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Thread: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

  1. #316

    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I don't know where you all are getting the idea that death (in any form) persists in the next age. We know this isn't true for two reasons: 1) death is thrown into the lake of fire and 2) the last enemy is death, which Christ defeats.
    I see death and hades thrown into the LoF which most agree at least to the fact the flames are eternally burning, and the last enemy Christ defeats is spiritual death for the believer, yet the result of this is being able to partake of physical life forever through the resurrection and forever being with the Lord. I see the Lord as having already conquered physical death at the cross.

    I also see the death the bible speaks and warns us against as spiritual death, if its only physical death with the result being dead forevermore then does it not make the consequence of death, inconsequential? I mean, why do we need to be saved and why does a sheep not need to be saved? When a sheep dies it will cease to exist and if we ceased to exist what are we actually being saved from, if the answer is ceasing to exist then does it really matter any more than when an animal dies, if death is eternal separation from God then being saved from this death makes sense to me.

  2. #317
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Hey all, I'm gonna toss in a question that is outside the box... for this topic.

    First some scripture:

    Mt 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

    For all those tossed into the Lake of Fire, which is an event at the beginning of the age to come... how can this verse say God is not forgiving of those who do this specific sin, if once they are annihilated...

    1) There is no age to come for them. Why, annihilation means, there is NO age to come for all those tossed into the LoF. Which means, another alteration of the meaning of context of scripture.
    2) There is nothing left to "not be forgiven of".

    The whole premise of any annihilation doctrine changes the meaning of so many scriptures, any concerning: punishment everlasting, torment everlasting, gnashing of teeth, outer darkness, etc. All of the scriptures dealing with this, ALL of them have a changed meaning when viewed through any lens of annihilation.

    But the blasphemy verse... what's there to not forgive if, nothing (annihilated)?
    Slug1--out

    ~Are we a church of members (fans of Jesus) or a church of disciples (servants of Jesus)??~

    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  3. #318
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by chad View Post
    48 Where their soul [worm substituted for soul] dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    Guess what you have just done by trying to understand it like such?

    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


    No contradiction can be the truth. If the above Scripture clearly say the soul shall die, we then can't say the soul won't die.

    Ezekiel 18:20 does not say the following....The soul that sinneth, it shall NOT die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Which should I believe? The Bible that can never be wrong, thus can't contradict? Or someone who has to change what the text plainly and clearly says, in order for their doctrine to seemingly be legit? It should be pretty apparent based on Ezekiel 18:20, not to mention, Rev 20 calling it the 2nd death, as to why Jesus even mentioned the killing of the soul in Matt 10:28.

    I might be guilty of a lot of bad things during my life, but one thing I'm trying my best to not be guilty about is knowingly changing what something says as plain as day, such as the soul that sinneth, it shall die, by instead claiming that Scripture does not really say that, but it instead says, the soul that sinneth, it shall not die.

  4. #319
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Guess what you have just done by trying to understand it like such?

    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


    No contradiction can be the truth. If the above Scripture clearly say the soul shall die, we then can't say the soul won't die.

    Ezekiel 18:20 does not say the following....The soul that sinneth, it shall NOT die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Which should I believe? The Bible that can never be wrong, thus can't contradict? Or someone who has to change what the text plainly and clearly says, in order for their doctrine to seemingly be legit? It should be pretty apparent based on Ezekiel 18:20, not to mention, Rev 20 calling it the 2nd death, as to why Jesus even mentioned the killing of the soul in Matt 10:28.

    I might be guilty of a lot of bad things during my life, but one thing I'm trying my best to not be guilty about is knowingly changing what something says as plain as day, such as the soul that sinneth, it shall die, by instead claiming that Scripture does not really say that, but it instead says, the soul that sinneth, it shall not die.
    Dave, when you apply context, the soul that dies, is talking about the everlasting second death it experiences forevermore once it's tossed in the LoF (or the second death). The soul "dies" in that place and it is everlasting.
    Slug1--out

    ~Are we a church of members (fans of Jesus) or a church of disciples (servants of Jesus)??~

    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    IMO those that teach ETC, they are really teaching, probably don't realize it though, two resurrections of the wicked. To try and illustrate this, in this life when one dies, the body remains dead as can be until it is raised from the ground on resurrection day. Now the body is fully alive again when this happens, even in the case of the wicked. With the wicked in mind, and that we are told the soul that sinneth, it shall die, well guess what? When the wicked are raised they are no longer dead at this point. If the soul is killed, it has to be killed after they are raised. The same way the body remained fully dead until it is raised, the soul after having been killed would have to resurrected again in order for it to no longer be dead anymore. There is clearly no such thing as two resurrections of the wicked. And I bet you the farm, those that teach etc, even after me explaining it like this, they still won't get it or don't won't to get it, because to get it would mean having to admit their doctrine might not be legit after all.

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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Dave, when you apply context, the soul that dies, is talking about the everlasting second death it experiences forevermore once it's tossed in the LoF (or the second death). The soul "dies" in that place and it is everlasting.
    IMO I just proved that wrong via my last post. Because like I pointed out, once the wicked are raised, they are no longer dead at that point. That has to mean the death of their soul has to come after they have been raised. When the body dies in this age, do you really think it could be tormented and fully aware of what was happening to it after physical death? The same concept would have to apply to the soul as well once it is killed, otherwise it really wasn't killed then, was it?.

  7. #322
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    IMO I just proved that wrong via my last post. Because like I pointed out, once the wicked are raised, they are no longer dead at that point. That has to mean the death of their soul has to come after they have been raised. When the body dies in this age, do you really think it could be tormented and fully aware of what was happening to it after physical death? The same concept would have to apply to the soul as well once it is killed, otherwise it really wasn't killed then, was it?.
    Are they raised for everlasting "life" with Christ, or for everlasting "death" apart from Christ?

    Yes, when raised after physical death they are fully aware because they are NOW spiritual, otherwise what is the point of a judgement if they are unaware after they die physically?

    Unless you are trying to say the "physical" part of a person is unaware after death...
    Slug1--out

    ~Are we a church of members (fans of Jesus) or a church of disciples (servants of Jesus)??~

    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  8. #323
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Mt 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
    So they won't be forgiven in this life or the next; they will not be pardoned from being thrown into LoF and destroyed. I don't fully understand the issue you're raising with this verse.

    - Person commits blasphemy, they are not forgiven.
    - Person dies.
    - Person is resurrected for judgment.
    - Person stands before God, they are not forgiven.
    - Person is thrown into the LoF and permanently destroyed.

    How does Mt 12:32 and a literal destruction change this order?
    Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone.
    The Lord is at hand; do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
    And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Ph 4

  9. #324

    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    QUOTE=Lezza;3386662

    Hi Chad,


    Words have meaning within a context. Nobody denies that the word everlasting means forever just like nobody denies that the word used for sheep means "sheep". But sheep in the context of Jesus' followers has a different meaning than sheep in the context of a woolly farm animal.

    I agree, sheep can be more than the wooly animal. Sheep can apply to believers in Christ.

    (John 10:14 NIV) "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me--
    (John 10:15 NIV) just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep.



    You say that, but you're the one assuming that eternal fire must refer to duration because the word eternal appears therein whereas scripture itself uses the words eternal fire, in a different way that you do.

    The definition of Eternal fire is not from what I have assumed, but what is written and defined in Scripture.

    (Jude 1:7 KJV) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    Eternal G166. aionios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

    Fire G 4442. pur, poor; a prim. word; "fire" (lit. or fig., spec. lightning):--fiery, fire.



    This is question begging, Chad. You can't read some future warning into jude and then use that assumption as evidence that Jude isn't talking about the past destruction of the city.
    Moreover the actual text doesn't allow it, because it states that "Sodom and Gomorrah serves as an example". How can Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example if the example hasn't happened yet?

    The bible clearly writes that the events of Sodom and Gomorrah happened and Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed as written in Genesis 13:10.

    And as Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire, Jude 1:7 it writes it is an example of the eternal fire.

    The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah definitely happened, so it is indeed valid that it can be used as an example to show something in the future. Imo, Jude 1:7 is a future warning regarding the lake of fire. What in scripture does it describe eternal fire, imo – the lake of fire.

    (Jude 1:7 KJV) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.



    Sure, but I'm willing to bet that you're not consistent about what you take literally in Revelation. Do you believe there'll be a real dragon, a real prostitute and a real leopard/bear/lion chimaira in the future? Do you believe that Jesus' tongue is really made of a sword? If not then what exegetical warrant do you offer for taking the lake of fire literally but not the other elements in the vision? You have to make a case otherwise I can only conclude that you're cherry picking from Revelation because your doctrine needs it.

    There is a lot of symbolism in the book of revelation. Not all is symbolism. Imo, the lake of fire is not symbolism.

    Even if that were the case in the visionary image. What does that prove about the interpretation of the vision. You must understand, I'm not denying that John saw a vision and in the vision the beast and the false prohet is tormented eternally. The question is what does it mean. If we look in Daniel we see similar imagery and in Daniel the imagery is interpreted as referring to kingdoms and dominions coming to an end.

    John was given a vision from Christ Jesus. He was told to record what he saw and write it down. In the vision he saw the lake of fire which the beast and the false prophet are cast into (Rev 19:20). The devil was cast into the lake of fire and the beast, false prophet and devil are tormented for ever (Rev 20:10).

    Death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:14) and whosoever was not found in the book of like was cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

    Imo, it means that that devil and his angels that follow him, the beast and false prophet (whatever you determine the beast and the false prophet to be), death and hell and all whosoever was not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire.


    Isa 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."[/QUOTE]

    (Isa 66:24 KJV) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

    Abhorrence H1860. dera'own, der-aw-one'; or dera'own, day-raw-one'; from an unused root (mean. to repulse); an object of aversion:--abhorring, contempt.

    JBF-U Commentary

    For their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched (Mar_9:44; Mar_9:46; Mar_9:48) - image of hell, from bodies left unburied in the valley of Hinnom (whence comes Gehenna, or hell, south of Jerusalem), where a perpetual fire was kept to consume the refuse thrown there ( Isa_30:33 ).

    It shall not be inconsistent with true love for the godly to look with satisfaction on God's vengeance on the wicked (Rev_14:10).

    The godly shall then be, in holy abhorrence of sin and jealousy for the vindication of God's justice, entirely of one mind with God (1Sa_16:1). This constitutes their unity and fellowship with God ( Joh_17:21; Joh_17:23).

  10. #325

    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    My reply was meant to be a joke, a humorous response to Davids post. I would never substitute words in scripture that way and replace the word worm with soul. I apologize to anyone who did not understand what I was doing.


    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by chad View Post
    48 Where their soul [worm substituted for soul] dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

    Guess what you have just done by trying to understand it like such?


    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


    No contradiction can be the truth. If the above Scripture clearly say the soul shall die, we then can't say the soul won't die.

    Ezekiel 18:20 does not say the following....The soul that sinneth, it shall NOT die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Which should I believe? The Bible that can never be wrong, thus can't contradict? Or someone who has to change what the text plainly and clearly says, in order for their doctrine to seemingly be legit? It should be pretty apparent based on Ezekiel 18:20, not to mention, Rev 20 calling it the 2nd death, as to why Jesus even mentioned the killing of the soul in Matt 10:28.

    I might be guilty of a lot of bad things during my life, but one thing I'm trying my best to not be guilty about is knowingly changing what something says as plain as day, such as the soul that sinneth, it shall die, by instead claiming that Scripture does not really say that, but it instead says, the soul that sinneth, it shall not die.

  11. #326
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by chad View Post
    My reply was meant to be a joke, a humorous response to Davids post. I would never substitute words in scripture that way and replace the word worm with soul. I apologize to anyone who did not understand what I was doing.
    My bad then. Sorry for the misunderstanding on my part. Wasn't your fault. It was my fault for not paying better attention as to what kind of point of was being made and for what reason.

  12. #327
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    So they won't be forgiven in this life or the next; they will not be pardoned from being thrown into LoF and destroyed. I don't fully understand the issue you're raising with this verse.

    - Person commits blasphemy, they are not forgiven.
    - Person dies.
    - Person is resurrected for judgment.
    - Person stands before God, they are not forgiven.
    - Person is thrown into the LoF and permanently destroyed.

    How does Mt 12:32 and a literal destruction change this order?
    Because the verse is that they are not forgiven DURING this age and also, not DURING the age to come. If annihilated, they don't experience the age to come... negating the meaning of the verse.

    The verse is about "it's a bad" thing to be NOT forgiven DURING the age to come, but if annihilated... who cares. The verse loses all impact and is rendered useless.
    Slug1--out

    ~Are we a church of members (fans of Jesus) or a church of disciples (servants of Jesus)??~

    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  13. #328

    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    With the wicked in mind, and that we are told the soul that sinneth, it shall die, well guess what?
    This verse does not mean that the soul is "killed" but that it is separated from God and has no hope of eternal life.

    When the wicked are raised they are no longer dead at this point. If the soul is killed, it has to be killed after they are raised.
    There is a resurrection unto damnation, which means that the souls and spirits of those who were in Hades are rejoined with their bodies to be finally judged and cast into the Lake of Fire. The "death" of bodies and souls in Hell is actually the second death -- eternal separation from God.

    The same way the body remained fully dead until it is raised, the soul after having been killed would have to resurrected again in order for it to no longer be dead anymore. There is clearly no such thing as two resurrections of the wicked.
    No, there are no two resurrections for the wicked or the unsaved, but you are clearly misunderstanding the matter.

  14. #329
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Because the verse is that they are not forgiven DURING this age and also, not DURING the age to come.
    "During?" Either God forgives you or He doesn't - if they stand before God and He does not forgive them, then they are not forgiven. How does this change their punishment afterwards?

    Honestly this doesn't relate to either of our positions because we agree that the person is going to be judged prior to being destroyed or burning forever... right? So we both agree that the wicked person is not going to be pardoned at judgment. He won't be forgiven in this life, and won't be forgiven in next life in both Annihilation and ECT. The only position Mt. 12:32 refutes is Universalism.
    Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone.
    The Lord is at hand; do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
    And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Ph 4

  15. #330
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    "During?" Either God forgives you or He doesn't - if they stand before God and He does not forgive them, then they are not forgiven. How does this change their punishment afterwards?
    What punishment? We're talking about annihilation right where there is absolutely NO punishment? Or are they punished afterwards?

    Honestly this doesn't relate to either of our positions because we agree that the person is going to be judged prior to being destroyed or burning forever... right? So we both agree that the wicked person is not going to be pardoned at judgment. He won't be forgiven in this life, and won't be forgiven in next life in both Annihilation and ECT. The only position Mt. 12:32 refutes is Universalism.
    Agreeded, accept for, To be on board (aligned) with God and about the punishment He warns people to be fearful of (and that you just mentioned), is because the punishment is experienced. If not experienced, then there is NO punishment. There IS no age to come of punishment for them "if" they are annihilated.

    Lets make a hoaky example... the principle of a school finds two boys guilty of fighting during lunch, they are cast out of his office and tossed into detention... but instead of experiencing punishment, they are disintegrated. Did they get punished?

    NO... there IS NO punishment if they don't experience punishment.

    With God, the punishment is eternal and experienced eternally.
    Slug1--out

    ~Are we a church of members (fans of Jesus) or a church of disciples (servants of Jesus)??~

    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



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