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Thread: No sinless perfection

  1. #61
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    Re: No sinless perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    Show forth anything in the context of Galatians 3:24 that when it says the law is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, that Paul is not referring to all Christians but only to Jews.
    Show forth anything that says all gentiles were given the Law of Moses at Sinai, and I will concede.
    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    We the people...in this context referring to "we Christians", i.e. we who have been led to Christ by the schoolmaster, not "we Jews". Paul in that context would best be distancing himself from Jews as he is contending with the doctrine of Judaizers.
    I was led to Christ when I was 7. I didn't even know what the Torah was. And neither do 99% of all Christians when they come to the cross.

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post

    I am also aware of Acts 15, but are you aware of Matthew 5:18? I think that you may still hold to some false teaching regarding that verse.
    Yes. Numerous people on this forum have attempted to correct you on this. In fact the entire Christian mainstream doctrine is opposed to your interpretation of Matthew 5:18. But somehow you are one of the very few out of millions of theologians throughout two millennia who has it right?
    "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God."

    - Jesus

  2. #62

    Re: No sinless perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Show forth anything that says all gentiles were given the Law of Moses at Sinai, and I will concede.


    I was led to Christ when I was 7. I didn't even know what the Torah was. And neither do 99% of all Christians when they come to the cross.



    Yes. Numerous people on this forum have attempted to correct you on this. In fact the entire Christian mainstream doctrine is opposed to your interpretation of Matthew 5:18. But somehow you are one of the very few out of millions of theologians throughout two millennia who has it right?
    I was three years old when my mother in reading from Genesis forward came across the ten commandments, and, as she went through them, I checked off each one and said I was good. But when she got to commandment #10, I asked her what coveting meant. And I found that in simply pointing out what I wanted at the toy store with my Bepa, I was coveting that toy. Thus the law bore witness to my heart that I was a sinner.

    Now I would ask you how you knew you were a sinner when you came to Christ at seven. If you didn't know that you were a sinner, then what did you think Christ was saving you from? Understanding that I am a sinner is an integral part in my coming to know Christ as my Saviour from sin. If you did know that you were a sinner, what thing other than the law told you that you were a sinner?

    Now in Romans 3:9-19 it is clear to me that the law (verse 19) says something to those who are under it, that they are sinners in need of a Saviour. And in verse 9 it is clear that both Jews and Gentiles are alike under the sin; which statement is followed by an indictment on all humanity which is concluded by the statement that what the law says, it says to those who are under the law. The law calls Jew and Gentile alike sinners. Now you may indeed be too blind to see it, but I believe that if you study out what it says in Romans 3:9-19, you will find that Jew and Gentile alike are under the law. Since the law calls Jew and Gentile alike sinners.

    Who on this forum has attempted to correct me on Matthew 5:18? You seem to be imagining that everyone is on your side in this dispute. But I would say that even if a bunch of people attempted to correct me, as you say, that 1 Corintihans 16:9 places me on the right side of the issue. And I have heard nothing of an attempt to correct me on the issue that directly deals with the reallity of what the verse says. They have only tried to discount that not one jot or one tittle will by any means pass fromt the law until heaven and earth pass away. And it is true that one jot or one tittle will by no means pass away from the law until heaven and earth pass away. As I recall, I won the argument there also.

    And now don't you start lying in order to try to win your argument...all of mainstream Christianity is NOT against my position...and even if it was, it would be because it was missing something. The Bible itself teaches what I am saying about our relationship to the law, and if mainstream Christianity is lagging behind on the issue, then perhaps I am a man ahead of my time!

  3. #63
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    Re: No sinless perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    I was three years old when my mother in reading from Genesis forward came across the ten commandments, and, as she went through them, I checked off each one and said I was good. But when she got to commandment #10, I asked her what coveting meant. And I found that in simply pointing out what I wanted at the toy store with my Bepa, I was coveting that toy. Thus the law bore witness to my heart that I was a sinner.
    So you disagree with Jesus who said The Holy Spirit would convict the world. I see.
    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    Now I would ask you how you knew you were a sinner when you came to Christ at seven. If you didn't know that you were a sinner, then what did you think Christ was saving you from? Understanding that I am a sinner is an integral part in my coming to know Christ as my Saviour from sin. If you did know that you were a sinner, what thing other than the law told you that you were a sinner?
    The Torah was not read to me, so it was impossible for it to convict me. I was told I was a sinner by adults and I believed them because the Spirit convicted me. It's as simple as that.
    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    Now in Romans 3:9-19 it is clear to me that the law (verse 19) says something to those who are under it, that they are sinners in need of a Saviour. And in verse 9 it is clear that both Jews and Gentiles are alike under the sin; which statement is followed by an indictment on all humanity which is concluded by the statement that what the law says, it says to those who are under the law. The law calls Jew and Gentile alike sinners. Now you may indeed be too blind to see it, but I believe that if you study out what it says in Romans 3:9-19, you will find that Jew and Gentile alike are under the law. Since the law calls Jew and Gentile alike sinners.
    This has nothing to do with keeping the Torah.

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    Who on this forum has attempted to correct me on Matthew 5:18?
    Seriously? Everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    You seem to be imagining that everyone is on your side in this dispute.
    I am not imagining 'everyone is on my side.' All the posters on all your threads here disgree with your doctrine of works, not because they are not on "my" side, because simply agree with God's Word which clearly declares the teachings you are posting here as false.

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    But I would say that even if a bunch of people attempted to correct me, as you say, that 1 Corintihans 16:9 places me on the right side of the issue.
    This has no application to false teachings. None.

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    And I have heard nothing of an attempt to correct me on the issue that directly deals with the reallity of what the verse says. They have only tried to discount that not one jot or one tittle will by any means pass fromt the law until heaven and earth pass away. And it is true that one jot or one tittle will by no means pass away from the law until heaven and earth pass away. As I recall, I won the argument there also.
    The reality is that WE ARE NOT the unregenerated Jews Jesus was speaking to.
    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    And now don't you start lying in order to try to win your argument...all of mainstream Christianity is NOT against my position...and even if it was, it would be because it was missing something. The Bible itself teaches what I am saying about our relationship to the law, and if mainstream Christianity is lagging behind on the issue, then perhaps I am a man ahead of my time!
    Here you go with your personal attacks again. Yes, mainstream Christianity would characterize your teachings of keeping the Torah as false teaching. A good reference point of mainstream Christian doctrine is "Systematic Theology" by Gruber.

    Missing something? Seriously? Millions of Christians are "missing something" but you and the Hebrew Roots cult has it right? This is quite an accusation. You don't own the truth brother.
    "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God."

    - Jesus

  4. #64
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    Re: No sinless perfection

    Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
    19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
    20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
    21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
    22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
    23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
    24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
    25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
    26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
    27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
    Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Matt 5:6

    Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John 20:29

    Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God. Rom 13:2

    Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life. James 1:12

  5. #65

    Re: No sinless perfection

    No sinless perfection, yet God never references the saved person as a sinner.

  6. #66
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    Re: No sinless perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by Saul-to-Paul View Post
    No sinless perfection, yet God never references the saved person as a sinner.
    Neither did God reference David as a sinner. What is your point?
    "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God."

    - Jesus

  7. #67

    Re: No sinless perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Neither did God reference David as a sinner. What is your point?
    The point is to believe God, not what has been taught from the minds of men.

    1 John 3:9
    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

  8. #68
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    Re: No sinless perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by Saul-to-Paul View Post
    The point is to believe God, not what has been taught from the minds of men.

    1 John 3:9
    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    I believe God. Again, what is your point?
    "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God."

    - Jesus

  9. #69
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    Re: No sinless perfection

    Sinless perfection by mans actions is a myth and unscriptural. The perfection we attain is the righteousness imputed to us from Christ's sinless perfection. NOT OUR OWN. Those who maintain that they are sinless are most likely unaware of the sin they are in, and that sin is most likely pride. I've noticed a trend on this board ...That those who maintain that position can be some of the snarkiest posters out there. Go figure that one out ????

  10. #70

    Re: No sinless perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Sinless perfection by mans actions is a myth and unscriptural. The perfection we attain is the righteousness imputed to us from Christ's sinless perfection. NOT OUR OWN. Those who maintain that they are sinless are most likely unaware of the sin they are in, and that sin is most likely pride. I've noticed a trend on this board ...That those who maintain that position can be some of the snarkiest posters out there. Go figure that one out ????
    Nay! Every elect of God receives a brand new resurrected soul before they die. The saved elect are 100% perfected before God. And are in the kingdom of God already on earth.

    Matthew 9:17

    17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

    What's unscriptural is to reference yourself as a sinner if you claim to be a Christian. There's no such thing in the word of God as a saved sinner.

  11. #71
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    Re: No sinless perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by Saul-to-Paul View Post
    Nay! Every elect of God receives a brand new resurrected soul before they die. The saved elect are 100% perfected before God. And are in the kingdom of God already on earth.

    Matthew 9:17

    17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

    What's unscriptural is to reference yourself as a sinner if you claim to be a Christian. There's no such thing in the word of God as a saved sinner.
    This does not mean they are sinless after salvation. Just forgiven for those transgressions. Even Christ exampled repentance after salvation in the model prayer. You use the term sinner...I'm not saying a saint is a sinner. I'm saying that saints commit sins. It's fact brother.

  12. #72

    Re: No sinless perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by Saul-to-Paul View Post
    Nay! Every elect of God receives a brand new resurrected soul before they die. The saved elect are 100% perfected before God. And are in the kingdom of God already on earth.

    Matthew 9:17

    17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

    What's unscriptural is to reference yourself as a sinner if you claim to be a Christian. There's no such thing in the word of God as a saved sinner.
    All saints are saved sinners until fully glorified.....while they no longer habitually practice sin they are still able to sin...a person still able to sin....is a sinner still.....PB is correct here.

  13. #73

    Re: No sinless perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I'm not saying a saint is a sinner. I'm saying that saints commit sins. It's fact brother.
    That's a contradiction.

  14. #74
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    Re: No sinless perfection

    Quote Originally Posted by Saul-to-Paul View Post
    That's a contradiction.
    Your splitting hairs with your narrow definition. It's not a contradiction.

    Are you telling me that since your conversion you have never committed a transgression against God ? You've been perfectly obedient ? You've never even had an impure thought ? Paul the mighty struggled with sin. David . Moses. Peter. But not you ? Ummmmkay......

  15. #75
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    Re: No sinless perfection

    Huh? "Every elect of God receives a brand new resurrected soul before they die"?

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