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Thread: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

  1. #76

    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    You seem to be conflating Paul and James. Paul didn't say anything regarding the restortation of the tent of David- Paul spoke of the Deliever coming to Mount Zion after the times of the gentiles(he quoted Isaiah)
    Yes, I was indeed conflating the two, and rightfully so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    James Quotes Amos in Acts 15, and if you want to believe that this was fulfilled *prior* to God taking a people for his name from the gentiles(during the Resurrection of Christ).

    You stand in opposition with the Apostles and the OT prophets who claim this only happens *After*(Acts 15:14-16).
    No, I'm not at all standing in opposition with the Apostles and Prophets! Amos said this would happen in the day that Israel comes under judgment--a judgment of great consequence. This could only have been following the time of the Assyrian and Babylonian judgments. "After that time" refers to the appearance of Jesus--his death and resurrection. It is Jesus who is restoring his rule on earth--he currently has a throne in heaven. What Jesus is doing is gathering both Jews and Gentiles into the Christian fold in the process of building his throne on earth. That Kingdom will not come into its full rule until Christ comes back and establishes his Kingdom on earth.

    And so, James is right. Jesus did begin the process of rebuilding David's "fallen tent." This seems to be something that for James had already begun--not something yet to take place in the future. It was Paul who indicated that in the future all this would be completed.

    James said:
    Acts 15.14 Simon has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this...


    If God "first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles" already, and if this was something Peter had referred to as something that already happened, then this was the "repair of David's tent" that had already begun.

    Paul indicates in Rom 11 that the Gentiles will have fully entered in, in a time preliminary to Israel's salvation, when Christ returns. But the repair of "David's tent" seems to have begun with the initial outreach to the Gentiles in Peter's time.

  2. #77
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    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, I was indeed conflating the two, and rightfully so.

    No, I'm not at all standing in opposition with the Apostles and Prophets! Amos said this would happen in the day that Israel comes under judgment--a judgment of great consequence. This could only have been following the time of the Assyrian and Babylonian judgments. "After that time" refers to the appearance of Jesus--his death and resurrection. It is Jesus who is restoring his rule on earth--he currently has a throne in heaven. What Jesus is doing is gathering both Jews and Gentiles into the Christian fold in the process of building his throne on earth. That Kingdom will not come into its full rule until Christ comes back and establishes his Kingdom on earth.

    And so, James is right. Jesus did begin the process of rebuilding David's "fallen tent." This seems to be something that for James had already begun--not something yet to take place in the future. It was Paul who indicated that in the future all this would be completed.

    James said:
    Acts 15.14 Simon has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this...


    If God "first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles" already, and if this was something Peter had referred to as something that already happened, then this was the "repair of David's tent" that had already begun.

    Paul indicates in Rom 11 that the Gentiles will have fully entered in, in a time preliminary to Israel's salvation, when Christ returns. But the repair of "David's tent" seems to have begun with the initial outreach to the Gentiles in Peter's time.
    I think i might understand what your saying here =)

  3. #78
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    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The bottom line is this. I think Jesus' earthly coming fulfilled the "restoration of David's fallen tent."
    David's fallen tent will not be restored until Jesus rules over Israel when he returns the second time.

  4. #79

    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    David's fallen tent will not be restored until Jesus rules over Israel when he returns the second time.
    You may or may not be right. As I earlier told JLU, this is a possible interpretation. My preference, however, is to see the "restoration of David's fallen tent" as being a process that began with Christ's resurrection. And I don't say that without basis.

    As I shared with JLU, the reference James made to "David's fallen tent" in Acts 15 makes it sound like it was something that Prophets "agreed" had happened in the immediate past, when Peter initially began to realize the Gentiles were to be included in this restoration process.

    James said:
    Acts 15.14 Simon has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this...

  5. #80

    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah? Or do they already have all of the information that they need?

    Will God give them more special treatment or do they have the same chance as the gentiles?

    Lets see what Jesus taught about this

    The Rich Man and Lazarus

    Luke 16:19-31
    19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

    22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

    25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

    27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

    29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

    30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

    31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

    This is the only parable that names someone and I believe this to be a actual event.

    Jesus teaches in this parable that the Jews have Mosses (who represents the law) and the prophets. The law and the prophets are the two witnesses who pointed to Jesus and all that have or need to realize who Jesus is and be saved.

    Jesus also says that "no one else will be sent to them" this means no special treatment and no future two witnesses.

    Jesus then says "they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

    Jesus here was foretelling that He will rise from the Dead and that the Jews as a nation still won't believe in Him. If they don't understand who the law and prophets pointed too they will never realize that Jesus was the Messiah and their savior.

    If christian Jews and gentiles understand this now why would none believing Jews deserve special treatment? Would this be fair to unbelieving Jews who have already died?
    I think the "two witnesses" will be seen, briefly, on Al Jazeera TV. Lol!

    But, what about the "voice of the Seventh Angel?"

    What will it say to us in the day that "the mystery of God" will be no more?
    PROV 25:26 Like a muddied spring, and a polluted well, so is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked. -World English Bible

    MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.


    As opposed to the bad man that does nothing?

    MT 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

    Righteousness comes from the Bible, but our ability to possess the Bible comes from the possession of the sword.

  6. #81

    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Here's another angle:

    I think God will, and is, giving more proof to the Jews.

    “And afterward,
    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
    Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    your old men will dream dreams,
    your young men will see visions.
    29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
    I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
    30 I will show wonders in the heavens
    and on the earth,
    blood and fire and billows of smoke.
    31 The sun will be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood
    before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
    32 And everyone who calls
    on the name of the Lord will be saved;
    for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
    there will be deliverance,
    as the Lord has said,
    even among the survivors
    whom the Lord calls."

    This was partially fulfilled in the time of Acts, but not fulfilled in it's entirety.

    Now that we are approaching the End Times, we are seeing this being fulfilled again! God is speaking directly to many christians, and giving visions to christians, and even winning 1000s of Muslims to Christ with visions and dreams!!

    http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/ev...iims-see-jesus

    Okay, and so similarly, one of the things that God has been revealing directly to Christians is His name, and so people have been finding out (and verifying it with research too) that the name of the Son includes part of God's name.

    Name of God: YHUH [Yod Heh Vav Heh]
    Name of Son: YHUSHA [Yod Heh Vav Shin Ayin]

    Hebrew names with the Yod Heh Vav part all make a statement about YHUH, and reference YHUH. Like, Jeremiah's Hebrew name, Yirmeyahu (yahu being spelled Yod Heh Vav) means: "Let YHUH raise up!"

    Christ's name meaning is YHUH-our-Salvation. Yahu-shua. The sha or shua ending means salvation or savior, and also hushua means salvation.

    If you put together HalleluYah (Praise Yah) and Hosanna (Hushua-na, salvation-please) then right in the middle you also see the name of Jesus Christ as He rode into Jerusalem: Yahushua.

    This is also the Hebrew name that in our English Bibles shows up as Joshua and Justin, in addition to Jesus.

    Because Christ's Hebrew name had God's name referenced (Yod Heh Vav being the first three letters), this is why they said to Him: "Blessed is He who comes in the name of YHUH (the Lord)!!"

    Christ's true name is additional grace to reach out to the Jews (the Yahudim) and also Jehovah's Witnesses.

  7. #82

    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Did you forget about the Two witnesses of Revelation?
    They will witness to Israel, ie the remnant of Israel, as to who the true Messiah is. That it is Jesus rather than the AntiChrist.
    Which is why the Antichrist hates them and why the people celebrate will their deaths, thus rejecting Jesus as their Messiah.

    What many misunderstand is that Israel would Riot at the Abomination of Desolation,(like they have in the past) unless they thought that the Antichrist WAS their long awaited Messiah!
    Which then allows him to proclaim himself as God,(since Israel know the Messiah, is God in the flesh) and allowed make to changes (corrections) to their religion and its laws.

    Sometimes we get so bogged down in what specific Bible verses say, that we forget to look past that and see what must occur in order for that to come to pass. Which is usually also pointed to, in other Bible verses and in history.

  8. #83
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    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by gkm01 View Post
    Did you forget about the Two witnesses of Revelation?
    They will witness to Israel, ie the remnant of Israel, as to who the true Messiah is. That it is Jesus rather than the AntiChrist.
    Which is why the Antichrist hates them and why the people celebrate will their deaths, thus rejecting Jesus as their Messiah.

    What many misunderstand is that Israel would Riot at the Abomination of Desolation,(like they have in the past) unless they thought that the Antichrist WAS their long awaited Messiah!
    Which then allows him to proclaim himself as God,(since Israel know the Messiah, is God in the flesh) and allowed make to changes (corrections) to their religion and its laws.

    Sometimes we get so bogged down in what specific Bible verses say, that we forget to look past that and see what must occur in order for that to come to pass. Which is usually also pointed to, in other Bible verses and in history.
    The two witnesses are symbolic of the law and the prophets which pointed to Jesus

    The bible says nothing about them just witnessing to the remnant of israel

  9. #84
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    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    How would the law be a witness, how would the law fit the description of tormenting the kings, and what would be the "body" of the law being unburied in the street?
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  10. #85
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    Re: Will God give the Jews more proof that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    How would the law be a witness, how would the law fit the description of tormenting the kings, and what would be the "body" of the law being unburied in the street?
    This is something that have posted before a few times and is another way of looking at them

    The two witnesses


    I believe these two witnesses to be symbolic of the prophets and the law that point to Jesus. Why does God call them the two witnesses? Why the term witness? It means that they had to witness something. Is it because they witnesses and pointed to Jesus?

    It took two witnesses to witness a testimony and two witnesses to witness a crime. Could the testimony be about who Jesus is and the crime be what Israel was guilty of?

    Mosses represents the law and like the witnesses turned water into blood and struck the earth with all types of plagues. Elijah represents the prophets and like the witnesses he could shut the sky up so that it couldn’t rain and had fire devour his enemies. These two are the two olive trees also the two golden lamp stands and the two anointed ones that stand before the lord . This is referred to in Zechariah chapter 4. Jesus is the anointed one.

    The fire out of there mouths is the word that has power to condemn and convict . They are dressed in sackcloth to represent repentance. Jews reading this would understand the meanings.

    They mirror Jesus’ life they have a 3 ˝ year ministry and can’t be killed until there time has come. They are also killed by the beast (which I believe is a demon behind the power of Rome) which also killed Jesus. They are killed in Jerusalem just like Jesus was. They are also dead for 3 ˝ days like Jesus was and are raised and went up to heaven . Both Jesus and the two witnesses had earthquakes around the time of there death and there was also an earthquake when Jesus rose back to life.

    Why is it 7000 people that died in the earthquake? Why the number 7000? 7 is the number of completeness and perfection to God and 1000 means many. It also says in Revelation 11:13 that people gave glory to God after the earthquake just like some people realized that Jesus was the son of God after the earthquake when Jesus died. There is no recording of the damage or the casualties from the earthquakes when Jesus died and rose back to life.

    Why is Jerusalem also called Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11:8. Sodom represents the morality of Jerusalem and Egypt represents the oppression of Jerusalem.

    These two witnesses torment people with the word as there words torment and convicts people just like Jesus words did. The Pharisees were happy when Jesus died because he was exposed them for who they were and they even celebrated.

    Revelation is the unveiling of Jesus and these two witnesses help to show us who Jesus is.

    On a side note notice that the temple is talked about like it is still there in Revelation 11:1. It doesn’t say the future temple.

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