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Thread: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

  1. #331
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    What punishment? We're talking about annihilation right where there is absolutely NO punishment?
    The destruction is the punishment. Is not execution for a capital offense a punishment??

    This goes back to my main point that we need to be focusing on what the Bible says and not what we think should be the case. God says the punishment is death/destruction. So why don't we try to understand what that means instead of looking for workarounds? Well, 2 Peter 2:6 and Jude 1:7 cite the destruction account of Sodom and Gomorrah as examples for the coming punishment. In reading Genesis 19, what indicates to you that the punishment God imposed on S&G was continuous suffering rather than a literal destruction?

    Am I wrong to read 2 Peter 2:6 and then go to Gen. 19 and conclude that this like what God will do in the future; what, quote "is going to happen to the ungodly?" Please help me understand why my reasoning is flawed here, I am consistently ignored when I bring this up and all I am doing is reading what is written.

    There IS no age to come of punishment for them "if" they are annihilated.
    They are destroyed in that age to come, not this age. I thought we were on the same page there? It's not that they die and then never face the resurrection of judgment, obviously.
    Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone.
    The Lord is at hand; do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
    And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Ph 4

  2. #332
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Huh? The destruction is the punishment. Is not execution for a capital offense a punishment??
    Sure but we're talking about God's punishment, not man punishing man in a carnal manner. God will punish man in a spiritual manner. Thus why I ask many times... from man's perspective or God's perspective? Man executing man is carnal in nature. But God's punishment is vastly different and you NEED to see this from His position of righteousness.



    I'm saying they are destroyed in that age to come, not this age. Isn't that obvious? I'm very confused...
    The soul (people), AFTER they are cast away from God, INTO the Lake of Fire (the second death) to BEGIN the punishment during the age to come... by "destroyed," you are saying that this punishment, DOESN'T happen. That they won't experience punishment in the next age, Right?
    Slug1--out

    ~Are we a church of members (fans of Jesus) or a church of disciples (servants of Jesus)??~

    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    You completely miss the context and intent of the warning about Sodom and Gomorrha's destruction.
    It wasn't the cities, brick and mortar, and streets, and buildings; it was the wicked people in them that were destroyed; and are eternally suffering for their wickedness the scriptures are referring to.
    I agree that the Angel's intent was to destroy the inhabitants, the question is what is Jude referring to.
    If the attack with fire in the Old testament isn't what Jude was referring to, as you claim, then why does Jude mention the cities in the first place? If it was really only about the sinners, then Jude could have easily said "sinners from old have been tormented with eternal fire in Sheol". Jude could have said "Goliath and Pharoah serves as an examples of being tormented in Sheol with eternal fire". Why pick two cities that we destroyed by fire if he didn't want to talk about the fire that actually destroyed the cities?
    Nothing in the context supports your view.

    II Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
    This verse goes even further against your interpretation, unless you're prepared to argue that those in Sheol are being burnt to ashes? I bet the cities and the inhabitants were burnt to ashes during the events that are recording in scripture though.

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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    So the unbeliever has to be resurrected so he can see what hes going to miss out on? If they didn't realise what they were going to miss out on and know about the way to eternal life then how is that fair?
    I don't think the unbeliever "has to be" resurrected for the sole purpose of seeing what they're going to miss out on. They're also resurrected to account for their deeds, there is a judgement after all. I don't think unbelievers will have any excuse for the same reason traditionalists believe unbelievers don't have any excuses.

    Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
    Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Sure but we're talking about God's punishment
    Yes... and God explicitly says the punishment is death/destruction. So since we are contested on what "destruction" means, I am citing Peter and Jude who say that it is the type of destruction recounted in Genesis 19. I noticed you omitted this again, and maybe it's not something you (or anyone it seems) want to talk about, but I really would appreciate a response to this specific part of my confusion if I am the one confused.
    Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone.
    The Lord is at hand; do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
    And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Ph 4

  6. #336
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    The above as defined by someone bending the definition toward their viewpoint.
    You say this but then you go about offering a definition of death that everybody claims is how the bible defines death but nobody can seem to actually exegete from scripture. It is simply claim that death is a separation of the body and soul, and that the second death is the separation of the soul from God.

    Anyone who is without Christ, receives the wages of death; both deaths. both separations.
    The problem is that the unsaved according to you view are already dead in the second sense since they're already separated from God. So the second death is really just a continuation of the separation that unbelievers are already in. According to this view Christians before they are saved, and unbelievers alike, are also second-death dead, before they are first-death dead. The second death, then precedes the first death.

    The other problem is this death defined as separation makes hash of the atonement. If the real problem is man's spiritual separation from God, then why did Jesus have to die physically? Why is it that Jesus' physical resurrection is the evidence that the problem has been dealt with if the problem isn't death in it's everyday sense, but this idea of separation?

    The only place you'll find a direct quote of death being equated to separation is in the writings of Plato and one can trace clearly in church history where these idea crept into the church, through Tertullian who held Plato in high esteem and often quoted him.

    That's why Jude called those eternally in the blackness and darkness forever, the twice dead.
    Jude's statement is perfectly consistent with my view that the unsaved will be killed.

    Not cessation from existence; but eternal separation from the direct presence of the God they have no desire to follow and accept.
    I have never argued for cessation of existence in this entire discussion. I am a conditionalist, who believes that immortality is a gift to the saved alone. What happens to the unsaved is that they will die. Whether ashes, ectoplasm, roasted marshmallow, rotting corpses or nothing at all remains, is to me completely irrelevant.

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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    An apologist using the fallacy of a strawman? For we all believe the wages of sin is death.
    It's an interesting accusation this one, because if I had said: "The other group believes that the consequences of sin is eternal conscious torment" then it wouldn't be a straw-man would it? So while my statement is admittedly a little cheeky, hence the wink, it's not a straw-man at all. You might say I'm equivocating "wages of sin" in the sense that Paul uses it, vs "wages of sin" as in consequences of sin, and that I'll happily admit, but there is still a point to be made.

    Some here have accused us of bending scripture to fit our view, but it seems they're so accustomed to reading eternal conscious torment into words like death, perish, life, ashes, Gehenna etc. that it doesn't even register that there is a large scale replacement of words going on here. And when asked for exegetical warrant for this replacement, the responses seem to be tenuous at best.

    So the rhetorical point behind my cheeky comment is why should we replace death, with some special theological definition? Why can't it just mean death? A case needs to be made for this and it needs to be based on more than merely asserting that death means separation.

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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Yes... and God explicitly says the punishment is death/destruction. So since we are contested on what "destruction" means, I am citing Peter and Jude who say that it is the type of destruction recounted in Genesis 19. I noticed you omitted this again, and maybe it's not something you (or anyone it seems) want to talk about, but I really would appreciate a response to this specific part of my confusion if I am the one confused.
    Just a question. Is the example given of S&G given in Scripture not an example of God who punishes and not only the manner in which He punishes. The flood is mentioned in each of these cases and the manner of punishment between the flood and S&G could not be further apart.

    I believe that the problem we have with the second death is that we have no way of comprehending what and how it would be. We are familiar with the first physical death and to us it is the only death we know. It is the end according to the living. Still we know that it is not the end for the dead. They are still in some sort of state, existing to wait upon the day of judgement. So to say that punishment would be death, does not imply that they cease to exist. It did not happen with the death of the living here on earth, so why would it be the case with the second death? All that cease to exist with the first death is the body. The fact that death is also thrown into the LoF to me also imply that the cessation of the body is also destroyed, there would be no cessation of body or soul in the second death. This is why the punishment would be eternal, because there is no escaping from it.

  9. #339
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Hi Chad,

    The definition of Eternal fire is not from what I have assumed, but what is written and defined in Scripture.
    (Jude 1:7 KJV) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
    Okay but if we let scripture define what eternal fire means then it doesn't mean fire that burns it's inhabitants eternally, precisely because the event that Jude refers to, is an event where eternal fire was poured out on two cities and those cities aren't still burning. So if we let the context guide us, then eternal fire refers to a quality of divine-ness not a quantitave statement on how long it burns.


    Eternal G166. aionios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

    Fire G 4442. pur, poor; a prim. word; "fire" (lit. or fig., spec. lightning):--fiery, fire.
    Repeating the lexical definition doesn't help your case, because lexicons do not take context into account. Take another example, "Lamb of God".
    The lexical definition would be something like this:

    Lamb = Young sheep
    Of = Belonging to
    God = Divine Being.

    Therefore Lamb of God must mean "sheep belonging to divine being". No, the phrase Lamb of God is a theological term referring to Christ. It not the kind of word that you can split into it's root etymology and assume you've done good exegesis. Why is that? Because the context tells us that we're not talking about a farm animal.

    Likewise you can't split eternal fire into its root etymology (eternal and fire) and claim you've done exegesis, because the very same expression is used elsewhere where it doesn't refer to a fire that is still burning.

    There is a lot of symbolism in the book of revelation. Not all is symbolism. Imo, the lake of fire is not symbolism.
    This logic is deeply flawed. You can't say "All is not symbolism therefore Lake of Fire is not symbolism". You can't assert that the Lake of Fire is literal even though it appears in a vision, just because other parts of Revelation may be literal. A case needs to be made.

    Imo, it means that that devil and his angels that follow him, the beast and false prophet (whatever you determine the beast and the false prophet to be), death and hell and all whosoever was not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire.
    Okay, and I appreciate your candidness that you prefix your statement with "Imo", which it is. It's an opinion, but why should I accept your opinion? A case needs to be made.

    JBF-U Commentary

    For their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched (Mar_9:44; Mar_9:46; Mar_9:48) - image of hell, from bodies left unburied in the valley of Hinnom (whence comes Gehenna, or hell, south of Jerusalem), where a perpetual fire was kept to consume the refuse thrown there ( Isa_30:33 ).

    It shall not be inconsistent with true love for the godly to look with satisfaction on God's vengeance on the wicked (Rev_14:10).

    The godly shall then be, in holy abhorrence of sin and jealousy for the vindication of God's justice, entirely of one mind with God (1Sa_16:1). This constitutes their unity and fellowship with God ( Joh_17:21; Joh_17:23).
    Who is JBF-U?

    Obviously theologians' commentaries will largely support the ECT position because most theologians are ECT proponents. I have no doubt about that. But unless these commentaries come with some exegesis it's just an opinion. Isaiah 66:24 specifically describes worms feeding on dead bodies. I have also demonstrated how scavengers are often used in the old testament to denote utter destruction, such as Jer 7:33 and every time these images of scavengers are referenced, it's in relation to corpses, not people being consciously tormented.

    Jer 7:33 And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth, and none will frighten them away.

    But even the commentary itself where it refers to scripture those scriptures are in my favour.
    Dead bodies were left in Gehenna, where fires consumed them, because Gehenna was a place of slaughter. Dead bodies were consumed by worms and fires. The ECT view though is that the fire won't actually consume (was it your, Chad, that referred to the inhabitants burning but not burning up like burning bush?)
    Is there any indication from the passages that the commentary references that Gehenna is anything but a place full of decaying, dead bodies?

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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Yes... and God explicitly says the punishment is death/destruction.
    Does God also say this is everlasting?

    So since we are contested on what "destruction" means, I am citing Peter and Jude who say that it is the type of destruction recounted in Genesis 19. I noticed you omitted this again, and maybe it's not something you (or anyone it seems) want to talk about, but I really would appreciate a response to this specific part of my confusion if I am the one confused.
    What about talking about how it is everlasting?

    Can ya point me to the post(s) where Gen 19, Jude, and Peter verses are raised so I can assure myself of the proper context and what God's meaning/perspective is before I make a comment? Thanks.
    Slug1--out

    ~Are we a church of members (fans of Jesus) or a church of disciples (servants of Jesus)??~

    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  11. #341

    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lezza View Post
    Okay but if we let scripture define what eternal fire means then it doesn't mean fire that burns it's inhabitants eternally, precisely because the event that Jude refers to, is an event where eternal fire was poured out on two cities and those cities aren't still burning.
    No those cities are not still burning, and that is precisely why one must ask what "eternal" means in this context.

    While the cities were destroyed, and their inhabitants were killed, that was not the end of the matter. Their bodies were burned up but their souls and spirits went to Hades (the place of departed souls). As we know from Scripture they are in a fiery torment in Hades, just as the rich man was in the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus. He "being in torments" said "I am tormented in this flame" and begged for a drop of water to cool his tongue.

    But that is not the end of the matter either, for we read in Revelation 20 that those is Hades are ultimately consigned to the Lake of Fire, a place of eternal fire and brimstone, eternal torment, and eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    So when Jude speaks about sinners "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" he is taking all of this into account, not ignorantly stating that the supernatural fire which burned up Sodom & Gomorrah is still burning.

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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Hey all, I'm gonna toss in a question that is outside the box... for this topic.

    First some scripture:

    Mt 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

    For all those tossed into the Lake of Fire, which is an event at the beginning of the age to come... how can this verse say God is not forgiving of those who do this specific sin, if once they are annihilated...

    1) There is no age to come for them. Why, annihilation means, there is NO age to come for all those tossed into the LoF. Which means, another alteration of the meaning of context of scripture.
    2) There is nothing left to "not be forgiven of".

    The whole premise of any annihilation doctrine changes the meaning of so many scriptures, any concerning: punishment everlasting, torment everlasting, gnashing of teeth, outer darkness, etc. All of the scriptures dealing with this, ALL of them have a changed meaning when viewed through any lens of annihilation.

    But the blasphemy verse... what's there to not forgive if, nothing (annihilated)?
    Unless I'm missing something here, anyone cast into the LOF obviously hasn't been forgiven, regardless, otherwise they wouldn't be cast into there to begin with. Does that mean every single person cast into the LOF, it will be because they blasphemed the Holy Ghost?

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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Unless I'm missing something here, anyone cast into the LOF obviously hasn't been forgiven, regardless, otherwise they wouldn't be cast into there to begin with. Does that mean every single person cast into the LOF, it will be because they blasphemed the Holy Ghost?
    No and why would only blasphemers be tossed in? The point is concerning what the verse is talking about and if there is no NEXT age for blasphemers due to annihilation (based on that doctrine) then the verse is one that is utilized to refute annihilation. If blasphemers are annihilated, there IS NO age to come for them, making that verse pointless... if any annihilation doctrine were to be accurate interpretation of scripture.
    Slug1--out

    ~Are we a church of members (fans of Jesus) or a church of disciples (servants of Jesus)??~

    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    No those cities are not still burning, and that is precisely why one must ask what "eternal" means in this context.
    Again, "eternal" doesn't mean "time without end"; it means "permanent", "enduring", or another related meaning.

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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    No and why would only blasphemers be tossed in? The point is concerning what the verse is talking about and if there is no NEXT age for blasphemers due to annihilation (based on that doctrine) then the verse is one that is utilized to refute annihilation. If blasphemers are annihilated, there IS NO age to come for them, making that verse pointless... if any annihilation doctrine were to be accurate interpretation of scripture.
    But do you see our problem Ken? Death isn't death; destruction isn't destruction; fire doesn't consume; continuous torture; excessive sentencing that doesn't fit the crime; life isn't that valuable etc. I'm just asking . . .

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