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Thread: When will the OT saints be resurrected?

  1. #106
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    Re: When will the OT saints be resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Yes the bible Clearly says Christ descends with a shout its him doing the shouting there is no other entity present.

    It's not Christ shouting. It's an archangel just as it says. You are also wrong about no other entity being there as Christ comes with ten thousands of his saints and angels.

    1Th_3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

    Jud_1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  2. #107
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    Re: When will the OT saints be resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post




    The readers also had a good Jewish backround as did all the disciples and Jesus so they would be familiar with a Lot of trumpets associated with Jewish Culture including the ones associated with the Feast days which Paul clearly is referencing in 1 Cor 15. The fact that you believe all trumpets in the NT and OT are the same is your personal assumption and one many adhere to I just don't i've heard this assumption many times i just don't agree.
    What jewish trumpets are you referring too? In traditional Jewish eschatology they believe that Rosh hashanah (Feast of Trumpets) is a prophetic feast pointing to the final day of judgment at the "end of the world". They believe it is a transitional phase from Trumpet through Tabernacles (Tishri 1-15) and brings in the "world to come" (Messianic age). They believe that the Feast of Trumpets transpires after the Battle of Gog and Magog and the events of Zechariah 14 which is the LAST battle at the end of the age before the Messianic Reign of Ezekiel 40-48.

    Therefore, the only "Jewish Feast" that included "Trumpets" that 1st century Jewish Christians would have known about was a post tribulational one (After the Final battle) at the very end of the age. Jewish eschatology harmonizes perfectly with Historic Premillennialism except for there inability to see Jesus as that Messiah.

  3. #108
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    Re: When will the OT saints be resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    What jewish trumpets are you referring too? In traditional Jewish eschatology they believe that Rosh hashanah (Feast of Trumpets) is a prophetic feast pointing to the final day of judgment at the "end of the world". They believe it is a transitional phase from Trumpet through Tabernacles (Tishri 1-15) and brings in the "world to come" (Messianic age). They believe that the Feast of Trumpets transpires after the Battle of Gog and Magog and the events of Zechariah 14 which is the LAST battle at the end of the age before the Messianic Reign of Ezekiel 40-48.

    Therefore, the only "Jewish Feast" that included "Trumpets" that 1st century Jewish Christians would have known about was a post tribulational one (After the Final battle) at the very end of the age. Jewish eschatology harmonizes perfectly with Historic Premillennialism except for there inability to see Jesus as that Messiah.
    All i'm saying is the interpretation you put forth above is more in line with how the Church in Cor would have understood Pauls letter, the idea that they connected his writing to the 7 trumpets in the book of Rev is not Factual at all. If one wants to know what Paul was drawing on they should look to the Jewish feasts Rosh Hashana or Yom Teruah “Day of Shouting” and studying this transitional Phase from Trumpets through Tabernacles (which of course Includes Atonement). My only point being using the assumption you did previous doesn't really add much to this study. But this is just how i personally feel, i don't fault people for believing the 7 trumpet is the Last trumpet some things just sound good in your head and people run with it. I just like to point out that this would have been an *Impossible* connection for Pauls audience to make. Also the Idea that he's teaching about Jesus second Coming from the Olive discourse doesn't seem to be apparent in this letter either.

    The above study is the one i did and i think it offers more value then -the assumption that the trumpets are the same as long as we don't get too specific- line drawn between Rev and 1 Cor. Look at the feast Day Yom Teruah when studying the *Last Trumpet*.

  4. #109
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    Re: When will the OT saints be resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It's not Christ shouting. It's an archangel just as it says. You are also wrong about no other entity being there as Christ comes with ten thousands of his saints and angels.
    No Christ shouts in the Voice of an Archangel- Here he's not coming with His Saints in 1 Thes 4:17 the verse we are talking about he's meeting his saints in the Air not coming with them

    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

  5. #110
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    Re: When will the OT saints be resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    No Christ shouts in the Voice of an Archangel- Here he's not coming with His Saints in 1 Thes 4:17 the verse we are talking about he's meeting his saints in the Air not coming with them
    He comes with the saints of heaven and meets with the living saints from Earth. Christ does not shout with the voice of an archangel...that doesn't even make sense. You are simply misunderstanding what the phrase means.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  6. #111
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    Re: When will the OT saints be resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    He comes with the saints of heaven and meets with the living saints from Earth. Christ does not shout with the voice of an archangel...that doesn't even make sense. You are simply misunderstanding what the phrase means.
    What your saying makes no Sense-

    The Dead in Christ Rise he don't come with them the rise to meet him in the Air..

    Also the bible says He shouts or a Loud Command- argue with the text not me.

  7. #112
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    Re: When will the OT saints be resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    What your saying makes no Sense the Dead in Christ Rise he doesn't come with them..
    The dead in Christ are in heaven and return with him.

    Also the bible says He shouts argue with the text not me.
    No scripture says he shouts. I argue with your incredibly bad understanding of what scripture actually says.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  8. #113
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    Re: When will the OT saints be resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The dead in Christ are in heaven and return with him.
    No scripture says he(Jesus) shouts I disagree with your incredibly bad understanding of what scripture actually says.
    Ok so I just want to make sure we have a clear contrast between what we are saying.

    You believe that the dead in Christ are currently in heaven with Jesus.

    At the time of the Rapture they come down from heaven with Jesus.

    My question is what does it mean to you when the passage says the dead in christ will rise?

    And then we( both living and dead) will forever be with the Lord.

    Also how does 1 thess 5 fit into your views?

    You seem to believe that God The Lord (Jesus) never shouts or speaks in the Bible or that the Bible never says that he gives his voice or shouts - this to me couldn't be further from reality. You also don't seem to understand the nature of his voice. Remember Jesus is the Word.

    I think you mean you disagree with my position on 1 thess 4 but clearly I disagree with yours.

    I believe the dead in Christ rise up to meet the Lord in the sky and then we attend him to go before the father as 1 thess 3 states.

    To me it seems to me with disagree with the order of events and the nature of the Trumpet call.

    I believe the Lord Shouts and this is a position scholars and many Christians believe. It's the voice of the Lord that raises people out of thier graves.

  9. #114
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    Re: When will the OT saints be resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Figure out what brother? You want to connect the 7th trumpet with Pauls Last trumpet I personally see no need to make these connections( I just believe the events that happen at the 7th trumpet are mentioned in Rev 11-12 not 1 Cor 15:50-55). If that's the assumption you want to make by all means brother go ahead.

    People repeat this assumption constantly so it almost took on a mind of it own.

    The bible Says the Lord will descend with a *Shout*. If this to you mean the Lord will descend with the 7th Angels trumpet that's fine by me by all means assume/believe this =).
    I was referring specifically to your assertion that Jesus himself blew the trumpet on Mount Sinai. My view is that an angel actually blew the trumpet and not Jesus himself. Another way to look at it is a statement like "the president went to war". But the president is in the White House while the military conducted the battle that he authorised.

    The Beginner and others have made a power and in my opinion, irrefutable case connecting the dots to prove that the Last Trump is indeed the 7th Trumpet call of Revelation. There's nothing I can add to better what has already been presented. Understandably, it pokes holes into your own understanding of the trumpets, I know you are an objective scholar and I'm hoping you'll review the arguments here in due course with an open mind and see that it's the best interpretation of the texts.

  10. #115
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    Re: When will the OT saints be resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Ok so I just want to make sure we have a clear contrast between what we are saying.

    You believe that the dead in Christ are currently in heaven with Jesus.

    At the time of the Rapture they come down from heaven with Jesus.

    My question is what does it mean to you when the passage says the dead in christ will rise?

    It means they are resurrected into the spiritual body.


    And then we( both living and dead) will forever be with the Lord.

    Also how does 1 thess 5 fit into your views?

    A whole chapter?


    You seem to believe that God The Lord (Jesus) never shouts or speaks in the Bible or that the Bible never says that he gives his voice or shouts - this to me couldn't be further from reality.
    When exactly did I say Christ never speaks? You have made that part up...I said Jesus is not the one shouting in the verse we are discussing.



    I believe the dead in Christ rise up to meet the Lord in the sky and then we attend him to go before the father as 1 thess 3 states.
    Please cite actual verses not entire chapters. The dead rise up to heaven at the moment of death. Only the living saints rise up physically in the rapture.


    I believe the Lord Shouts and this is a position scholars and many Christians believe.

    A lot of errant things are believed.

    Rev_10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    These verses speak of the same exact event.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  11. #116
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    Re: When will the OT saints be resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It means they are resurrected into the spiritual body.A whole chapter?
    When exactly did I say Christ never speaks? You have made that part up...I said Jesus is not the one shouting in the verse we are discussing.
    Please cite actual verses not entire chapters. The dead rise up to heaven at the moment of death. Only the living saints rise up physically in the rapture.
    These verses speak of the same exact event.
    A lot of errant things are believed.
    Correct Alot of Errant things are believed but the fact of the matter is everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions (even when incorrect or unreasonable) even if i convinced you to accept my interpretation it doesn't really add much to value to my life or yours. I just suggest you are open to interpretations of others even if you don't personally accept or believe them.

  12. #117
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    Re: When will the OT saints be resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I was referring specifically to your assertion that Jesus himself blew the trumpet on Mount Sinai.Sorry i don't thin My view is that an angel actually blew the trumpet and not Jesus himself. Another way to look at it is a statement like "the president went to war". But the president is in the White House while the military conducted the battle that he authorised.

    The Beginner and others have made a power and in my opinion, irrefutable case connecting the dots to prove that the Last Trump is indeed the 7th Trumpet call of Revelation. There's nothing I can add to better what has already been presented. Understandably, it pokes holes into your own understanding of the trumpets, I know you are an objective scholar and I'm hoping you'll review the arguments here in due course with an open mind and see that it's the best interpretation of the texts.
    I'm open to all interpretations tbh i reject this one for multiple reason i think the beginner understands why, you guys personally can believe whatever you wish I could pull up a scholar in less the 3 mins that would offer a peer reviewed case that destroys a-lot of the beginners assumptions but whatever one believes and how they challenge their own beliefs is up to them. Since the beginner presented a case you already agreed with why not actually go look up a critic to his case and see if they make an honest case as to why his arguments are not sound - I've already done this, i know the holes in both cases and i just choose the one with the most evidence.

    Also i think your confused i don't believe Jesus was blowing a trumpet at Sinai the Lord has a voice like a Trumpet.. I know you don't like when i post the work of scholars but here's the exegensis for 1 Cor 15 that doesn't run thru Rev 11(which was not written at this time).

    Quote

    Trump of God—the trumpet blast which usually accompanies God's manifestation in glory (Ex 19:16; Ps 47:5); here the last of the three accompaniments of His appearing: as the trumpet was used to convene God's people to their solemn convocations (Nu 10:2, 10; 31:6), so here to summon God's elect together, preparatory to their glorification with Christ (Ps 50:1-5; Mt 24:31; 1Co 15:52).

    End of Quote.

    Quote

    For the trumpet heralding great manifestations of God, see Exodus 19:13, Exodus 19:16; Psalm 47:5; Isaiah 27:13; Zechariah 9:14; Zephaniah 1:16; Joel 2:1; Matthew 24:31; 1 Corinthians 15:52; Revelation 1:10; Revelation 4:1. Of God does not indicate the size or loudness of the trumpet, but merely that it is used in God's service. Comp. harps of God, Revelation 15:2; musical instruments of God, 1 Chronicles 16:42. The later Jews believed that God would use a trumpet to raise the dead.

    End of Quote

    Notice the fact that there is no mention of Rev 11 in the exegesis of either of these Scholars.

    I also want to add i believe the Trumpet call in 1 Thes 4 is another *call to the Mountain* just like in Exodus 19. Not a call to announce the kingdom coming as the beginners doctrine claims(since the 7th trumpet is the Announcement of the Kingdom's of Earth being given to Jesus).

    The Church
    accompanies Jesus to the NJ at the sound of the Last trumpet Hebrews 12:19-29

  13. #118
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    Re: When will the OT saints be resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I'm open to all interpretations tbh i reject this one for multiple reason i think the beginner understands why, you guys personally can believe whatever you wish I could pull up a scholar in less the 3 mins that would offer a peer reviewed case that destroys a-lot of the beginners assumptions but whatever one believes and how they challenge their own beliefs is up to them. Since the beginner presented a case you already agreed with why not actually go look up a critic to his case and see if they make an honest case as to why his arguments are not sound - I've already done this, i know the holes in both cases and i just choose the one with the most evidence.

    Also i think your confused i don't believe Jesus was blowing a trumpet at Sinai the Lord has a voice like a Trumpet.. I know you don't like when i post the work of scholars but here's the exegensis for 1 Cor 15 that doesn't run thru Rev 11(which was not written at this time).

    Quote

    Trump of God—the trumpet blast which usually accompanies God's manifestation in glory (Ex 19:16; Ps 47:5); here the last of the three accompaniments of His appearing: as the trumpet was used to convene God's people to their solemn convocations (Nu 10:2, 10; 31:6), so here to summon God's elect together, preparatory to their glorification with Christ (Ps 50:1-5; Mt 24:31; 1Co 15:52).

    End of Quote.

    Quote

    For the trumpet heralding great manifestations of God, see Exodus 19:13, Exodus 19:16; Psalm 47:5; Isaiah 27:13; Zechariah 9:14; Zephaniah 1:16; Joel 2:1; Matthew 24:31; 1 Corinthians 15:52; Revelation 1:10; Revelation 4:1. Of God does not indicate the size or loudness of the trumpet, but merely that it is used in God's service. Comp. harps of God, Revelation 15:2; musical instruments of God, 1 Chronicles 16:42. The later Jews believed that God would use a trumpet to raise the dead.

    End of Quote

    Notice the fact that there is no mention of Rev 11 in the exegesis of either of these Scholars.
    I think you are missing the point here. The scholar you quoted confirmed that a trumpet "heralds great manifestations of God", which is what the last trump will do - the rising of the dead and rapture of the living.

    In medieval Europe, trumpets often herald a king's announcement or summon which no doubt was copied from the Bible. Your quote said in part "so here to summon God's elect together, preparatory to their glorification with Christ" this is what the last or 7th trumpt is for; the gathering of God's elect (the risen and the raptured) for glorification with Christ.

    Your scholar neither denied nor confirmed what the last trump is for. And the fact he didn't mention Rev 11 doesn't negate the fine exegesis on the table has proven.

  14. #119
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    Re: When will the OT saints be resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I think you are missing the point here. The scholar you quoted confirmed that a trumpet "heralds great manifestations of God", which is what the last trump will do - the rising of the dead and rapture of the living.

    In medieval Europe, trumpets often herald a king's announcement or summon which no doubt was copied from the Bible. Your quote said in part "so here to summon God's elect together, preparatory to their glorification with Christ" this is what the last or 7th trumpt is for; the gathering of God's elect (the risen and the raptured) for glorification with Christ.

    Your scholar neither denied nor confirmed what the last trump is for. And the fact he didn't mention Rev 11 doesn't negate the fine exegesis on the table has proven.
    The call of the Trump was to Come to the Mountain not them leaving the Mountain to Come to Earth(at the beginning of the Kingdom)

    Notice what Happened in Exodus 19-20 this wasn't them coming into the promise land this was them Gathering on the Mountain to meet God - As is First 1 Cor 15:52-55 and 1 Thes 4.

    Now when all the people saw the thunder and the flashes of lightning and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking, the people were afraid and trembled, and they stood far off 19 and said to Moses, “You speak to us, and we will listen; but do not let God speak to us, lest we die.” 20 Moses said to the people, “Do not fear, for God has come to test you, that the fear of him may be before you, that you may not sin.” 21The people stood far off, while Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was.

    The people were afraid so they Asked Moses to be their Mediator our Mediator is Christ who is the Father therefore like Moses (not the people) we actually Go before God in the NJ.



    IOW your clearly claiming the 7th trumpet is the Trumpet that announces - the Rapture, the second coming, and the Resurrection of the Saints ect. You do this by adding the specifics in all these passages into 1 trumpet event (Matthew 24, 1 Thes 4, 1 Cor 15, and Rev 11) this to me is just confusing as you mentioned the Marriage must precede the Second coming (according to Rev 19) which means the Rapture must precede the 7th trumpet yet you have these things overlapping.

  15. #120
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    Re: When will the OT saints be resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Yes the bible Clearly says Christ descends with a shout its him doing the shouting there is no other entity present.
    How logical is it that Jesus 'himself' will shout while descending from heaven? What are the angels for?

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