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Thread: Our relationship to the law PART II.

  1. #1

    Our relationship to the law PART II.

    In the first thread by this name, it seems to me that there was a focus on the latter part of the OP, wherein I said that as believers in Christ we are subject in our minds to the law of God, that the law is written in our hearts and minds, that the righteousness of the law is fulfiled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

    But in all of the responses the beginning part of the OP was ignored, wherein I pointed out that as believers in Christ we are not under the law, are delivered from the law, and are dead to the law.

    Now I want to quote some of the scriptures that speak on the part of the subject that was ignored in order that they may be brought up for discussion.

    Romans 6:14, For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    Romans 7:4, Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him that was raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

    Galatians 2:19, For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

    Romans 7:6, But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

    Galatians 5:18, But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

    Galatians 5:22-23, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    Hebrews 7:18-19, For there is verily a disanulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

    Ephesians 2:15, Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.

    Colossians 2:14, Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, naiing it to his cross;

    So my question is, for those who abide by the NKJV, how do we avoid lawlessness when we hold these scriptures in mind? The law is done away with, how then is a man governed so that he may walk in righteosuness?

    And, if he walks in righteousness, how is it that the law and the prophets would not testify to the fact that it is truly righteousness?

    One thing I noticed is that Paul was made dead to the law through the law. Galatians 2:19. Just thought I'd bring that up.

    But what does it mean to be dead to the law, delivered from the law, and not under it?

    In light of Hebrews 8:10, 10:16, Romans 8:4,7, and 1 Corinthians 9:21, as well as all the verses quoted above, what is our relationship to the law?

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    Re: Our relationship to the law PART II.

    An O.P. for those who only reference the NKJV?
    Peace to you!

    If anyone makes the assistance of grace to believe the gospel depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" - Council of Orange

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    Re: Our relationship to the law PART II.

    You've written that while we are not under the Law --IF we follow God's word we must still live as if we are --still under the Law.

    You've furthermore suggested instead of trusting in His mercy, grace and promises and so live in hope and thankfulness we should instead live in fear and oppress ourselves with Laws and ordinances that were never given to us in the first place.

    You've also questioned the born again status of those who have tried to engage in conversation with you just because they disagree with you...and that if they disagree with You then they disagree with the Word of God.

    Until called out on it and then you've claimed that while you questioned if they were born again and ignorant you didn't really mean it that way.

    And because no one in the 1st thread was buying what you're trying to sell you just thought you would start another thread and do a do over? Is that about right?

    If you wish to shackle yourself with the Law and legalism that's between you and the Lord bro. But why would the rest of us go backwards instead of forwards? We wish to have a personal and intense relationship
    with Christ not the Law. And if and when we do that we will be more focused upon Him and Love and our fruit will be good as a result of that.
    “For it has never yet been known to fail that one fool, when he goes astray, takes several others with him.”

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    Re: Our relationship to the law PART II.

    Justbyfaith, you have developed a strange dichotomy here. You claim we are delivered from the Law (of Moses I assume) so a Christian who transgress the Law of Moses does not result in condemnation, but then you claim not observing just one the 613 mitzvot the in Law of Moses is sin.

    This makes no sense.

    The doctrine of rebirth (and of Entire Sanctification) as children of God means that the Law we follow is the Law of Love (some call it the Royal Law). New Creations are not supposed to partake in the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil (The Law of Moses), but partake in abiding in the Spirit Who leads us to all righteousness. Have you read Ruth? Boaz violated a Torah commandment (No Ammonite or Moabite or any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, not even in the tenth generation.) and married a Moabite, and God honored Boaz and Ruth with a family line that led up to the birth of Jesus Himself.

    The Law of love guides those who abide in Jesus thus:

    Love is patient, love is kind. - we are all not in the same place in discipleship, and the lost don't even have a guide outside of the Holy Spirit's conviction. Therefore we must be patient and kind, as He is.

    It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. Does "Well I am spiritually minded, so I follow the Torah" ring a bell?

    It does not dishonor others - Does "You need to study the Bible" or "Are you really a Christian?" ring a bell?

    it is not self-seeking - "I was saved so I could do good works!"

    it is not easily angered - anger leads to condemnation and / or dismissal of others

    it keeps no record of wrongs. - By definition the Torah does keep a record of wrongs.

    Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. - One of the most important aspects of Christian love is for us to preserve our relationship with God and with each other; as Jesus would say - "they will know you by your love for each other"

    Justinfaith - I ask you again, if you obey every single Torah command perfectly, what good is it to God and to man if the second greatest commandment is neglected?

    I submit that love (as demonstrated by Boaz) knows no wrongs, that love does not partake from the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil (aka; the tree written on stone tablets), but partakes in the fruit of the Spirit. It is the Spirit who cleanses you to stand boldly before the throne of God, not your own works of ritual cleanliness.

    Until you allow Jesus to "wash your feet," He can't help you! No amount of Law-keeping will make you "clean enough" to go there. Our garments of righteousness are provided by Him, we can't stand in His presence wearing our own white-washed tombs.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Our relationship to the law PART II.

    Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    This is the first and great commandment.
    And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

  6. #6

    Re: Our relationship to the law PART II.

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    So my question is, for those who abide by the NKJV, how do we avoid lawlessness when we hold these scriptures in mind? The law is done away with, how then is a man governed so that he may walk in righteosuness?
    While I definitely do not abide by the NKJV (which was messed with), the answer is rather simple. The Law of Moses has been set aside and replaced with the Law of Christ, which is the Law of Love. Love (agape) fulfils all the requirements of the Law (Rom 13:10). As to righteousness, every believer has received the GIFT of the righteousness of Christ (by imputation), and every believer has received the GIFT of the Holy Spirit in order to obey the Law of Christ.

    So the issue of *lawlessness* is moot, and is actually a red herring since the demands of the Law of Christ are even more demanding than those of Moses. For example, Moses did not require Israel to love its enemies, but the Law of Christ demands this.

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    Re: Our relationship to the law PART II.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    While I definitely do not abide by the NKJV (which was messed with), the answer is rather simple. The Law of Moses has been set aside and replaced with the Law of Christ, which is the Law of Love. Love (agape) fulfils all the requirements of the Law (Rom 13:10). As to righteousness, every believer has received the GIFT of the righteousness of Christ (by imputation), and every believer has received the GIFT of the Holy Spirit in order to obey the Law of Christ.

    So the issue of *lawlessness* is moot, and is actually a red herring since the demands of the Law of Christ are even more demanding than those of Moses. For example, Moses did not require Israel to love its enemies, but the Law of Christ demands this.
    Indeed!

    Romans 2:14 is clear that fulfilling the Law has nothing to do with the Torah of Moses. So how did Gentiles fulfill the Law Paul is talking about? Romans 2:15. Again, Paul is not referring to the Torah. He is referring to the Law of Love.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  8. #8

    Re: Our relationship to the law PART II.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    You've written that while we are not under the Law --IF we follow God's word we must still live as if we are --still under the Law.

    You've furthermore suggested instead of trusting in His mercy, grace and promises and so live in hope and thankfulness we should instead live in fear and oppress ourselves with Laws and ordinances that were never given to us in the first place.

    You've also questioned the born again status of those who have tried to engage in conversation with you just because they disagree with you...and that if they disagree with You then they disagree with the Word of God.

    Until called out on it and then you've claimed that while you questioned if they were born again and ignorant you didn't really mean it that way.

    And because no one in the 1st thread was buying what you're trying to sell you just thought you would start another thread and do a do over? Is that about right?

    If you wish to shackle yourself with the Law and legalism that's between you and the Lord bro. But why would the rest of us go backwards instead of forwards? We wish to have a personal and intense relationship
    with Christ not the Law. And if and when we do that we will be more focused upon Him and Love and our fruit will be good as a result of that.
    I sense hostility coming from you, keck553 (My position on food laws, post #44, repeated in post #52 with emphasis) and BrianW.

    May the Lord abundantly bless the both of you!

    Jeremiah 4:3, For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.

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    Re: Our relationship to the law PART II.

    Hostility? Not in the least.

    Edifying out of love and with a purpose. What in my posts could you possibly consider hostile? Nothing. I've merely stated the obvious and hoped that you would consider it. I've read the other threads as well and can confidently conclude that no one you've named has been "hostile" to you in the least.

    Instead of actually responding to what I've written you've tried to "turn tables" in order to either make me look like a bad guy or yourself look like a victim. Instead of truly responding you attack my character by saying that I am hostile.

    I assure you good sir that I know very well that such tactics are only used by one who cannot defend their own words and actions. Take a very good look at your own posts here on Bible Forums and please try to read them with an objective eye and then read others responses to you.

    You are here to teach -your- doctrine and correct others. How do I know that? I read the very post first you ever made here.
    That would be all well and fine, however, your doctrine is in contradiction to what Scripture, in context, lays out for us. You aren't totally 100% wrong but even a drop of poison spoils the whole pot and brother, you've got more than a drop.

    You say that there are false teachers out there and you are correct. You are one of them.

    None of that is hostility. That is an attempt at edification or, at least, to get you to read over your own words and see how you've come across to others.
    Last edited by BrianW; May 19th 2017 at 11:23 PM.
    “For it has never yet been known to fail that one fool, when he goes astray, takes several others with him.”

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    Re: Our relationship to the law PART II.

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    (My position on food laws, post #44, repeated in post #52 with emphasis)[/B]
    In the first "Our relationship to the law" thread? I don't see anything about food in #44 and #52 isn't yours.

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    Re: Our relationship to the law PART II.

    He's saying that disagreeing with the false doctrine that he's trying to teach here and attempts to edify him is the same as being hostile. Neither of those posts ( In the My Position on Food Laws thread #44 & #52 ) are his. He's using them as some kind of example of "hostility."
    “For it has never yet been known to fail that one fool, when he goes astray, takes several others with him.”

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    Re: Our relationship to the law PART II.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    While I definitely do not abide by the NKJV (which was messed with), the answer is rather simple. The Law of Moses has been set aside and replaced with the Law of Christ, which is the Law of Love. Love (agape) fulfils all the requirements of the Law (Rom 13:10).
    Matthew 22:37-40 posted above. To save my self a little typing I'll post Barnes....."That is, these comprehend the substance of what Moses in the law and what the prophets have spoken.
    What they have said has been to endeavor to win people to love God and to love each other. Love to God and man comprehends the whole of religion, and to produce this has been the design of Moses, the prophets, the Saviour, and the apostles."


    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    the demands of the Law of Christ are even more demanding than those of Moses. For example, Moses did not require Israel to love its enemies, but the Law of Christ demands this.
    These statements are not true. Jesus came and taught the law perfectly (fulfilled). Just because the spirit of the law was/is missed, doesn't mean the law which said to love God and neighbor in summation of giving many behavior laws didn't intent and teach it. Enemy there is talking about your neighbor that offends, not an enemy of country in war.

    Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

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    Re: Our relationship to the law PART II.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    He's saying that disagreeing with the false doctrine that he's trying to teach here and attempts to edify him is the same as being hostile. Neither of those posts ( In the My Position on Food Laws thread #44 & #52 ) are His. He's using them as some kind of example of "hostility."
    Thanks for clarification!

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    Re: Our relationship to the law PART II.

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    I sense hostility coming from you, keck553 (My position on food laws, post #44, repeated in post #52 with emphasis) and BrianW.

    May the Lord abundantly bless the both of you!

    Jeremiah 4:3, For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.
    Hostility? No, exhortation is not hostility. It pains me to see a brother held in bondage, because I was once also held in bondage. But even more, it is very, very important to dispel any teaching which would mislead and cast a net on a weaker Christian who may come across such teachings.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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