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Thread: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

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    Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah? Or do they already have all of the information that they need?

    Will God give them more special treatment or do they have the same chance as the gentiles?

    Lets see what Jesus taught about this

    The Rich Man and Lazarus

    Luke 16:19-31
    19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

    22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

    25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

    27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

    29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

    30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

    31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

    This is the only parable that names someone and I believe this to be a actual event.

    Jesus teaches in this parable that the Jews have Mosses (who represents the law) and the prophets. The law and the prophets are the two witnesses who pointed to Jesus and all that have or need to realize who Jesus is and be saved.

    Jesus also says that "no one else will be sent to them" this means no special treatment and no future two witnesses.

    Jesus then says "they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

    Jesus here was foretelling that He will rise from the Dead and that the Jews as a nation still won't believe in Him. If they don't understand who the law and prophets pointed too they will never realize that Jesus was the Messiah and their savior.

    If christian Jews and gentiles understand this now why would none believing Jews deserve special treatment? Would this be fair to unbelieving Jews who have already died?

  2. #2

    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah? Or do they already have all of the information that they need?

    Will God give them more special treatment or do they have the same chance as the gentiles?

    Lets see what Jesus taught about this?

    The Rich Man and Lazarus

    Luke 16:19-31
    19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

    22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

    25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

    27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

    29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

    30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

    31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

    This is the only parable that names someone and I believe this to be a actual event.

    Jesus teaches in this parable that the Jews have Mosses (who represents the law) and the prophets. The law and the prophets are the two witnesses who pointed to Jesus and all that have or need to realize who Jesus is and be saved.

    Jesus also says that "no one else will be sent to them" this means no special treatment and no future two witnesses.

    Jesus then says "they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

    Jesus here was foretelling that He will rise from the Dead and that the Jews as a nation still won't believe in Him. If they don't understand who the law and prophets pointed too they will never realize that Jesus was the Messiah and their savior.

    If christian Jews and gentiles understand this now why would none believing Jews deserve special treatment? Would this be fair to unbelieving Jews who have already died?
    The way you put it makes sense only if the same people who had been given evidence were still the same people called "the Jews" today. Once they have received sufficient testimony they shouldn't need more. Furthermore, Jesus discerned whether people were really interested in his testimony or not. Those disinterested in him Jesus refused to give more input to.

    That being said Jesus still said to the Jews that he was willing to forgive them, indicating that not all of them had been completely judged by his testimony. Not all of them had received sufficient testimony. Jesus said that his apostles would not, in a sense, have time to go through all of Israel's cities before judgment would come, or before he would come (ostensibly in judgment). This means that not everybody gets covered in terms of adequate evangelism.

    But today we are very many generations removed from the initial generation to which Jesus gave lots of proof of who he was and what he came to do. Lots of people have been born who have *no clue* as to what testimony Jesus gave to that early generation!

    So no, the Jews have *not* had enough witnessing. They are as unevangelized as any other people on earth. Even in Christian countries not all of the cities have been gone through thoroughly enough to say that God can now bring complete judgment on them all for what they know. God may indeed see enough sin to bring judgment, but it is not because everybody to the last person knows better.

    It can be different at times. Sin spreads so through a society like gangrene that a whole city or a whole nation can be so resistant to the gospel that they need judgment, whether they fully know what they do or not. Sodom was judged this way. Early Israel was certainly judged this way in 70 AD, because as he died on the cross Jesus called out to forgive them. There was still time to repent. And I think Jews are still repenting today. That is obviously so since there is a Messianic Jewish movement!

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    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The way you put it makes sense only if the same people who had been given evidence were still the same people called "the Jews" today. Once they have received sufficient testimony they shouldn't need more. Furthermore, Jesus discerned whether people were really interested in his testimony or not. Those disinterested in him Jesus refused to give more input to.

    That being said Jesus still said to the Jews that he was willing to forgive them, indicating that not all of them had been completely judged by his testimony. Not all of them had received sufficient testimony. Jesus said that his apostles would not, in a sense, have time to go through all of Israel's cities before judgment would come, or before he would come (ostensibly in judgment). This means that not everybody gets covered in terms of adequate evangelism.

    But today we are very many generations removed from the initial generation to which Jesus gave lots of proof of who he was and what he came to do. Lots of people have been born who have *no clue* as to what testimony Jesus gave to that early generation!

    So no, the Jews have *not* had enough witnessing. They are as unevangelized as any other people on earth. Even in Christian countries not all of the cities have been gone through thoroughly enough to say that God can now bring complete judgment on them all for what they know. God may indeed see enough sin to bring judgment, but it is not because everybody to the last person knows better.

    It can be different at times. Sin spreads so through a society like gangrene that a whole city or a whole nation can be so resistant to the gospel that they need judgment, whether they fully know what they do or not. Sodom was judged this way. Early Israel was certainly judged this way in 70 AD, because as he died on the cross Jesus called out to forgive them. There was still time to repent. And I think Jews are still repenting today. That is obviously so since there is a Messianic Jewish movement!
    What I am saying is that Jesus plainly taught here that they have all they need no special treatment is needed they have the law and the prophets.

    Now it is up to each person individually not because of your nationality. The Jews today still have that evidence more than the ones in the past and Jewish believers are the proof

  4. #4

    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    What I am saying is that Jesus plainly taught here that they have all they need no special treatment is needed they have the law and the prophets.

    Now it is up to each person individually not because of your nationality. The Jews today still have that evidence more than the ones in the past and Jewish believers are the proof
    I don't really think Jews have less need for evangelism, simply because they have the Law and the Prophets. They are more lost than one should be if he or she had the Law and the Prophets. They have been given information with a decided bias against understanding it properly, as fulfilled in Jesus. And so they are no better off than someone raised up with the Koran.

    But I do think it helps a Jew, once the light has gotten through, and once he or she has become a Christian. The pieces may fall together rather dramatically.

    It did that for me many years ago, having been raised up a devoted Lutheran--an every week at church Lutheran. Once I got the Holy Spirit into my life, once somebody made me see that the Holy Spirit comes as a reward to devout obedience to Christ's commands, I suddenly understood the value of all my years of Sunday School, Bible Study, and Confirmation classes. I was able to understand Luther's theology in a better way. And the Lutheran hymns had a more spiritual quality to them.

    I think it's that way with a Jew. They can't see the forest for the trees. But once they can see clear to put the pieces together, then all of their years of gathering information on the OT Scriptures can suddenly help them understand better than someone raised up on the Koran.

  5. #5

    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    What I am saying is that Jesus plainly taught here that they have all they need no special treatment is needed they have the law and the prophets.

    Now it is up to each person individually not because of your nationality. The Jews today still have that evidence more than the ones in the past and Jewish believers are the proof
    You are right. Jews will not receive any special treatment or revelation from God during the Church Age, since at the present time God is making no distinctions between Jew and Gentile. In the beginning (after Pentecost) the Gospel went out first to the Jews, and then to the Gentiles. But when the Jews throughout the Roman Empire rejected Christ (by and large) Paul turned away from them and focused on the Gentiles.

    At the same time, many Jews are being saved today. Unfortunately, most of them are becoming "Messianic Jews" rather than plain Christians (and isolating themselves by reverting back to Moses), even though the New Testament is against any such thing. There are no distinctions within the Church, so maintaining any distinctions would grieve the Holy Spirit.

    For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor 12:12,13).

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    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?
    Well Who is Jesus the (Messiah) of?

    Here is a Basic definition of *Messiah*

    From Wiki

    In Abrahamic religions, the Messiah (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ‎‎, translit. māšîaḥ‎, sometimes spelled Moshiach), is the one chosen to lead the world and thereby save it. The term also appears in the forms Messias (Ancient Greek: Μεσσίας), Christ (Ancient Greek: Χριστός), or Al-Masih (Arabic: المسيح‎‎, ISO 233: al-masīḥ).


    The concepts of the Messiah, Messianism, and the Messianic Age grew from Isaiah's writings (4:2 and chapter 11) during the latter half of the 8th century BCE.[1][2][3] The term comes from the Hebrew verb meaning "to apply oil to," to anoint. In the Hebrew Bible, Israel's kings were sometimes called God's "messiah"—God's anointed one.[4] A messiah could also be an anointed high priest or prophet. Messiahs did not even need to descend from Jacob, as the Hebrew Bible refers to Cyrus the Great, king of Persia, as a messiah[5] for his decree to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple.


    In Judaism, the Jewish Messiah (המשיח‎, HaMashiach, "the anointed one"),[6] often referred to as "King Messiah" (מלך המשיח‎, Melekh HaMashiach),[7] is expected to descend from King David and accomplish the unification of the twelve tribes[8] into a re-established nation. The Jerusalem Temple's rebuilding will usher in a Messianic Age[9] of global peace.[10][11]


    In Christianity, the Messiah is called the Christ, from Ancient Greek: χριστός, translating the Hebrew word of the same meaning.[12] The concept of the Messiah in Christianity originated from the Messiah in Judaism. However, unlike the concept of the Messiah in Judaism and Islam, the Messiah in Christianity is the Son of God. Christ became the accepted Christian designation and title of Jesus of Nazareth,[13] because Christians believe that messianic prophecies in the Christian Old Testament were fulfilled in his mission, death, and resurrection. They believe that Christ will fulfill the rest of the Messianic prophecies in the Second Coming, specifically the prophecy of a future leader who would come from the Davidic line and usher in either a temporary Messianic Age or a permanent World to Come.


    Was not Jesus born King of the Jews?

    Was not Jesus promised the throne of David to rule forever?

    If the Jews reject the Jewish messiah how can the Jewish Messiah save the Jews?

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    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't really think Jews have less need for evangelism, simply because they have the Law and the Prophets. They are more lost than one should be if he or she had the Law and the Prophets. They have been given information with a decided bias against understanding it properly, as fulfilled in Jesus. And so they are no better off than someone raised up with the Koran.

    But I do think it helps a Jew, once the light has gotten through, and once he or she has become a Christian. The pieces may fall together rather dramatically.

    It did that for me many years ago, having been raised up a devoted Lutheran--an every week at church Lutheran. Once I got the Holy Spirit into my life, once somebody made me see that the Holy Spirit comes as a reward to devout obedience to Christ's commands, I suddenly understood the value of all my years of Sunday School, Bible Study, and Confirmation classes. I was able to understand Luther's theology in a better way. And the Lutheran hymns had a more spiritual quality to them.

    I think it's that way with a Jew. They can't see the forest for the trees. But once they can see clear to put the pieces together, then all of their years of gathering information on the OT Scriptures can suddenly help them understand better than someone raised up on the Koran.
    That's great to hear about your experience.

    To be clear all I am saying is that they have the same chance as everybody else with no special treatment. The proof is the believing Jews.

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    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    If the Jews reject the Jewish messiah how can the Jewish Messiah save the Jews?
    Jesus saved many Jews the ones who recognized who He was.

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    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Jesus saved many Jews the ones who recognized who He was.
    Saved them sure(all those who believe in Christ are dead to the Law and a Part of the KoG.)

    But thats not the Point.

    You asked will God provide the *Jews * more *Proof* that Jesus(and not anyone else since we Know the Jewish people (vast Majority) are still awaiting a messiah who will Rule the Kingdom of David) is *Messiah*.

    The Clear answer is Yes-

    If i told you i was going to send you a king who was going to Rule Israel and he not ruling Israel how do you expect them (the Jewish people) to believe he's Messiah.

    They believe Messiah will Unite the 12 tribes and Rule Israel out of the throne of David

    When this comes to pass would you not consider this *proof*? Because i know the Jewish people will.

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    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Saved them sure(all those who believe in Christ are dead to the Law and a Part of the KoG.)

    But thats not the Point.

    You asked will God provide the *Jews * more *Proof* that Jesus(and not anyone else since we Know the Jewish people (vast Majority) are still awaiting a messiah who will Rule the Kingdom of David) is *Messiah*.

    The Clear answer is Yes-

    If i told you i was going to send you a king who was going to Rule Israel and he not ruling Israel how do you expect them (the Jewish people) to believe he's Messiah.

    They believe Messiah will Unite the 12 tribes and Rule Israel out of the throne of David

    When this comes to pass would you not consider this *proof*? Because i know the Jewish people will.
    They misunderstood and missed who He was when he came in the flesh

    I refer you to the last sentence in the parable

    Jesus said no they have all they need

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    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    They misunderstood and missed who h was when he came in the flesh

    I refer you to the last sentence in the parable

    Jesus said no they have all they need
    Sorry the Parable doesn't actually address your question much less answer it.

    The Man in torment does not ask * Please Let me go tell my Family Jesus Christ is the Messiah*

    Nor does he ask please let me go warn them about the Jewish Messiah.

    He says ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

    Your question was more specific, i do believe God will furnish more proof to the *Jews* that Jesus is Messiah.

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    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Has anyone considered that the Jews have LESS chance than the average member of the nations. It was they who had the Oracles of God and the Covenants (Act.7:38; Rom.3:2, 9:4). It was they who had a history of dealings with God. It was they who, knowing all the prophecies concerning Messiah, refused them then and NOW. It is because of all this that BLINDNESS has descended on them (Rom.11:25). Paul, years after Christ's death and in Corinth, a place of Jewish dispersion, who said;

    5 "And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
    6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles"
    (Acts 18:5-6).

    What the Jew DOES have is God's Covenant with Abraham. That Covenant is a Covenant of PROMISE, not LAW, in which God PROMISES to bring them into their Promised Land. The only thing for this Covenant to take effect is for the Jew to be circumcised - not believe in Jesus. And truly, as the prophets expound over and over, we see the prophecy of Zacharias predicted in Luke 1:67-80 concerning the LAND, their ENEMIES and their SERVICE to Jesus, Emmanuel, living AMONG them not IN them like He does for Christians. And all this AFTER our Lord Jesus returns.

  13. #13

    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    That's great to hear about your experience.

    To be clear all I am saying is that they have the same chance as everybody else with no special treatment. The proof is the believing Jews.
    Good enough for me.

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    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Sorry the Parable doesn't actually address your question much less answer it.

    The Man in torment does not ask * Please Let me go tell my Family Jesus Christ is the Messiah*

    Nor does he ask please let me go warn them about the Jewish Messiah.

    He says ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

    Your question was more specific, i do believe God will furnish more proof to the *Jews* that Jesus is Messiah.
    So what is the only way they can be saved from going to the place of torment?

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    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Has anyone considered that the Jews have LESS chance than the average member of the nations. It was they who had the Oracles of God and the Covenants (Act.7:38; Rom.3:2, 9:4). It was they who had a history of dealings with God. It was they who, knowing all the prophecies concerning Messiah, refused them then and NOW. It is because of all this that BLINDNESS has descended on them (Rom.11:25). Paul, years after Christ's death and in Corinth, a place of Jewish dispersion, who said;

    5 "And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
    6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles"
    (Acts 18:5-6).

    What the Jew DOES have is God's Covenant with Abraham. That Covenant is a Covenant of PROMISE, not LAW, in which God PROMISES to bring them into their Promised Land. The only thing for this Covenant to take effect is for the Jew to be circumcised - not believe in Jesus. And truly, as the prophets expound over and over, we see the prophecy of Zacharias predicted in Luke 1:67-80 concerning the LAND, their ENEMIES and their SERVICE to Jesus, Emmanuel, living AMONG them not IN them like He does for Christians. And all this AFTER our Lord Jesus returns.
    So where would you place or how would you explain a believing Jew like Paul?

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