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Thread: You shall not see Me until...

  1. #1
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    You shall not see Me until...

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    Last edited by stoomart; May 11th 2017 at 05:15 AM.

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    Re: You shall not see Me until...

    Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord

    Ezekiel 43:1-9 I went to the East gate and there I saw the glory of the Lord coming with the sound of a mighty torrent. The earth shone with His glory, it came in and filled the Temple, the place of His throne where He will dwell among His Israelite people forever. Neither they or their rulers will defy the Lord again by their idolatry and sins.Israelites, now every true Christian believers, who by faith are the spiritual descendants of Abraham. Romans 9:8

    Ezekiel 43:10-11 Ezekiel, tell them about the Temple and let them be ashamed for their sins. If they repent and are remorseful for what they have done, then describe to them the new Temple, to be built on the Holy mountain. Make detailed plans for them to follow and carry out, with all the instructions for its operation.
    Ezekiel 46:1-3 The East gate is to be kept closed during the six days of the working week, to be opened only on Sabbaths and at the new moon. When the ruler, [The prince in the NIV & KJV] comes in, he is to stand by the East gatepost, while the priests sacrifice his offerings. He is to bow down in worship and then to leave. The people must also bow in worship at that gate. Malachi 1:5

    Ezekiel, the prophet, lived during the period between the exile of the Northern tribes and the Jewish captivity. His prophecies about the Land and the Temple have not yet happened, as when the Jewish remnant returned under Nehemiah, that Temple didn't receive the Shekinah Glory. All of Ezekiel chapters 40 - 48, await fulfilment and note that this must be before the Return of Jesus, as the 'ruler' of all God's people makes sacrifices and worships the Lord at the New Temple. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11, Zechariah 14:21


    He is tramping out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored. Isaiah 63:1-6

    Revelation 14:18-20 From the altar came the angel who has authority over fire and he called out to the angel with the sharp sickle: "Gather the harvest, the grape clusters are ripe." They were gathered and thrown into the great winepress of God's wrath. Blood flowed from the press for 200 miles. Habakkuk 3:12, Amos 5:17, Jeremiah 6:9


    He has loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword. Ezekiel 21:15, Matthew 24:27

    Ezekiel 30:1-8 Prophesy! The Lord says: Cry out, for the terrible Day is near, the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, His Day of Reckoning upon the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt and there will be disaster in all of the Arab lands. Those who support Egypt will fall and all who live along the Nile will die. When I set Egypt on fire, the land will become totally desolate and ruined. They will all know that I am the Lord, on that Day. Ref: REB. Some verses abridged.

    The Lord's Day of reckoning - a Day of fire, His terrible Day of vengeance and wrath, will be an unexpected and shocking event, that will cause destruction throughout the Middle East. It will be the fulfilment of Psalm 83 and Micah 4:11-12. Other prophesies make it clear that the whole world will be affected and that it will take the form of a coronal mass ejection sunstrike. A really big, earth directed CME will have all the effects described, but it quickly passes, leaving the Holy Land ready for His righteous Christian people to gather and settle there. The rest of the world's nations will form a One world Government.

    His Truth is marching on! The Truth of the Prophetic Word. What God really plans for His holy people. Isaiah 49:8

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    Re: You shall not see Me until...

    Keraz, very good explanation. Ezekiel and other prophets describe the end times as seen by the OT prophets, so a New Temple, and Revelation as seen under the new covenant, hence the New Jerusalem in heaven. The Bible is written for Christians, believers, and cannot be used in fortune telling as specialized in by Darby, Scofield, and rapture theorists.

    The earth is destroyed when the sixth seal is opened and as told by Jesus in Matthew 24. “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Mat 24:29-31) The redeemed are in heaven, not on earth. Ezekiel sees it as dry bones getting flesh.

    From then on everything happens in heaven to spiritual people. 50% of people proclaiming to be Christians will be killed and see the second death according to Matthew 25 because they do not have the Holy Spirit working in them. The five maidens without oil.

    John saw seven churches, Ezekiel 7 nations. Egypt, the infant baptizers as they never leave Egypt by being baptized after believing in Christ, Assyria, the RCC for their mother and child beliefs, Edom, the Judaism belief for absolving their firsts born rights, Tyre and Zidon the Christians that does business in the name of the LORD (name it claim it and TV evangelists), Israel as the church people in the broader sense, and Jerusalem as the true believers. The Moabites and Ammonites are those that believe in their “prophets” more than the Bible like the Latter Day Saints and others.

    This will give you a totally different approach to use in your arguments, which I agree with most of the times.
    Shama - A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.): - X attentively, call (gather) together, X carefully, X certainly, consent, consider, be content, declare, X diligently, discern, give ear, (cause to, let, make to) hear (-ken, tell), X indeed, listen, make (a) noise, (be) obedient, obey, perceive, (make a) proclaim (-ation), publish, regard, report, shew (forth), (make a) sound, X surely, tell, understand, whosoever [heareth], witness

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    Re: You shall not see Me until...

    Thanks LE., but I won't be using any totally different approach to my eschatology.
    I do not agree that the earth will be destroyed at the Sixth Seal; just devastated and our civilization reset, as it was in the days of Noah- but this time by fire.

    At no stage do the Redeemed people, that is: every true believer from every race, nation and language, ever go to live in heaven. We will occupy all of the regenerated holy Land and be the people God always wanted there, but has never had.
    That is our destiny and our great privilege.

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    Re: You shall not see Me until...

    “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.” 5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me

    Jesus himself said he is preparing a place for us *In His Father House*.

    To anyone who wants to believe or teach anything other then Jesus words i suggest they read 1 Timothy 6:3

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    Re: You shall not see Me until...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.” 5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me

    Jesus himself said he is preparing a place for us *In His Father House*.

    To anyone who wants to believe or teach anything other then Jesus words i suggest they read 1 Timothy 6:3
    I think that those who assume that the term "my fathers house" is heaven are doing so against the harmony of scripture. They must assume that John 14 is the SOLE EXCEPTION.


    John 2:15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, ...Do not make My Father's house a house of merchandise!"


    Luke 2:46 Then, after three days they found Him in the temple, ... "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?"


    Was Jesus driving the money changers out of Heaven?

    Was Jesus lost as a boy for three days in Heaven?


    In each of the biblical mentions of the term "my Fathers house", it NEVER refers to heaven but rather to the Temple in Jerusalem. I believe the context of Jesus statement is that His going away to the cross and then to back to Heaven, which subsequently includes the sending of the Holy Spirit to bring the church to maturity for the purpose of "PREPARING" a place for his saints in that future kingdom as Priests accoriding to the prophesies such as Ezekiel and Isaiah. That when Jesus returns, the disciples would have a share in this kingdom and that "where He is, they may also be". Jesus will rule the nations from Jerusalem and from the Temple (Fathers House) in the age to come alongside His resurrected saints who shall reign with Him. This is no different than what he had already told His disciples that they would 'sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes" or that those who "overcome shall sit with Me on my throne just as I overcame and sat down on My fathers throne. "

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    Re: You shall not see Me until...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    I think that those who assume that the term "my fathers house" is heaven are doing so against the harmony of scripture. They must assume that John 14 is the SOLE EXCEPTION.
    In John 14 Jesus is clearly talking about his Fathers house in Heaven.

    Unless you believe when the temple of Jerusalem was destroyed Gods House was destroyed..

    Also the disciples where clearly familiar with *the temple* so if this is where Jesus is going why would they ask.

    “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?"



    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    John 2:15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, ...Do not make My Father's house a house of merchandise!"


    Luke 2:46 Then, after three days they found Him in the temple, ... "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?"


    Was Jesus driving the money changers out of Heaven?

    Was Jesus lost as a boy for three days in Heaven?

    In each of the biblical mentions of the term "my Fathers house", it NEVER refers to heaven but rather to the Temple in Jerusalem.
    The Temple was molded after something was it not?

    Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent[a] that the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.

    Its also clear Jesus is not currently in the ruins of the temple in Jerusalem currently preparing a place for us there... nor did he go to the earthly temple after his Resurrection to prepare a place for us there from 33-70 ad.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    I believe the context of Jesus statement is that His going away to the cross and then to back to Heaven,
    Correct his father house here is clearly *Heaven.* As he tells his Disciples *he's going TO the Father*.

    “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    which subsequently includes the sending of the Holy Spirit to bring the church to maturity for the purpose of "PREPARING" a place for his saints in that future kingdom as Priests accoriding to the prophesies such as Ezekiel and Isaiah. That when Jesus returns, the disciples would have a share in this kingdom and that "where He is, they may also be". Jesus will rule the nations from Jerusalem and from the Temple (Fathers House) in the age to come alongside His resurrected saints who shall reign with Him. This is no different than what he had already told His disciples that they would 'sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes" or that those who "overcome shall sit with Me on my throne just as I overcame and sat down on My fathers throne. "
    Your view makes no sense if one reads the Book of Hebrews, which clearly talks about What Jesus is doing in *His fathers House* and the place he is preparing for us.



    Therefore, holy brothers,[a] you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God's house. For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house, if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

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    Re: You shall not see Me until...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    In John 14 Jesus is clearly talking about his Fathers house in Heaven.

    Unless you believe when the temple of Jerusalem was destroyed Gods House was destroyed..
    This is a non issue. The Temple of Solomon was the "Fathers house" and yet it was destoryed. The Temple of Herod was the "fathers house" and it was destoryed. The millennial temple will also be the "fathers house" and will endure. God told Solomon, that "in this place, He would put His name there forever". Yet he also told Solomon he would remove the temple of stone if the children of Israel rebelled. Both truths are correct. The removal of the structure did not make the "place" any less the "fathers house". God will build it again upon His return, which it the subject of John 14.

    Also the disciples where clearly familiar with *the temple* so if this is where Jesus is going why would they ask.

    “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?"
    I never denied that Jesus was going back to heaven, in fact I clearly said he was. The going to the cross and then to heaven was the for the PURPOSE of preparing a place for the saints in the future kingdom which shall be established upon His return. You are assuming that Jesus said "I am going to my Fathers house to prepare you a mansion" but Jesus did not say that. He simply stated that "there are many abodes in the Fathers house" and that Jesus is going away to prepare "a place for them". The going away is necessary for the saints to "have a place" in that future kingdom in the Fathers house. The sending of the Holy Spirit, the maturing of the bride, and the intra advent age is for the purpose of bringing forth a bride to rule with Him on the earth. YOu read the word "prepare" and think it means Jesus is currently doing heavenly carpentry. I read the word "preparing" and I understand it to mean the entirety of the work Christ on the cross and subsequently the continual work in this age as he "ever lives to make intercession for us" and orchestrating the prophetic events of world history inorder make room for us in that future kingdom.

    The Temple was molded after something was it not?

    Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent[a] that the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.

    Its also clear Jesus is not currently in the ruins of the temple in Jerusalem currently preparing a place for us there... nor did he go to the earthly temple after his Resurrection to prepare a place for us there from 33-70 ad.
    When Steven saw Jesus at his maryterdom, the Son of God was STANDING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD. Steven did not see Jesus hanging drywall in our heavenly dorm rooms.

    Hebrews said that "Jesus SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD and FROM THAT TIME FORWARD IS WAITING UNTIL HIS ENEMIES ARE MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL".

    Jesus is waiting at the right hand of God. He is NOT pressure washing our castle.

    Simply because the early tabernacle was picture of the heavenly one, doesent give us the right to CHANGE biblical terms. EVERYTIME THE TERM "FATHERS HOUSE" IS USED, IT REFERS TO THE TEMPLE.

    Correct his father house here is clearly *Heaven.* As he tells his Disciples *he's going TO the Father*.

    “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.
    NEVER ARGUED IT WASENT

    Your view makes no sense if one reads the Book of Hebrews, which clearly talks about What Jesus is doing in *His fathers House* and the place he is preparing for us.



    Therefore, holy brothers,[a] you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God's house. For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house, if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.
    The passage in hebrew is NOT about Jesus laying bricks on a residential construction site. Hebrews clearly is using a metaphor that the "house" is the people of God. It says "And we are his house, if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

    Jesus has been faithful in his testimony TO US (His House) just as Moses was faithful in his day to his people. This is not about Jesus putting shingles on our roofs or buffing our kitchen windows.

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    Re: You shall not see Me until...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post



    I never denied that Jesus was going back to heaven, in fact I clearly said he was. The going to the cross and then to heaven was the for the PURPOSE of preparing a place for the saints in the future kingdom which shall be established upon His return. You are assuming that Jesus said "I am going to my Fathers house to prepare you a mansion" but Jesus did not say that. He simply stated that "there are many abodes in the Fathers house" and that Jesus is going away to prepare "a place for them". The going away is necessary for the saints to "have a place" in that future kingdom in the Fathers house. The sending of the Holy Spirit, the maturing of the bride, and the intra advent age is for the purpose of bringing forth a bride to rule with Him on the earth. YOu read the word "prepare" and think it means Jesus is currently doing heavenly carpentry. I read the word "preparing" and I understand it to mean the entirety of the work Christ on the cross and subsequently the continual work in this age as he "ever lives to make intercession for us" and orchestrating the prophetic events of world history inorder make room for us in that future kingdom.



    [/I]
    Obviously, to me anyway, this place He went to prepare has to be meaning this same NJ that comes down from God out of heaven in Rev 21. And since John 14 indicates, that where I am, there you shall also be, and that Rev 21 clearly shows that the NJ is where Jesus will be, how then could this place He went to prepare not be this same NJ? Are you ultimately thinking along these same lines as well?

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    Re: You shall not see Me until...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    This is a non issue. The Temple of Solomon was the "Fathers house" and yet it was destoryed. The Temple of Herod was the "fathers house" and it was destoryed. The millennial temple will also be the "fathers house" and will endure. God told Solomon, that "in this place, He would put His name there forever". Yet he also told Solomon he would remove the temple of stone if the children of Israel rebelled. Both truths are correct. The removal of the structure did not make the "place" any less the "fathers house". God will build it again upon His return, which it the subject of John 14.
    I don't understand, What Eartly temple are you claiming Jesus is referencing in John 14? Where in the bible does it say Jesus is going to build a 3rd temple after his second coming?????????





    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    I never denied that Jesus was going back to heaven, in fact I clearly said he was. The going to the cross and then to heaven was the for the PURPOSE of preparing a place for the saints in the future kingdom which shall be established upon His return. You are assuming that Jesus said "I am going to my Fathers house to prepare you a mansion" but Jesus did not say that. He simply stated that "there are many abodes in the Fathers house" and that Jesus is going away to prepare "a place for them". The going away is necessary for the saints to "have a place" in that future kingdom in the Fathers house. The sending of the Holy Spirit, the maturing of the bride, and the intra advent age is for the purpose of bringing forth a bride to rule with Him on the earth. YOu read the word "prepare" and think it means Jesus is currently doing heavenly carpentry. I read the word "preparing" and I understand it to mean the entirety of the work Christ on the cross and subsequently the continual work in this age as he "ever lives to make intercession for us" and orchestrating the prophetic events of world history in order make room for us in that future kingdom.
    We clearly disagree about where and what Jesus is Preparing for the Church.

    I believe Jesus i preparing the Heavenly temple in which we shall all be apart of when it is joined together at the Rapture Ephesians 2:18-22.(something Jesus is actively working on in each christian Individually).

    You believe Jesus is preparing us for his earthly millennium Kingdom which will be established on earth after his second coming by Manipulating world history. (please correct me if i'm misrepresenting your views).

    I believe Jesus is the Way the truth and the Life. The place he's telling them they will go is *BEFORE THE FATHER* as he clearly states. No one goes *before the father*. He is preparing the way *TO the FATHER*, he not preparing the way to some other earthly temple.

    “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.” 5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him,


    “I am the way, and the truth,
    and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    Once more this is corroborated from the rest of the NT such as in the book of Hebrews, or 2 Corinthians .

    We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    When Steven saw Jesus at his maryterdom, the Son of God was STANDING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD. Steven did not see Jesus hanging drywall in our heavenly dorm rooms. Hebrews said that "Jesus SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD and FROM THAT TIME FORWARD IS WAITING UNTIL HIS ENEMIES ARE MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL".
    Jesus is waiting at the right hand of God. He is NOT pressure washing our castle.
    Simply because the early tabernacle was picture of the heavenly one, doesent give us the right to CHANGE biblical terms. EVERYTIME THE TERM "FATHERS HOUSE" IS USED, IT REFERS TO THE TEMPLE.
    Correct, Father House refers to the Temple.

    Some refer to the earthly temple and Some to the Heavenly temple

    Hebrews is clearly the heavenly temple as is John 14.

    Once more Jesus preparing a place for us in the House doesn't refer to *Earthly Construction*.

    The bible clearly tells us it is not built by Human hands.

    For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    NEVER ARGUED IT WASENT
    The passage in hebrew is NOT about Jesus laying bricks on a residential construction site. Hebrews clearly is using a metaphor that the "house" is the people of God. It says "And we are his house, if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.
    Jesus has been faithful in his testimony TO US (His House) just as Moses was faithful in his day to his people. This is not about Jesus putting shingles on our roofs or buffing our kitchen windows.
    Jesus isn't going to build the new temple with bricks you seem to be trying to make a straw-man where you claim I believe Jesus is building some heavenly temple out of Bricks.. or buffering our Kitchen windows.

    This isn't how Jesus prepares us (his house) for whats going to happen in the future.

    This is also not the Picture the bible paints.(even though we know Jesus was a carpenter)

    John 14 Jesus is clearly talking about the heavenly temple, i'm pretty sure you admit this.. (unless you believe Jesus is telling his disciples that in the earthly temple are many rooms ect.)

    Jesus is talking about his *Father House* in Heaven not the Earthly temple.(once more this might be the root of our discussion so if we can make this clear it would go faster).

    IOW do you believe in John 14 Jesus when he says (in my fathers House) he's speaking about the Earthly temple that was destroyed 37 years later or the Temple in Heaven (where we agree he currently is)?


    As for how the temple will be built I suggest some people read Paul's words in Collisions, Romans, 1-2 Corinthians, Philippians and Ephesians.(I know you are aware of these passages).

    Or John description of Overcomes becoming *Pillars* in the temple of God in Rev 3:12.

    OR the Description of the NJ in Rev 21 (With the disciples as the Corner stones and the tribes as the Gates).



    Once more the book of Hebrews Clearly explains what Jesus is saying in John 14

    Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

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    Re: You shall not see Me until...

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Obviously, to me anyway, this place He went to prepare has to be meaning this same NJ that comes down from God out of heaven in Rev 21. And since John 14 indicates, that where I am, there you shall also be, and that Rev 21 clearly shows that the NJ is where Jesus will be, how then could this place He went to prepare not be this same NJ? Are you ultimately thinking along these same lines as well?
    I think it's a great question. Your thoughts would fit in well under the historic premillennialism model where they believe Rev 21 is not chronological to Rev 20. I know many that think this. I have some extended thoughts on the subject but it would take me a while to write. I just stepped out and I'm not at my computer anymore so I'm gonna have to wait before I can give all my thoughts on that.

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    Re: You shall not see Me until...

    Very good points, Beginner - which you are certainly not!
    The trouble with discussing whether or not there will be a rapture, is those who have believed it, have become incapable of seeing any other view of the end times. Isaiah 29:9-12 and 2 Thess 2:12 say that God will confuse the minds of people who choose to believe false teachings. 2 Timothy 2:3-4

    They argue that there will not be another Temple, when 2 Thess 2:4 and Rev 11:1 plainly say there will be a new Temple in Jerusalem.
    But their belief in going to heaven, a doctrine nowhere stated in the Bible, is their cardinal mistake and to support that error, means there has to be Two Peoples, Two Promises; the Church and Israel; that is also extremely contrary to New Testament teaching about the One people of God and how all who believe are the children of Abraham.
    However, because millions have taken to the 'rapture' theory, largely because that has been all they were taught, then we must assume that is how God wants it to be and when they are not taken to heaven, as the world experiences terrible troubles, then their faith gets the ultimate test.

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    Re: You shall not see Me until...

    Well, the OP got deleted and I don't remember what verses were in it. I see this has become another rapture vs no rapture discussion.

    For those who do understand there to be a rapture sometime prior to Jesus ultimate return, do you think this verse will be fulfilled at the rapture or the latter coming?

    Matt 23:39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’

    Will they (Jerusalem) see Him at the rapture?

    If so, what will cause them to say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" prior to the rapture?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Thames, New Zealand
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    563

    Re: You shall not see Me until...

    As the Bible prophets undeniably state, God's holy People will be in Jerusalem during the Great Tribulation:
    Daniel 7:25 He [the leader of the One World Govt] will hurl defiance at the Most High God and will conquer His people for a time. times and half a time. [3 1/2 years] He will change the Laws and cancel the Mo'edim.
    Revelation 13:5-7 The beast was allowed to blaspheme God, to defeat God's holy people and have control over all the nations for 42 months

    As prophesied they will be under the authority of the Anti-Christ for that 3 1/2 years, but that period is also the Great Tribulation. Rev 12 says that half of the Christians will hide in a place of safety, and be gathered at Jesus' Return. Matthew 24:31
    But the half who must remain, Zechariah 14:2b, will be those who cry out: Blessed be He that comes in the Name of the Lord.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    2,638

    Re: You shall not see Me until...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    As the Bible prophets undeniably state, God's holy People will be in Jerusalem during the Great Tribulation:
    Daniel 7:25 He [the leader of the One World Govt] will hurl defiance at the Most High God and will conquer His people for a time. times and half a time. [3 1/2 years] He will change the Laws and cancel the Mo'edim.
    Revelation 13:5-7 The beast was allowed to blaspheme God, to defeat God's holy people and have control over all the nations for 42 months

    As prophesied they will be under the authority of the Anti-Christ for that 3 1/2 years, but that period is also the Great Tribulation. Rev 12 says that half of the Christians will hide in a place of safety, and be gathered at Jesus' Return. Matthew 24:31
    But the half who must remain, Zechariah 14:2b, will be those who cry out: Blessed be He that comes in the Name of the Lord.
    So according to your belief this is about the Church the true House of David?

    Zech 13

    In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

    And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.


    And the Church can't call upon the name of the Lord now for this reason?


    Matt 23:39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’

    Since according to you

    Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


    We the church are now the House of Israel.

    So then why does Paul tell us we can call out to God now as Abba father? Romans 8:15..

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