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Thread: The Work of God

  1. #16
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    Re: The Work of God

    Quote Originally Posted by ICONBUSTERS View Post

    Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent (John 6:29).

    Among the many points of controversy swirling among professing Christians is this one.

    Does a Christian’s faith/belief in Christ originate with himself, (man being the cause), or is a Christian’s faith/belief in Christ the effect of a miraculous work of God in the hearts and minds of His Elect, (God being the cause)?

    Many, many sincere, sober and serious Christians hold to the theory which has man the cause of his faith.

    This ability to believe they attribute to the power of man’s free will which can either believe or not believe. Man makes the ultimate determination as to his final destiny.
    Wrong. There's so much wrong will your understanding, where to begin? The ability to believe comes from God. All are created and made with it. Some use the ability to be drawn to God, most do not. All are taught, not all learn. Those that learn of the Father WILL come to Jesus. Only those that are the Father's (drawn) are given to Jesus. All this in John 6, along with verse 29 above. Get your answers from context instead of injecting your theology into context.

    Here's an undeniable principle.
    Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

    So of course it's the work of God to believe. He created man with the ability for that very purpose. It's his design. When man follows his design his will is done according to his own good pleasure. That's what saith the Scriptures.

  2. #17

    Re: The Work of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Wrong. There's so much wrong will your understanding, where to begin? The ability to believe comes from God. All are created and made with it. Some use the ability to be drawn to God, most do not. All are taught, not all learn. Those that learn of the Father WILL come to Jesus. Only those that are the Father's (drawn) are given to Jesus. All this in John 6, along with verse 29 above. Get your answers from context instead of injecting your theology into context.

    Here's an undeniable principle.
    Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

    So of course it's the work of God to believe. He created man with the ability for that very purpose. It's his design. When man follows his design his will is done according to his own good pleasure. That's what saith the Scriptures.
    Sadly, your Pelagian denial of the Fall of Man and its devastating effects on all mankind is allowed to go unchecked by most on this board.

    Your views are shared by the Unitarians, a pseudo-Christian heretical denomination.

  3. #18

    Re: The Work of God

    Proof of Eternal Life

    In my first post I cited several Scriptures which prove saving faith the work of God.

    In my second post I cited several Scriptures which prove Christ finished the work given Him to do on Earth.

    Christ perfectly accomplished His Father’s will.

    And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day (John 6:39).

    Christ lost none and will never lose any given Him by the Father (John 10; 17).

    This critical divine truth vitiates all the well-meaning Christians’ theories which insist the Father’s eternal intention was to save all mankind, as was the mediatorial mission of Christ.

    Rather, it was quite the contrary.

    It was the Father’s eternal intention that Christ lay down His life for those sheep given Him by His Father.

    ….I lay down my life for the sheep….I give them eternal life and they shall never perish…..My Father which gave them me is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of the Father’s hand (John 10:15, 28-29).

    We can unequivocally conclude from this statement that those who perished were never given to Christ with the eternal intention of their salvation.

    I now ask the question, What is proof of eternal life?

    With irrefutable clarity, Jesus answers this vital question:

    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent (John 17:3).

    Knowing the true God and Jesus Christ is proof of one’s election unto eternal life.

    The knowledge of which Jesus speaks is not the historical knowledge which the demons possess (as well as many professing Christians).

    What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God (Mark 1:24)

    Rather, it is an intimate, personal relational knowledge which seeks to understand who God is, what God’s will is, and how He would have us serve Him.

    It is a knowledge which is grounded in obedience and a sincere love for God.

    And it is a knowledge which has its cause in the electing grace of God.

    All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him (Matthew 11:27).

    The Son reveals the Father, and the Father reveals the Son (Matthew 16:17).

    The world has not known the Father, only Christ has known Him (John 17:25).

    Jesus made known the Father to those given Him by the Father (John 17:6).

    Jesus promises He will continue to declare and make the Father known to those later generations of Elect (John 17:26).

    Furthermore, and most importantly, Jesus relates the revelation of the knowledge of God to the unconditional love of God:

    And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them (John 17:26).

    Herein lays further proof that God’s love cannot fail to save.

    Those whom He loves He gives revelation knowledge of Himself, which is their proof of eternal life.

    And that knowledge is always received and believed……”they have kept thy word” (John 17:6).

    It is the Paul’s prayer that the Father give the Ephesians the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him that they eyes of their understanding be enlightened to understand the supernatural origin of their faith which came from God, not themselves (Ephesians 1:18-20, 2:8-9).

    Is that not Christ's prayer for all His sheep?

    NEXT: Why did Christ constantly emphasize He was sent of God?

  4. #19
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    Re: The Work of God

    Quote Originally Posted by ICONBUSTERS View Post
    Sadly, your Pelagian denial of the Fall of Man and its devastating effects on all mankind is allowed to go unchecked by most on this board.

    Your views are shared by the Unitarians, a pseudo-Christian heretical denomination.
    All false accusations. I gave glory and honor to God for his awesome creation in bringing man to faith in him. Hardly heretical. I don't share your gnostic/mystical elitest view of the the gospel, but neither did Jesus, the apostles, or any of the early church fathers, and no, Augustine The Gnostic wasn't early.

  5. #20

    Re: The Work of God

    I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me (John 5:30).

    Time and again Jesus repeats the divine truth that is was the Father who sent Him.

    The Jews knew Jesus claimed God as His Father, and that infuriated them.

    But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
    18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God
    (John 5:17-18).

    Jesus was sent by God Almighty.

    Jesus was sent by the highest authority in the Universe.

    And this authority is infinitely capable of designing Christ’s mission so that its outcome would be exactly as He willed it to be.

    First, He would send the One who would have the wisdom and power to execute the mission perfectly.

    Second, the One sent would have the ability and desire to follow His instructions to the letter.

    Third, His mission would consist of saving those chosen by the Father, whom the Father loved.

    Fourth, the loss of one of God’s chosen, whom He loved, would result in the mission’s devastating failure.

    Fifth, failure is not an option.

    The Father had set before Jesus a daunting, seemingly impossible task.

    He must leave Heaven, take on human flesh, grow from baby to boy to man, live in a world dominated by sin and Satan, and never once stray from the Father’s will.

    And if that weren’t enough, He then had to face unbelief, hatred, persecution, and even execution – all the while remaining an innocent, righteous man.

    Here’s Where Things Get Sticky

    For reasons unfathomable to this writer, there is a sharp division among Christians regarding why Christ was sent by the Father in the first place.

    On the one side are sincere, sober and serious Christians who believe and teach Christ was sent for no other purpose than to make salvation ‘available and possible’ to all mankind.

    Once the Gospel is heard, it is now up to the individual to make a ‘decision,’ pro or con.

    By making salvation ‘available and possible’ to all mankind, God proves His love and desire that all men be saved.

    Those who reject Christ do so despite knowing God loves them and earnestly wants them to be with Him in Heaven, a place of perpetual joy.

    Those who reject Christ force God, who loves them, to send them to Hell, a place of perpetual torture.

    There is not any wrongdoing on God’s part, for He makes salvation ‘available and possible’ for all: rich, poor, young, old, black, yellow, brown and white.

    The choice is theirs to make.

    On the other side, where this writer stands, we hold that God is all-wise.

    He knows the devastating effects Adam’s disobedience has on his descendants.

    Sin permeates their being to such a degree, hatred of that which is holy, good and pure is their natural reaction.

    Yet, despite knowing man’s innate revulsion to the true God, as well as their natural affection for Satan, the god of this world, the Father had determined, within Himself, to love many of His enemies.

    His love was not contingent on anything favorable foreseen in those chosen enemies.

    No. They did not, could not and would not love Him unless He loved them first.

    His love was not in word only.

    It was an active love, powerful and effectual in achieving its purpose.

    And that love is seen in His Son, Jesus Christ, whose purpose was to gather together those He so loved, that they would be His people and He would be their God, forever and ever.

    Now to achieve that purpose the Father sent His Son to save those in the world, whom He so loved.

    We know that to be the case because it was the Father’s will (eternal purpose) that Christ lose none of those given to Him, who were loved by the Father.

    Christ was to save every last one.

    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day
    (John 6:37-39).

    Is there any doubt that God the Father and God the Son know precisely the identities of those sinners given to Christ, who are so loved by the Father?

    “The Lord knoweth them that are His.”

    And are they not the same ones for whom Christ prays as their High Priest?

    I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine (John 17:9).

    And are they not the same ones for whom Christ prays while on the cross making atonement for their sins?

    Father, forgive them for they know not what they do (Luke 23:34).

    And are they not the same ones who never perish?

    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand
    (John 10:27-29).

    And are they not the same ones who will receive the free gift of faith, causing them to believe and never perish?

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    CONCLUSION: The Father knows how to design a plan to perfection.

    His Son knows how to execute that plan to perfection.

    The Father’s love is omnipotent.

    All those He loves will obediently and willingly comply with His command to ‘repent and believe the Gospel.’

    The Father has not left their salvation up to ‘chance.’

    His love melts hearts of stone.

    For Christ merited and acquired all spiritual gifts necessary for the beloved to attain glorification.

    Which side of the controversy are you on?

    The side which teaches God loves all, but loses more of those loved than He saves?

    Or our side which teaches God saves to the uttermost all those He loves because He loses none.

    NEXT: The Holy Spirit is sent to effectually apply those gifts.

  6. #21
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    Re: The Work of God

    Quote Originally Posted by ICONBUSTERS View Post

    Which side of the controversy are you on?

    The side which teaches God loves all, but loses more of those loved than He saves?

    Or our side which teaches God saves to the uttermost all those He loves because He loses none
    I really like how much of the gospels you used in all you stated, makes it easy for me to read.
    As far as Jesus being sent, it was for God so loved the world, that is all to me.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    As far as not loosing any, it is Jesus that doesn't loose any that he was given by the Father.

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    There must be ones the Father does not give to Jesus, or how would this then fit?:

    Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    As to the controversy of who is saved, I would add these scriptures.
    :
    Matthew 19:25-26 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

    I would be curious as to how then you explain the parable of the sewer? Seems to me there are decisions being made there.

  7. #22

    Re: The Work of God

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    I really like how much of the gospels you used in all you stated, makes it easy for me to read.
    I am so glad my posts are easy to read. That was the intent!

    It is also my intent to break down difficult concepts in bite size pieces with short explanations which are easier to grasp.

    As far as Jesus being sent, it was for God so loved the world, that is all to me.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    As I have explained in my 'Mediator' thread, Christ came to save the world God so loved.

    And He did just that! Please study my posts in that thread.

    As far as not loosing any, it is Jesus that doesn't loose any that he was given by the Father.

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    There must be ones the Father does not give to Jesus, or how would this then fit?:

    Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    Did the Father love those who Christ never knew?

    As to the controversy of who is saved, I would add these scriptures.
    :
    Matthew 19:25-26 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
    Salvation is the supernatural, gracious work of God from beginning to end.

    For it is God which worketh in you (His chosen) both to will and to do of his good pleasure.(Philip. 2:13).

    I would be curious as to how then you explain the parable of the sewer? Seems to me there are decisions being made there.
    Start here. I have commented on those Parables in a few posts.

    Thanks for you input, my friend!

  8. #23
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    Re: The Work of God

    Quote Originally Posted by ICONBUSTERS View Post



    Did the Father love those who Christ never knew?
    To me He loves all.
    I read your post on the sower, I still see decisions being made in the actual parable. You stated this in that post

    Jesus is not shy in explaining why His disciples will bear good fruit.
    It is because He did the choosing, not the other way around, as so many Christians would have us believe (John 15:16).

    Jesus did the choosing here also, did he not love all his disciples?

    John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

    To me Judas is a good example of decisions being made, he also like the others followed Jesus, did all the works of the disciples etc.

    To me God and Jesus loved all, when talking about love he didn't exclude Judas.

  9. #24

    Re: The Work of God

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    To me He loves all.
    I read your post on the sower, I still see decisions being made in the actual parable. You stated this in that post

    Jesus is not shy in explaining why His disciples will bear good fruit.
    It is because He did the choosing, not the other way around, as so many Christians would have us believe (John 15:16).

    Jesus did the choosing here also, did he not love all his disciples?

    John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

    To me Judas is a good example of decisions being made, he also like the others followed Jesus, did all the works of the disciples etc.

    To me God and Jesus loved all, when talking about love he didn't exclude Judas.
    Hello KC:

    I read your response carefully.

    I dare you to walk into any Christian church and state loudly and proudly, “Even though Jesus called Judas a devil, the son of perdition, who was foreordained to be lost and tormented forever and ever (John 17:12), nevertheless, it is my firm opinion Jesus loved Judas.”

    Think for a moment. You are declaring Jesus loves devils. I suppose you also believe Jesus loves Satan?

    Judas was chosen on purpose, but not for the purpose you think.

    Re: ‘who chose whom?’…..If ‘choosing’ Christ was the necessary initial step to being His disciple, then why did not Jesus say so?

    He should have declared, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man choose Me, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

    But alas, that is not what Jesus asserted.

    Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Who commands the Spirit? Man or God?

    Keep asking, seeking and knocking, my friend!

  10. #25
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    Re: The Work of God

    Quote Originally Posted by ICONBUSTERS View Post
    Hello KC:

    I read your response carefully.

    I dare you to walk into any Christian church and state loudly and proudly, “Even though Jesus called Judas a devil, the son of perdition, who was foreordained to be lost and tormented forever and ever (John 17:12), nevertheless, it is my firm opinion Jesus loved Judas.”

    Think for a moment. You are declaring Jesus loves devils. I suppose you also believe Jesus loves Satan?

    Judas was chosen on purpose, but not for the purpose you think.

    Re: ‘who chose whom?’…..If ‘choosing’ Christ was the necessary initial step to being His disciple, then why did not Jesus say so?

    He should have declared, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man choose Me, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

    But alas, that is not what Jesus asserted.

    Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Who commands the Spirit? Man or God?

    Keep asking, seeking and knocking, my friend!
    Matt 10:1-15

    10 And having summoned His twelve disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

    2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax-gatherer; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.

    5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them, saying, "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' 8 "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons; freely you received, freely give. 9 "Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, 10 or a bag for your journey, or even two tunics, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support. 11 "And into whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it; and abide there until you go away. 12 "And as you enter the house, give it your greeting. 13 "And if the house is worthy, let your greeting of peace come upon it; but if it is not worthy, let your greeting of peace return to you. 14 "And whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
    NASB

    By what Spirit did Judas perform miracles?

    What had Judas freely received?

    Since Judas was given to Jesus by the Father, how was it possible that Judas perished?

    John 17:12-13
    12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou hast given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
    NASB
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  11. #26

    Re: The Work of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Matt 10:1-15

    10 And having summoned His twelve disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

    2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax-gatherer; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.

    5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them, saying, "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' 8 "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons; freely you received, freely give. 9 "Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, 10 or a bag for your journey, or even two tunics, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support. 11 "And into whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it; and abide there until you go away. 12 "And as you enter the house, give it your greeting. 13 "And if the house is worthy, let your greeting of peace come upon it; but if it is not worthy, let your greeting of peace return to you. 14 "And whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
    NASB

    By what Spirit did Judas perform miracles?

    What had Judas freely received?

    Since Judas was given to Jesus by the Father, how was it possible that Judas perished?

    John 17:12-13
    12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou hast given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
    NASB
    Unfortunately, this Forum does not allow for a proper answer to your question. Let it suffice to say that the choosing of Judas has deep prophetic significance.

    Re: Judas' working miracles..............

    If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
    2*And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
    3*Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
    4*Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
    5*And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

  12. #27
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    Re: The Work of God

    Quote Originally Posted by ICONBUSTERS View Post
    Unfortunately, this Forum does not allow for a proper answer to your question. Let it suffice to say that the choosing of Judas has deep prophetic significance.

    Re: Judas' working miracles..............

    If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
    2*And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
    3*Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
    4*Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
    5*And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
    Well, Jesus sent Judas out in power. And Judas was sent out to preach the gospel. Therefore, we know that OT passage does't apply.

    In that same passage, Jesus said he sent them out as "sheep", thus calling Judas a sheep.

    Matt 10:16-18

    16 "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; therefore be shrewd as serpents, and innocent as doves. 17 "But beware of men; for they will deliver you up to the courts, and scourge you in their synagogues; 18 and you shall even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
    NASB

    He also included Jesus in this part of the passage:

    Matt 10:30-32
    30 "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 "Therefore do not fear; you are of more value than many sparrows.
    NASB

    You can try to use the OT passage, however the NT passage clearly shows that Judas was empowered by and sent out by Jesus.

    Matt 10:1 And having summoned His twelve disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
    NASB
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  13. #28
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    Re: The Work of God

    Quote Originally Posted by ICONBUSTERS View Post

    Re: ‘who chose whom?’…..If ‘choosing’ Christ was the necessary initial step to being His disciple, then why did not Jesus say so?
    To me Jesus did say so. The word He used was believe, he used the word often, started out with the word. So to me that is the start of coming to Him. So this is the first step.

    Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
    John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

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    Re: The Work of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Since Judas was given to Jesus by the Father, how was it possible that Judas perished?

    John 17:12-13
    12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou hast given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
    NASB
    Was Judas actually given to Christ by the Father? Notice in John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Did Jesus lose Judas or was he already lost?

    Syllogism

    1. All given by the Father to Christ are kept.
    2. Judas was not kept.
    3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father

    Or, this way.

    1. None of those given to Christ by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
    2. Judas is lost.
    3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father.
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  15. #30
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    Re: The Work of God

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Was Judas actually given to Christ by the Father? Notice in John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Did Jesus lose Judas or was he already lost?

    Syllogism

    1. All given by the Father to Christ are kept.
    2. Judas was not kept.
    3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father

    Or, this way.

    1. None of those given to Christ by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
    2. Judas is lost.
    3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father.
    Its a difficult passage. Jesus said "none of them You gave me are lost except Judas". The implication is that Judas was given to Christ. I am on the fence about it and don't think we can lightly say "Judas was not given to Jesus".
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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