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Thread: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

  1. #346
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    No and why would only blasphemers be tossed in? The point is concerning what the verse is talking about and if there is no NEXT age for blasphemers due to annihilation (based on that doctrine) then the verse is one that is utilized to refute annihilation. If blasphemers are annihilated, there IS NO age to come for them, making that verse pointless... if any annihilation doctrine were to be accurate interpretation of scripture.
    But still, anyone cast into the LOF obviously hasn't been forgiven, regardless. If the only unpardonable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, and not everyone cast into the LOF has ever done that, yet they suffer ECT for forever, regardless, how does that not add up to that they have committed unpardonable sins? But the Bible only gives the impression the only unpardonable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. Could it be possible that those who have committed this sin, they too will be tormented day and night along with satan, but all other humans cast into the LOF, their soul is killed there instead? Maybe there's more than one judgment then? When Christ returns, it is the goats who receive everlasting punishment, yet this judgment is not even the GWTJ. Then when the GWTJ occurs much later, those that are cast into the LOF, their fate is different from the goats, their fate is death of their souls. Though I fully realize no one can see this like I do, meaning whom the sheep and goats are referring to in Matt 25, I'm convinced the goats in Matt 25, these are the professed servants of Christ whom Jesus will tell to depart from Him, per Matt 7 for one.

  2. #347
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    But do you see our problem Ken? Death isn't death; destruction isn't destruction; fire doesn't consume; continuous torture; excessive sentencing that doesn't fit the crime; life isn't that valuable etc. I'm just asking . . .
    Especially if one died as a teen not accepting Christ before they died. They for sure need to be tormented forever and ever, at least that's what the ECT camp would have us to believe.

  3. #348
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    But do you see our problem Ken? Death isn't death; destruction isn't destruction; fire doesn't consume; continuous torture; excessive sentencing that doesn't fit the crime; life isn't that valuable etc. I'm just asking . . .
    and that is where Soteriology comes in, and Annihilationism cannot stand.

    There is no such thing from God's eternal divine perspective as 'excessive sentencing' or 'light sentencing'..

    Humans are eternally sentenced completely based on their redemption from sin by Christ or their lack of redemption from sin without Christ.

    All sins are eternal removed for those in Christ.
    All sins remain evermore for those without Christ' redemption.

    One tiny unforgiven sin separates a person eternally.
    No such thing as excessive sentencing.

    You get what you choose, God is not a cosmic rapist.

    He gives you the eternal abode you willfully choose in rejection of His Son.

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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    To die without the remptive forgiveness and cleansing from sin by Christ in rejecting of the drawing of the HS is the Unpadonable sin.
    All those not belonging to Christ are eternally damned by their unrepentant sin eternally i pardoned.

    The only pardon from sin is Christ.

    There is no sin worse than rejecting Christ.

  5. #350
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Especially if one died as a teen not accepting Christ before they died. They for sure need to be tormented forever and ever, at least that's what the ECT camp would have us to believe.
    this assumes they had no chance and/or God is not sovereign and righteous enough to know their hearts and decide justly.

    It pleads on misguided human emotions and a lack of understanding of the salvation of Christ that is available to all men....whether you know or when He offers/provides it or not.

    You lack of intuition or understanding of how He provides the opportunity of salvation doesn't remove God's providence.

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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    this assumes they had no chance and/or God is not sovereign and righteous enough to know their hearts and decide justly.

    It pleads on misguided human emotions and a lack of understanding of the salvation of Christ that is available to all men....whether you know or when He offers/provides it or not.

    You lack of intuition or understanding of how He provides the opportunity of salvation doesn't remove God's providence.
    Maybe when this day comes where souls are cast into the LOF to be tormented forever, even though they may have lived only 14 years in life, maybe some of you should volunteer to do the casting in of these teens, since it is your camp that desires they be tormented forever and ever, and not that God might desire that as well.

  7. #352
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    When I was growing up there was a boy around the same age as me who was born with a terminal illness and that doctors decided he likely wouldn't live more than 16 years. Actually that's how long he ended up living. And that in the meantime he smoked pot like some of the rest of us did. He likely smoked it for different reasons. Maybe to deal with the pains associated with his illness, and maybe to try and escape the reality he wasn't going to live very long in life. This person wasn't a Christian nor do I ever recall him even talking about God. He may indeed get cast into the LOF on judgment day. And let's say that he does. He already had to suffer in life from birth, so when he gets thrown into the LOF, assuming that he does, this time around he is now 100% deserving of being tormented forever and ever. Anyone that thinks this will be the case, I don't even know how you can sleep at night thinking God is this utterly cruel that He would find it perfectly justifiable to torment someone such as this 16 year old forever and ever.

  8. #353
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Maybe when this day comes where souls are cast into the LOF to be tormented forever, even though they may have lived only 14 years in life, maybe some of you should volunteer to do the casting in of these teens, since it is your camp that desires they be tormented forever and ever, and not that God might desire that as well.
    Anyone who refuses the redemption of Christ over the unforgiven sins of the world earn their full wishes of not being with Christ for eternity.

    No one of the traditional Christian faith wants anyone to spend eternity apart from Christ, dead in their sins, tormented and gnashing of teeth; however we are not the righteous judge of sin, only the Lord is, and as His word says, "there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we can be saved.'

    Sadness, sorrow, pity, and emotionalism never forgive the eternal consequence of sin, --only repentence through the shed blood of Christ finds repemption, and worthiness.

  9. #354
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    When I was growing up there was a boy around the same age as me who was born with a terminal illness and that doctors decided he likely wouldn't live more than 16 years. Actually that's how long he ended up living. And that in the meantime he smoked pot like some of the rest of us did. He likely smoked it for different reasons. Maybe to deal with the pains associated with his illness, and maybe to try and escape the reality he wasn't going to live very long in life. This person wasn't a Christian nor do I ever recall him even talking about God. He may indeed get cast into the LOF on judgment day. And let's say that he does. He already had to suffer in life from birth, so when he gets thrown into the LOF, assuming that he does, this time around he is now 100% deserving of being tormented forever and ever. Anyone that thinks this will be the case, I don't even know how you can sleep at night thinking God is this utterly cruel that He would find it perfectly justifiable to torment someone such as this 16 year old forever and ever.
    God isn't cruel, God provided the way for all humans to be saved and to spend eternity with Him.
    That some do not, is not cruel, God is clear on the consequences of unrepentant sin.

    Thankfully He, not you, knows the deep heart of that 16 yo boy; and not you; and the Lord alone knows the boys eternal state and not you, and judges and redeems or condemns in perfect, holy, righteousness.

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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    God isn't cruel, God provided the way for all humans to be saved and to spend eternity with Him.
    That some do not, is not cruel, God is clear on the consequences of unrepentant sin.

    Thankfully He, not you, knows the deep heart of that 16 yo boy; and not you; and the Lord alone knows the boys eternal state and not you, and judges and redeems or condemns in perfect, holy, righteousness.
    Amen and Hooah!

    I can say alcohol was the "reason" for my brothers death. Over the years we discussed God, Christ, salvation, but my brother never proclaimed Christ to me. Mom even sent him a Bible some years before he passed. I usually sent him CDs of various Christian music of a music style that I knew he'd like but in listening, receive the message of Christ.

    The weekend I clear out his apartment after his death, I was thinking on how I hadn't had any verbal commo with my brother for about 6 months. His death was an actual surprise because he'd been free of alcoholism going on about 2 years. But, as I found out, he decided to have a beer one night and after about 6 weeks of being drunk, went cold turkey and the physical battle the body goes through when stopping like that was too much. That day I entered his apartment, I found the Bible mom had sent him, open on the table next to his recliner chair, some verses were underlined and several pages book marked with pieces of paper. I asked mom if she had underlined any scripture and John 3:16-18 was the only one's she underlined. There were many others underlined.

    Only God knows because I don't know as he never proclaimed to me about faith... but 6 months of not talking with him, is a long time where Christ may have been called out to...
    Slug1--out

    ~Are we a church of members (fans of Jesus) or a church of disciples (servants of Jesus)??~

    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  11. #356
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Just a question. Is the example given of S&G given in Scripture not an example of God who punishes and not only the manner in which He punishes.
    But Jude 1:7 says S&G is an example of "undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." 2 Peter 2:6 also uses S&G for the same point. Nothing in Gen. 19 indicates that "destruction" has a special or non-literal meaning. So am I wrong to understand "destruction" in the sense of S&G's destruction, when God says the wicked will be yet again destroyed with eternal fire? Peter even adds "rendered unto ashes" for his comparison.

    The flood is mentioned in each of these cases and the manner of punishment between the flood and S&G could not be further apart.
    The manner of punishment for both the Flood and S&G was literal destruction, and neither account imply that the punishment was anything different. So I struggle to understand why someone would conclude that when God says He will destroy the wicked again in the future - but permanently - that it needs an exotic definition.

    I believe that the problem we have with the second death is that we have no way of comprehending what and how it would be. We are familiar with the first physical death and to us it is the only death we know. It is the end according to the living. Still we know that it is not the end for the dead. They are still in some sort of state, existing to wait upon the day of judgement. So to say that punishment would be death, does not imply that they cease to exist. It did not happen with the death of the living here on earth, so why would it be the case with the second death?
    Mt. 10:28 I believe speaks to this, teaching that with the first death only the body dies - but God will kill both the body and the soul of the person with the second death. So there is no continuity of that person that goes on to a "second afterlife." Hope I'm communicating well. Mt. 10:28 is probably one of the most emphatic verses on this topic; the degree to which God destroys them, not just body but the very person himself.
    Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone.
    The Lord is at hand; do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
    And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Ph 4

  12. #357
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    But do you see our problem Ken? Death isn't death; destruction isn't destruction; fire doesn't consume; continuous torture; excessive sentencing that doesn't fit the crime; life isn't that valuable etc. I'm just asking . . .
    But "eternal punishment" IS eternal punishment... are we to attempt to refute what God says, based on some doctrines? Especially this one which confuses people as to what eternal punishment is all about? So stick to ONLY what God is saying and see eternal punishment from His perspective.

    Excessive sentencing that don't fit the crime... see right there, I KNOW you are not looking at this from God's perspective. You think because a person stole a pen from work got them landed in the Lake of Fire resulting in eternal punishment for that sin... doesn't fit the crime, correct?

    You are looking at it all wrong. That "crime" didn't get them tossed in. The lack of believing in God, rejecting Him, never repenting and seeking forgiveness SO THAT THEY MAY BE SAVED... is the reason for being eternally SEPARATED from God. They rejected Him, He's gonna reject them, He warns all of this. They aren't ultimately punished for stuff they stole, killed a person, had sex while not married, had sex with other people while married, for lying, for being a drunkard, taking the Lord's name in vein. They are ultimately punished for NOT choosing to CALL out to Christ. They never reaped the work of Christ and thus, they were judged as one who was never re-born in Christ.

    Please... I always ask, please look at the scriptures as God intends, FROM His perspective.
    Slug1--out

    ~Are we a church of members (fans of Jesus) or a church of disciples (servants of Jesus)??~

    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  13. #358
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Does God also say this is everlasting?
    Yes.

    Can ya point me to the post(s) where Gen 19, Jude, and Peter verses are raised so I can assure myself of the proper context and what God's meaning/perspective is before I make a comment? Thanks.
    #252, and I'll repost it here for convenience:

    2 Peter 2:6 and Jude 1:7 cite God's miraculous actions against Sodom and Gomorrah to define what He means by "destruction." Surely those cities were not hyperbolically destroyed? Peter even uses the phrase "rendered unto ashes." A reminder from Genesis 19:

    The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zoar. Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven. And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the Lord. And he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah and toward all the land of the valley, and he looked and, behold, the smoke of the land went up like the smoke of a furnace. So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, God remembered Abraham and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow when he overthrew the cities in which Lot had lived.

    Certainly not figurative, wouldn't you agree? It isn't that God only says the word "destroy", He gives us this account (and also the Flood in other places) as His definition so that it is inarguable what He means.


    My question again:

    2 Peter 2:6 and Jude 1:7 cite the destruction account of Sodom and Gomorrah as examples for the coming punishment. In reading Genesis 19, what indicates to you that the punishment God imposed on S&G was continuous suffering rather than a literal destruction? Am I wrong to read 2 Peter 2:6 and then go to Gen. 19 and conclude that this like what God will do in the future; what, quote "is going to happen to the ungodly?"
    Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone.
    The Lord is at hand; do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
    And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Ph 4

  14. #359
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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    God isn't cruel, God provided the way for all humans to be saved and to spend eternity with Him.
    That some do not, is not cruel, God is clear on the consequences of unrepentant sin.

    Thankfully He, not you, knows the deep heart of that 16 yo boy; and not you; and the Lord alone knows the boys eternal state and not you, and judges and redeems or condemns in perfect, holy, righteousness.
    What some of you may not realize, though you should if you have read some of my posts, I indeed believe in ECT, the fact I am fully convinced satan and his demons will be tormented forever and ever. Let's then say a case could be made for someone such as Hitler, that he too is deserving of ECT and this is exactly what he gets. I'm not agreeing he would, but as evil as he was, if any human was deserving of it, he would be top of the list for candidates. But why should a teen who may have just been rebellious at the time, hey a lot of us were likely rebellious teens, and that if this teen had the misfortune to die early in life as a teen, still assuming Hitler might suffer ECT, that these teens they suffer the same thing as Hitler does for all eternity though their sins in life couldn't possibly be as severe as the ones Hitler committed? I fail to understand why any of you would think God would be perfectly fine with this?

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    Re: Hell an everlasting never ending torment?

    There is no scale of sins, where few enough merit heaven.
    Goodness or lack of Hitler-esque evilness likewise, does not merit heaven.

    Again, Jesus is the only way.

    Any sinner who rejects the only way, has no other way.

    If simpathy, pity, fairness, emotionalism, or rationalization could save anyone; Christ would not have given up His life on Calvary for the sins of the people.

    Look to Christ, not failed man made reasoning.

    Also admit --you-- do not know the heart of that 16yo boy, and where he stood in his heart of hearts with the Lord at the moment he breathed his last....only Jesus almighty is qualified to know that.

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