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Thread: My position on food laws.

  1. #1

    My position on food laws.

    It is clear that the food laws of the Old Testament are a portion of the law of the Lord as given in the Old Testament, which God gave to Moses to give to us.

    Now Jesus said in Matthew 5:18 that if we obey the least of these commandments, and teach men so, we will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. There in Matthew 5:17-20 He is most certainly referring to the laws of the Old Testament. So if I obey and teach you to obey the food laws, the promise is that I will be called great.

    However, in 1 Timothy 4:1-6, it becomes clear that in order to be a good minister of Jesus Christ, I must remind the brethren that they are not subject to specifically the food laws of the Old Testament.

    These are not contradictions in the word of the Lord. It is reconciled in that, according to Romans 6:14, 7:4, 7:6, Galatians 2:19, 3:21-25, 5:18, 5:222-3, Hebrews 7:12, 7:18-19, and Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14, we as Christians are not under the law, are dead to the law, and are delivered from the law; which means that the law no longer condemns us from the outside or points us out as sinners. While according to Hebrews 8:10, 10:16, Romans 8:4,7, 1 Corinthians 9:21 we are subject to the law as believers in our hearts and in our minds, so that the law governs us through the indwelling Holy Spirit from the inside of our minds and hearts: it governs us from the inside while it can no longer condenm us from the outside.

    Therefore in my teaching I do not command anyone to abstain from certain meats; as Jesus has proclaimed that all meats are clean to you if you give alms of all that you possess. And also Paul was persuaded of the Lord that there is nothing unclean of itself; but that if anyone considers something to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Therefore I do not command, but I teach that in the Old Testament, the food laws are valid laws to be obeyed if you are paying attention to the law. If you are trusting in your own righteousness, then every law must be obeyed: and that means no more bacon burgers or clam chowder for you!

    But if you are in Christ, then you are not subject to the food laws except perhaps in your mind and heart if you have come to that point in your thinking. No one is condemned for eating a bacon burger who is born again, but if someone is trusting in his own law-keeping to save him, then eating a bacon burger will place him outside the kingdom!

    Also it is true that the stronger brother is the one of whom God is able to make him stand if he eats a bacon burger and the weaker brother is not to judge him; and neither is the stronger brother to set at nought the weaker brother.

    Now people such as myself have chosen to take on the infirmities of the weaker brothers, knowing that God's power is made perfect in weakness; but also I consider myself to be a stronger brother who is obedient to the consideration of Romans 15:1; who bears the infirmities of the weak since that is the commandment of our Lord.

    And because I do not want to be considered a hypocrite I also do not even eat a bacon burger in private although I would be blessed if I condemned myself not in that I allowed myself to eat a bacon burger in private. And I know that I would not be condemned in doing so, but for the sake of my weaker brother, who would be condemned in his conscience if he did so, I do not eat bacon burgers so that he will never be emboldened to eat what goes against his conscience because of my personal liberty. Him seeing me eat a bacon burger and not being condemned may embolden him to do so and his conscience would not allow him to do so without feeling condemned. Therefore I refrain.

  2. #2
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    Re: My position on food laws.

    One glaring issue. Moses gave the Law of Moses to Israel. Ritual cleanliness was a requirement for presentation of the people of the Nation of Israel to enter the physical Mishkan. That is why gentiles could not enter - they were ritually unclean unless they converted to Judaism and followed the Law of Moses.

    By practicing the ritual cleanliness laws handed down to Israel for the purpose of temple worship, you are declaring that your cleanliness before the throne of God in heaven is contingent on your own outward ritual cleanliness; that the cleansing act of God through Jesus is insufficient. This is a serious matter brother that I honestly do not believe you have reconciled in your relationship to Jesus. Believe me, I know because I once too believed this and practiced this. And I will tell you from the depth of my soul that the fruit of practicing this does not edify the body of Christ. It divides the body of Christ. This is taught again and again in the New Testament writings, and taught very strongly in Galatians.

    As to the stronger brother proposition, you present yourself as a stronger brother by asserting your own spiritual maturity, therefore your legalism is a detriment to your weaker brothers, a stumbling block to their sanctification, and a yoke on their backs.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  3. #3

    Re: My position on food laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    One glaring issue. Moses gave the Law of Moses to Israel. Ritual cleanliness was a requirement for presentation of the people of the Nation of Israel to enter the physical Mishkan. That is why gentiles could not enter - they were ritually unclean unless they converted to Judaism and followed the Law of Moses.

    By practicing the ritual cleanliness laws handed down to Israel for the purpose of temple worship, you are declaring that your cleanliness before the throne of God in heaven is contingent on your own outward ritual cleanliness; that the cleansing act of God through Jesus is insufficient. This is a serious matter brother that I honestly do not believe you have reconciled in your relationship to Jesus. Believe me, I know because I once too believed this and practiced this. And I will tell you from the depth of my soul that the fruit of practicing this does not edify the body of Christ. It divides the body of Christ. This is taught again and again in the New Testament writings, and taught very strongly in Galatians.

    As to the stronger brother proposition, you present yourself as a stronger brother by asserting your own spiritual maturity, therefore your legalism is a detriment to your weaker brothers, a stumbling block to their sanctification, and a yoke on their backs.
    I think that you have not read the scriptures well enough yet to be able to understand what Paul is saying in such verses as Romans 15:1. If I am obeying that scripture in the way God intended it when it was written, how am I being a detriment to anyone's sanctification?

    There is a difference between legalism and obedience. I do not feel I am being legalistic in my approach. I have acknowledged that as believers we are not under the law, dead to the law, and delivered from the law.

  4. #4
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    Re: My position on food laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    I think that you have not read the scriptures well enough yet to be able to understand what Paul is saying in such verses as Romans 15:1.
    I know exactly what Paul is saying in Romans 15:1. Are you a weak Christian? There are weaker brothers that come and read this forum and they read your posts and they feel condemned by your legalism, which seems to be a source of pleasure for you. Therefore you are doing exactly what Paul said not to do. Not just in Romans 15:1, but in many other places in the NT writings.

    If you want to refrain from anything, even pasta for personal reasons, go for it. But telling unbelievers that they will go to hell for shaving the corners of their beards is setting them up to reject the conviction that the Holy Spirit has set in them already.
    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    If I am obeying that scripture in the way God intended it when it was written, how am I being a detriment to anyone's sanctification?
    Whatever you want to do personally is between you and God, but when you preach a ministry of death to the lost, you are exhorting them to eat from a tree that increases their sin; as it is written: "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." Do you really wish to undo the Spirit's work?

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post

    There is a difference between legalism and obedience. I do not feel I am being legalistic in my approach. I have acknowledged that as believers we are not under the law, dead to the law, and delivered from the law.
    Legalism is practicing and preaching to others to practice that which is not required by God. Ritual cleanliness laws have faded away with the Temple sacrifices. This is how Paul characterizes the "obedience" you are preaching:

    "If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

    But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  5. #5

    Re: My position on food laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    It is clear that the food laws of the Old Testament are a portion of the law of the Lord as given in the Old Testament, which God gave to Moses to give to us.
    And when we read and study Acts chapter 15, we are provided with a proper understanding of which of these food laws are applicable to the Church. So Christians are commanded to (1)abstain from consuming blood and (2) abstain from meats which were strangled (since the blood would remain).

    The New Testament makes it crystal clear that Christians may partake of ALL meats with thanksgiving, and that nothing is unclean when sanctified by the Word of God and prayer (1 Tim 4:1-5). However, there are some Christians today who have become obsessed with this matter, and believe they are "Torah observant" (which is not really true).

    The simple rule is that if a brother wishes to abstain from bacon or pork, he should not be compelled to do so. By the same token, the brother who eats whatever is put before him should not be judged by the one who has scruples, since the Kingdom of God does not consist of meats and drinks.

  6. #6

    Re: My position on food laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    I know exactly what Paul is saying in Romans 15:1. Are you a weak Christian? There are weaker brothers that come and read this forum and they read your posts and they feel condemned by your legalism, which seems to be a source of pleasure for you. Therefore you are doing exactly what Paul said not to do. Not just in Romans 15:1, but in many other places in the NT writings.

    If you want to refrain from anything, even pasta for personal reasons, go for it. But telling unbelievers that they will go to hell for shaving the corners of their beards is setting them up to reject the conviction that the Holy Spirit has set in them already.


    Whatever you want to do personally is between you and God, but when you preach a ministry of death to the lost, you are exhorting them to eat from a tree that increases their sin; as it is written: "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." Do you really wish to undo the Spirit's work?



    Legalism is practicing and preaching to others to practice that which is not required by God. Ritual cleanliness laws have faded away with the Temple sacrifices. This is how Paul characterizes the "obedience" you are preaching:

    "If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

    But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
    I have placed my trust completely in the Lord Jesus Christ for my salvation, and in no way do I trust in the fact that I "don't eat bacon burgers" to save me.

    I preach the law because it is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ. I know you disagree with that scriptural statement, and that is fine. I suppose that we will have to agree to disagree. But I will preach the law because I know that that is what it does. Have you never read Psalm 19:7? The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

    Why do we establish the law (Romans 3:31) as believers in Christ, when it is clear that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law (Romans 3:28)? Is it not because God uses the law to convict unbelieving sinners and to give them the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20)?

  7. #7

    Re: My position on food laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    And when we read and study Acts chapter 15, we are provided with a proper understanding of which of these food laws are applicable to the Church. So Christians are commanded to (1)abstain from consuming blood and (2) abstain from meats which were strangled (since the blood would remain).

    The New Testament makes it crystal clear that Christians may partake of ALL meats with thanksgiving, and that nothing is unclean when sanctified by the Word of God and prayer (1 Tim 4:1-5). However, there are some Christians today who have become obsessed with this matter, and believe they are "Torah observant" (which is not really true).

    The simple rule is that if a brother wishes to abstain from bacon or pork, he should not be compelled to do so. By the same token, the brother who eats whatever is put before him should not be judged by the one who has scruples, since the Kingdom of God does not consist of meats and drinks.
    Amen. I agree with you believe it or not, give or take anything in which I might seem to have disagreed with you in, in the OP.

    In being observant of the food laws of Leviticus 11 I do so because of such verses as Romans 8:4,7, Hebrews 8:10, 10:16, and 1 Corinthians 9:21.

    I believe that when it refers to the law of God in Romans 8:7 it is referring to the laws given to us in the Pentateuch. As spiritually-minded believers therefore, our minds are subject to the law of God, because if we were carnally-minded, our minds would not be subject.

    My reasons for observing these Old Testament food laws lies in the realities of Romans 8:4,7, Hebrews 8:10, 10:16, and 1 Corintihans 9:21.

    And also the law is a schoolmaster to bring unbelieving sinners to Christ, and therefore as believers we establish the law, even though by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified, we shew forth what the law declares so that men will not trust in it to save them but rather in the finished work of the Cross. Because a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. And therefore to show that the law cannot be kept by showing forth the fulness of its requirement is relevant. Also we strive as believers to keep it to the fullest extent possible so that we may set a standard for those who compare themselves with other people instead of with God who is the only standard of righteousness in all reality. We are also able to fulfill the righteousness of the law as we walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh, as we live according to the love that is shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Ghost, which love is the fulfilling of the law.

    Therefore we fulfill the law because we have faith in Christ; because the Spirit dwells in our hearts by faith and through the Spirit the law is fulfilled through the love that is shed abroad in our hearts.

  8. #8
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    Re: My position on food laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    I have placed my trust completely in the Lord Jesus Christ for my salvation, and in no way do I trust in the fact that I "don't eat bacon burgers" to save me.
    okay, so why are you binding yourself to the Law of Moses? Paul clearly says submitting to two masters is spiritual adultery in Roman's 7:2-3.
    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    I preach the law because it is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ.
    No, it led Jews to Christ. The gentiles did not receive the Torah, Israel did. The Torah was given to them to lead them to their Messianic King. I've asked you to show me in the last two millennia statistics of Christians who were led to Christ by practicing the Law of Moses. I will ask you right now - how many have unbelievers have you personally led to the Cross by preaching Judaism to them? Will you please reveal that to us?

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    I know you disagree with that scriptural statement, and that is fine.
    I do not disagree with any Scripture. I disagree with your doctrine of serving two masters.

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    I suppose that we will have to agree to disagree. But I will preach the law because I know that that is what it does. Have you never read Psalm 19:7? The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
    I have read and studied every word of the Bible many times. Have you ever read where Jesus says when the Spirit comes, He will convict the lost? Did you forget about Jesus?

    And once again, I ask you how many of the lost you have led to the cross by preaching the Torah of Moses? How many?
    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    Why do we establish the law (Romans 3:31) as believers in Christ, when it is clear that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law (Romans 3:28)? Is it not because God uses the law to convict unbelieving sinners and to give them the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20)?
    If you want to preach about adultery, stealing, lying and other moral laws that every man is already aware of, and already convicted of (as God promised, remember?) go ahead and try that, but I am convinced the Holy Spirit can do a better job than you can. Try preaching what JESUS commanded us to preach - the Good News! It might save you some grief.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  9. #9

    Re: My position on food laws.

    Read Matthew 5:18 please. It gives me the mandate to preach the law. You want to be called least, that is on you. I want to be commended of the Lord.

    Also it is evident to me that if I continue with you it will result in striving; which the scriptures say we must not do as the servants of the Lord.

    Suffice it to say that I disagree with you, and believe that the law was a schoolmaster to lead those of us who have been led to Christ (believers), to Christ. That is the context of Galatians 3:24. And since we are also discussing this topic in a different thread, I leave it to you to give your opinion there.

  10. #10

    Re: My position on food laws.

    Also the law is not a separate master from the Lord. To observe the law is to be obedient to Him. I suggest you read through the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) multiple times.

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    Re: My position on food laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    Also the law is not a separate master from the Lord. To observe the law is to be obedient to Him. I suggest you read through the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) multiple times.
    You do realize Jesus never once preached to a single Gentile, right? Everything He preached was to Jews only who were under the law. Once the 70th week was completed, the vine was uprooted and not before. That is the point when Peter was sent to Cornelius and Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus. Paul is then the one chosen by God to preach to the Gentiles the exact message he received from the Holy Spirit. Paul learned the gospel from no man. This is when the change was made by God concerning foods and the law itself. Now, our righteousness is from Christ and not from any rules and regs. His righteousness far exceeds the law. Going back to the law casts doubt on whether Christ's righteousness is enough for you. That is where people are going to have a problem. Whether anyone eats bacon or not has no bearing on Christ's righteousness.

  12. #12

    Re: My position on food laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    You do realize Jesus never once preached to a single Gentile, right? Everything He preached was to Jews only who were under the law. Once the 70th week was completed, the vine was uprooted and not before. That is the point when Peter was sent to Cornelius and Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus. Paul is then the one chosen by God to preach to the Gentiles the exact message he received from the Holy Spirit. Paul learned the gospel from no man. This is when the change was made by God concerning foods and the law itself. Now, our righteousness is from Christ and not from any rules and regs. His righteousness far exceeds the law. Going back to the law casts doubt on whether Christ's righteousness is enough for you. That is where people are going to have a problem. Whether anyone eats bacon or not has no bearing on Christ's righteousness.
    The law is a schoolmaster to lead unbelieving sinners to Christ. Galatians 3:24, Psalm 19:7.

    We know from Romans 3:28 that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. But only a few verses later (Romans 3:31) Paul advocates the idea that we do not make void the law through faith, but rather we establish the law.

    Why is this? it is because the Holy Spirit uses the law to convict of sin. by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20b.

    Therefore while I as a believer am not under the law, I obey it that I might set a standard for the one who compares himself with others rather than the Lord (2 Corinthians 10:12). I also obey it because it is written in my heart and mind (Hebrews 8:10, 10:16) and because I am spiritually-minded. Because I am not carnally-minded, I am subject in my mind to the law of God (Romans 8:7).

    But I am starting to sound llike I am beating a dead horse. I only repeat myself because I am talking to someone new. And I have also said my piece although I may decide to say it again and again in order to get my point across.

  13. #13

    Re: My position on food laws.

    My position on food laws has primarily in my thinking to do with the definition for sin. If we do not define sin by the law, then I don't know what we define it by. So in order that I might have a valid definition for sin (see 1 John 3:4 for that definition) I define sin by the law. In doing that I have to include what the law declares in Leviticus 11.

    Since it says in 1 Corinthians 15:34 that we ought to sin not, in order to obey that it helps to know what it is I am not supposed to do. In repenting it is helpful to know what I am repenting of.

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    Re: My position on food laws.

    Rom 7:1-6

    7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then if, while her husband is living, she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress, though she is joined to another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
    NASB

    Why be bound to the Law while married to Christ? Isn't that spiritual adultery according to Romans 7? Either we are dead to the Law and alive to Christ or not. Right?
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: My position on food laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    Also the law is not a separate master from the Lord. To observe the law is to be obedient to Him. I suggest you read through the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) multiple times.
    Is the purpose of observing the Law (as you testify of) to be righteous/blameless before God? Also, do you pick only the food related statutes and ignore the rest of the Law?

    Just wondering...
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



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