself in great matters,
    Or in things too difficult for me.
    NASB

    Can we not admit that there is mystery in the word? There are things beyond our current ability to grasp? When I see a doctrine that creates pride in people, I run from it. TrustGzus made, what I thought, was an excellent point in another thread.

    Here's the link to the full post:

    http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...25#post3382325

    Here's the part I think we should respond to in this thread and consider:

    I'd be glad to go over any verse that speaks of seeking God. I'm not interested in slinging mud, and I think as much as we disagree you know that about me. I desire to build up and edify the saints.


    and

    I know there are passages that people who are not Reformed look at and think and/or say "there's no way the Reformed can reconcile this". I get that. I see it. I remember when I thought the same things.

    I also realize in forums a lot of Calvinists are difficult to dialogue with and aren't as frank as I am being.

    So in a sense, I don't care if any individual is on one side of the other. I've been on both. I can sympathize with both. I can present objections to both.


    And the big one:

    That's all I'm doing with these words: no one seeks God. I know you won't cut them out of your Bible. I know you don't want to say "it doesn't mean what it says." I know you love the Word and have a high view. I know you want to be approved unto God and not be ashamed, correctly handling the word of truth. So I know you can admit to the tension there.

    I'll take "I don't know what to do with those words" from people. Fair enough. I'll also take a good explanation that explains why the Reformed are wrong in their understanding of those words. Obviously I'll accept the response "The Reformed brothers might have a point." What none of us can accept I hope is "I'll accept Acts 17:27 or Romans 3:10-12, and I'll avoid the other". I hope none of us will settle for that.


    Can we at least be honest in our approach to the word and thoughtfully consider what someone else has to say? Can we see why they might believe what they believe? Can we acknowledge we don't have ALL the answers? After all, what is more important, the doctrine? Or the person to whom the doctrine is meant to impact? If we begin to think that truth is more important than our fellow believers, then we have missed the reason that God gave us truth to begin with. That truth is FOR our and our fellow believers benefit.

    I like the way TrustGzus said it me years ago... "Mark, I try to put a pebble in their shoe." What he was getting at was he didn't want to run them off right now, or be overly offensive, but that small pebble would bother them while they walked until they took the time to deal with it. I loved the concept!

    What do you all think?
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  2. #2

    Re: Pride, doctrine, understanding all, Calvinism and Arminianism and other doctrines

    I think each should be allowed to seek the truth and allowance made for different paths.

    Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

    The biggest Christian "crime" may not bet getting something "wrong" as it is to go inert and stop seeking to draw nearer our Savior.

  3. #3

    Re: Pride, doctrine, understanding all, Calvinism and Arminianism and other doctrines

    Many years ago, a very wise and mature fellow believer told me the following. When replying to someone about a Biblical issue, you should start every reply with "Based on my current level of understanding....."

    And of course, do everything we do out of love. Posting included.
    9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. 10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith. - Galatians 6:9-10 NASB

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    Re: Pride, doctrine, understanding all, Calvinism and Arminianism and other doctrines

    Quote Originally Posted by jesusinmylife View Post
    Many years ago, a very wise and mature fellow believer told me the following. When replying to someone about a Biblical issue, you should start every reply with "Based on my current level of understanding....."

    And of course, do everything we do out of love. Posting included.
    Nice. I tried repping you but it rejected me.
    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - unknown

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: Pride, doctrine, understanding all, Calvinism and Arminianism and other doctrines

    Quote Originally Posted by jesusinmylife View Post
    Many years ago, a very wise and mature fellow believer told me the following. When replying to someone about a Biblical issue, you should start every reply with "Based on my current level of understanding....."

    And of course, do everything we do out of love. Posting included.
    Fantastic response. I like to see people say "in my opinion" or "this is how I see it" or something along those lines. Knowing that humility is something God is attracted to, it shows me that His Spirit is active in them and it gets my attention!

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    Nice. I tried repping you but it rejected me.
    You were not chosen by the board. Deal with it!
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Pride, doctrine, understanding all, Calvinism and Arminianism and other doctrines

    Quote Originally Posted by timf View Post
    I think each should be allowed to seek the truth and allowance made for different paths.
    Certainly we all need to be given room to grow! And believers serve Him, not me or you. IOW, they serve a master different from me and do not answer to me. In this, we greatly agree.

    Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
    I love this verse! But on major doctrinal issues, I am not sure that is what this verse is speaking about.

    The biggest Christian "crime" may not bet getting something "wrong" as it is to go inert and stop seeking to draw nearer our Savior.
    AMEN! If the greatest command is to love God with all our being, then the greatest "crime" would be to break the greatest command... i.e. stop loving, seeking, finding, the Lord.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Pride, doctrine, understanding all, Calvinism and Arminianism and other doctrines

    As in so many cases, it's not God's word that contradicts itself, it's the translation. Because only a few can actually read the source languages we have come to believe our Bibles are the Scriptures. They're not. For the record, I don't believe the translators intentionally obscured the true meaning of many Scriptures. For those who speak more then one language it's well known how hard it can be to translate accurately and that on occasion there is not even a corresponding word in the target language. That all said, let's clearly show the apparent contradiction first:

    Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    Whether or not you believe it was Paul who wrote both statements doesn't really matter, all of the Scriptures are God Breathed as the Greek says in 2 Tim. 3:16. The translation of Hebrews 11:6 represents the Greek well enough IMO, Romans 3 does not.

    First, it says in Rom. 3:10: As is written ... and this points to Psalm 14:

    Psa 14:1 A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, "There is no sign of a God." They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, There is none that doeth good [no not one].
    2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the sons of Adam, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God.
    3 They are the whole mass gone aside, they are all together become corrupt: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    This text doesn't say no one seeks God, it says the unrighteous do not seek God. Psalm 14 and Rom. 3 are about righteousness and unrighteousness. So what does the Greek in Rom. 3:10 12 say?

    not is righteous, not even one
    not is the who is wise
    not is the who seeks God
    all deviate ...

    In more readable English:

    no one is righteous, not even one
    He who is wise isn't [righteous]
    He who seeks God isn't [righteous]
    all deviate ... [of God's norm]

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Pride, doctrine, understanding all, Calvinism and Arminianism and other doctrines

    One thing I try to consider when someone is aggressive or combative with any doctrine is that they may just be ignorant to the truth and wise in their own eyes, are false teachers, or both. The leaders can address these people directly in a church setting if they are found to be sowing confusion and contention, but that is just not possible on an open forum like this; I think the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13 is more appropriate for this setting:

    Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
    Job 23:10 - He knows the way that I take; when he has tried me, I shall come forth as gold.

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    Re: Pride, doctrine, understanding all, Calvinism and Arminianism and other doctrines

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post

    Can we at least be honest in our approach to the word and thoughtfully consider what someone else has to say? Can we see why they might believe what they believe? Can we acknowledge we don't have ALL the answers? After all, what is more important, the doctrine? Or the person to whom the doctrine is meant to impact? If we begin to think that truth is more important than our fellow believers, then we have missed the reason that God gave us truth to begin with. That truth is FOR our and our fellow believers benefit.

    I like the way TrustGzus said it me years ago... "Mark, I try to put a pebble in their shoe." What he was getting at was he didn't want to run them off right now, or be overly offensive, but that small pebble would bother them while they walked until they took the time to deal with it. I loved the concept!

    What do you all think?
    Hooah!

    Over the years, when a question is asked and non-answers are received, or a response is received that beats around the question without addressing the question "honestly"... problems continue, discussions break down. Specific questions, that when truly and honestly are addressed, may lead to realization that tenets of doctrine have to be deviated from... it's clear when honesty is deviated from and tenets held to and all that happens is the non-answers and/or responses that beat around the question perpetuate strained discussions. So I pray that when I ask a question that leads to a person to decide, to either hold to tenets or to be honest and approach the question WITHOUT any tenets to hold too, and then an honest view of the topic is done, truth pursued... it is also a pebble until an honest answer is reached.

    I try to raise that, God's sovereignty, righteousness and holiness cannot be compromised by any understanding held to because if any of those qualities are compromised... then we are only compromising ourselves. Not God in any way.
    Slug1--out

    ~Are we a church of members (fans of Jesus) or a church of disciples (servants of Jesus)??~

    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



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