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Thread: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

  1. #1
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    How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    My question is specific to HOW do the Elect get gathered after the GT.

    Also where will they be gathered to?

  2. #2

    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Matt24:29-31

    --"He shall SEND His angels... and THEY shall gather together His elect from the four winds [N, S, E, W--where Israel was said to be 'scattered']"

    --"with a GREAT sound of a trumpet"

    --"one BY one"

    --"and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM"




    Isaiah 27:
    12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

    13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.




    [note: this is not the rapture of "the Church which is His body"... who will experience "our episynagōgēs [noun] UNTO HIM" AS "ONE" when we are "CAUGHT UP/AWAY [harpagēsometha]" to the meeting [noun] of the Lord "IN THE AIR"...]

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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    My question is specific to HOW do the Elect get gathered after the GT.

    Also where will they be gathered to?
    Those who remain alive, I Thess 4:17, will meet Jesus in the atmosphere and then be with Him in Jerusalem for the Millennium.

    This spiritual transportation is not a transformation or those people being made immortal. It is just a shifting from where they are; around the world, to where Jesus is. We have examples of the way God does this with Philip, Acts 8:39 and Isaiah 60:8-9, Isaiah 66:20

    The main point with Matthew 24:31 and I Thess 4:17, is that the 'elect' are still on earth when Jesus Returns. This fact is proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7. There is no rapture removal to heaven for anyone, we will all be tested by the difficult times to come and those found worthy are those whom the angels will gather.

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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    My question is specific to HOW do the Elect get gathered after the GT.

    Also where will they be gathered to?
    Angels gather and escort us into the immediate presence of God before his throne.

    Rev 7

    9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,

    “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying,

    “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me,“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”


    Rev 21
    Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

    5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    My question is specific to HOW do the Elect get gathered after the GT.

    Also where will they be gathered to?
    Matt 24
    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    [...]
    Matt 25
    “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’

    7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

    1] It's important to understand that there is no 'whisking away' rapture. There is only being 'gathered together'.

    2] Jesus doesn't exactly show up in Matt 24, which is the timeframe of the 6th Seal/ 1st Trumpet. People see the 'sign of the son of man' & his 'coming', but Jesus hasn't arrived yet. We know this because Jesus seemingly arrives sometime at the 2nd woe, for the 'come up here' that concludes that woe. Even at the 6th Bowl war/ Armageddon, he says, 'I am coming like a thief'.

    We also know this because at Matt 25 above, the 'kingdom of heaven' starts at the 7th Trumpet/ 3rd woe. Because there is no 'whisked away' rapture, there are 'real' Christians mixed with 'Christians in name only'. Real Christians are the 'wheat', 'Christians in name only' are tares. Tares look like wheat, and tares, themselves, even think that they are wheat. So in Matt 25, the 'wise virgins' are gathered by the 'messengers'/ 'angels' (the Greek 'angels' actually is 'messengers', sometimes 'supernatural messengers'. The 'foolish virgins' go to get 'oil' and become bound to Jezebel (the unfaithful 'wife' who leads people into temptation & great tribulation Rev 2:18-24 - the whore riding the 7 headed dragon).

    The tares are bound & then burned. They think that they are 'getting oil'.

    the wheat are gathered into the 'barn' with the 'come up here' at the end of the 2nd woe.

    Actually, that is the 2nd time that Christians are gathered. 1st, they are gathered at the 7th Seal, then at the end of the 2nd woe.

    Isaiah 11
    10 In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious.

    11 In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush,[a] from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.

    12
    He will raise a signal for the nations
    and will assemble the banished of Israel,
    and gather the dispersed of Judah
    from the four corners of the earth.
    13
    The jealousy of Ephraim shall depart,
    and those who harass Judah shall be cut off;
    Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah,
    and Judah shall not harass Ephraim.

    It's the same thing going on in Joel 2
    30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.

    There's the 'sun, moon to dark, stars fall, etc' of the 6th Seal & Trumpets 1-4 (the sun, moon, stars events hinge on the ambiguous word 'Before' which can also mean 'in the face of', ie - 'at the literal start of' - so, the 6th Seal sun, moon, stars etc refers to the 'before the day' meaning & the Trumpets 1-4 sun, moon, stars events refer to the 'literal start' meaning of the Day of the Lord.

    So where is the 1st gathering mentioned in Revelation? at the 7 Seal, between the 6th Seal & 1st Trumpet - just as Joel says above: all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved'.

    3] So how are people gathered by the survivors & messengers? By the 'signal' mentioned in Isaiah 11 above. That word, 'signal', is H5251 'Nes' http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5251.htm and it means: a standard (meaning a flag), a banner, ensign, signal, sign. When people ask, what's the sign of the son of man? It means the 'great sign' of Rev 12:1 (the Sept. 23, 2017 star sign) & also means a sign by which other Christians will know other Christians. I think that the US flag will be used to try to convince people that this is the 'sign' to rally around.

    In Isa 11:12 above it says, 'He will raise a signal for the nations
    and will assemble the banished of Israel,
    and gather the dispersed of Judah
    from the four corners of the earth.


    The 'banished of Israel' is sometimes translated as 'outcasts of Israel'. The 'dispersed of Judah' refers to Matt 24's 'let those in Judea flee'. It really amounts to the same thing: those that won't worship the abomination statue have to flee. After they flee, they are 'gathered ' via the symbol that will gather the people who won't worship the statue. See Maccabees 1 & 2 (chpters 1-4 suffices for both books. gets tedious after the 4th chapters)

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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    My question is specific to HOW do the Elect get gathered after the GT.

    Also where will they be gathered to?
    Before this Op can even remotely be discussed properly, it first has to be determined as to whom are being meant by elect here. If one group sees it being the ethnic Jews, and another group sees it being the church which is comprised of both the ethnic Jews and the Gentiles, we will never be on the same page about this, thus going in circles about this and never coming into agreement about any of it. As to me, I see the elect meaning the church in this context.

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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Before this Op can even remotely be discussed properly, it first has to be determined as to whom are being meant by elect here. If one group sees it being the ethnic Jews, and another group sees it being the church which is comprised of both the ethnic Jews and the Gentiles, we will never be on the same page about this, thus going in circles about this and never coming into agreement about any of it. As to me, I see the elect meaning the church in this context.

    Jesus comes after the GT to gather his elect from all nations.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    My question is specific to HOW do the Elect get gathered after the GT.

    Also where will they be gathered to?
    Jesus tells us Himself, where His Elect, will be gathered, at His Coming.

    Jesus taught, "the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." Mark 13:26

  9. #9

    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    To add to the thoughts in my previous post, Daniel was told, in Dan12:13, "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest [in death], and stand in thy lot [that is, be resurrected to stand again on the earth] at the END of the days [the days referred to in Daniel 12]"... Dan12:12 (the preceding verse) says, regarding those who will be still living at that future time, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

    This part correlates with the numerous "BLESSED" passages I've posted before, that refer to the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom commencing upon Christ's Second Coming to the earth (aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" / MK; aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth]"). [Rev19:9 "BLESSED" regarding the "invited GUESTS [plural]" (pertaining to the FEAST/SUPPER) as distinct from the Rev19:7 "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" (pertaining to the MARRIAGE itself) who is shown to be "already-wed" [aorist] (in heaven) at the time of Rev19's "return" of Christ (see Luke 12:36-38,40 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal! [the 'feast/supper' being the MK and their entrance into that time period, on the earth])] The "Bride/Wife [singular]" returns "WITH Him".



    So yes, the OT saints (like Daniel) will be present there also FOR "the wedding feast/supper" (their promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [Matt8:11, etc]).

    Truly, "gathered from the extremities" (not one left out! [only the "[unsaved] dead" who will await the GWTj])

  10. #10

    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Before this Op can even remotely be discussed properly, it first has to be determined as to whom are being meant by elect here. If one group sees it being the ethnic Jews, and another group sees it being the church which is comprised of both the ethnic Jews and the Gentiles, we will never be on the same page about this, thus going in circles about this and never coming into agreement about any of it. As to me, I see the elect meaning the church in this context.
    Your points are good and correct.

    We are the Elect because we have and manifest the power of the Lord in our respective estates (ages, realms or generations in the Lord that we attain). It is also important to know that we are the Called because we have and manifest the name of the Lord.

    At the loud trumpet call, angels (ministering spirits) gather the Elect from the four winds of heaven (four estates that are of the Lord).

    By adding to the Church, the Spirit (by whom are angels/ministering spirits) gathers the Elect into the Body of Christ.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Before this Op can even remotely be discussed properly, it first has to be determined as to whom are being meant by elect here. If one group sees it being the ethnic Jews, and another group sees it being the church which is comprised of both the ethnic Jews and the Gentiles, we will never be on the same page about this, thus going in circles about this and never coming into agreement about any of it. As to me, I see the elect meaning the church in this context.
    The best answer so far. The "Elect" can refer to four peoples, so it must be decided to whom it applies.
    1. In Isaiah 42:1 and 1st Peter 2:6 our Lord Jesus is called "mine Elect"
    2. In Isaiah 45:4 Israel is God's "Elect"
    3. In Romans 8:33 the Church is God's "Elect"
    4. In 1st Timothy 5:21 certain angels are "Elect"

    So the context must decide. And the context of Matthew 24:1-31 is the Jews. It starts off with their Temple, it continues with Jerusalem, Judea, the Law, the Sabbath, the Abomination of Desolation (which pertains to "Daniel's People" - Dan.9:24), and the place where our Lord Jesus will touch down, the Mount of Olives (Zech.14:4). Added to this, it is only Jews who were scattered to four winds (Jer.49:36) and who will be gathered from four winds (Ezek.37:9).

    Thus, the "ELECT" of Matthew 24:31 pertains to Jews who are scattered all over the world, and they will be GATHERED back to the Good Land by angels.

    See also,
    • Isaiah 11:12; "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."
    • Isaiah 54:7; "For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee."
    • Jeremiah 23:3; "And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase."
    • Jeremiah 29:14: "And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive."

    ... and many more. These all pertain to Israel.

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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    My question is specific to HOW do the Elect get gathered after the GT.

    Also where will they be gathered to?
    The literal translation of Matthew 24:31 from the Greek reads, "And He-shall-set-off to-the-ones to-messengers of-it with of-a-trumpet of-great, and they-shall-lead-together-upon to-the-ones to-come forth-out of-it out of-the-ones of-four of-winds of-extremities of-skies unto-if-which [of-the-ones] of-extremities of-them" - meaning this event will set off a clarion call to those whom He has sent out to lead those whom He has called from the extremities of the earth into His Millennial Kingdom

  13. #13

    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Some really good posts have been made. Most of which I agree with. Points that I would emphasize or add to would be:
    1. The timing of the great trumpet would be the first Yom Kippur that follows the great tribulation, namely the jubilee trumpet. Isa 61:1 says "to proclaim [both] the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God.
    2. The regathering of Israel one by one is an important part to understand is that the regathering is not just a simple one time collective gathering of Israel at the end.
    3. The elect are of the tribes of Israel. Primarily because the rapture is a past event at the time of the blowing of the great trumpet. Because the judgment upon Israel has been completed and the "sinners of my people" have been removed and only the elect, those foreknown to receive salvation remain. Amos 9. Eze. 37 says that they will be gathered back and THEN he will put his spirit upon them that they may know that "I am the Lord".
    4. The "second" time that God sets his hand to gather his people, is In contrast to the first time when they came out of Egypt. (From isa. 11). Eze. 39:25ff says that God will "set his hand again to bring forth the captivity of his people" AFTER "they have borne their shame and their trespasses.
    5. They will be gathered (from the four winds) TO Egypt, Assyria, Cush, Shinar, Pathros, Hamath, and Elam, and from the isles of the sea (Isa. 11) before they will be allowed to enter into the promised land. Nothing unclean or defiled, shall be allowed to enter the land once the land has been purged of its idolatry, Is. 2:19, et al. What will bring them there? The preaching of the gospel of the kingdom in all of the world (whither the Lord has driven them- into all the winds, Eze. 5:12). [A MOST IMPORTANT POINT TO NOTE IS THAT THESE 7 PLACES FOUND IN ISAIAH 11 ARE ALL ON THE OUTSKIRTS OF THE LAND PROMISED TO ABRAHAM]
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Before this Op can even remotely be discussed properly, it first has to be determined as to whom are being meant by elect here. If one group sees it being the ethnic Jews, and another group sees it being the church which is comprised of both the ethnic Jews and the Gentiles, we will never be on the same page about this, thus going in circles about this and never coming into agreement about any of it. As to me, I see the elect meaning the church in this context.
    Why exactly do you believe *who* he gathers is relevant to the *How* and to *where*?

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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The best answer so far. The "Elect" can refer to four peoples, so it must be decided to whom it applies.
    1. In Isaiah 42:1 and 1st Peter 2:6 our Lord Jesus is called "mine Elect"
    2. In Isaiah 45:4 Israel is God's "Elect"
    3. In Romans 8:33 the Church is God's "Elect"
    4. In 1st Timothy 5:21 certain angels are "Elect"

    So the context must decide. And the context of Matthew 24:1-31 is the Jews. It starts off with their Temple, it continues with Jerusalem, Judea, the Law, the Sabbath, the Abomination of Desolation (which pertains to "Daniel's People" - Dan.9:24), and the place where our Lord Jesus will touch down, the Mount of Olives (Zech.14:4). Added to this, it is only Jews who were scattered to four winds (Jer.49:36) and who will be gathered from four winds (Ezek.37:9).

    Thus, the "ELECT" of Matthew 24:31 pertains to Jews who are scattered all over the world, and they will be GATHERED back to the Good Land by angels.

    See also,
    • Isaiah 11:12; "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."
    • Isaiah 54:7; "For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee."
    • Jeremiah 23:3; "And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase."
    • Jeremiah 29:14: "And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive."

    ... and many more. These all pertain to Israel.
    In Matt 24 'elect' is used in the following verses. Do you agree or disagree that 'elect' in all of these verses have the exact same people in mind?

    Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


    Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    If you agree the same people are in mind in the above three verses, let's look at the first two a bit closer.

    Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    25 Behold, I have told you before.
    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    First of all, ethnic Jews who have not yet converted to Christianity, what does this logically make them? Unbelievers of course. Ethnic Jews who have converted to Christianity, what does this logically make them? The church of course, IOW believers. So let's insert 'unbelievers' in the text to be referring to ethnic Jews who have not converted to Christianity, and let's also do the same with believers, then ask ourselves which makes better sense of the text, and which seems to make the text nonsensical.


    Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the UNBELIEVER'S sake those days shall be shortened.
    23 Then if any man shall say unto you THE UNBELIEVERS, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very UNBELIEVERS.
    25 Behold, I have told you UNBELIEVERS THIS before.
    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you THE UNBELIEVERS, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


    Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the BELIEVER'S sake those days shall be shortened.
    23 Then if any man shall say unto you THE BELIEVERS, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very BELIEVERS.
    25 Behold, I have told you BELIEVERS THIS before.
    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you THE BELIEVERS, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


    Which makes better sense of the text? The former or the latter? Whicch seems to make the text nonsensical? The former or the latter?

    If nothing else, verse 24 should easily help us decide about these things.

    From verse 24...

    insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very UNBELIEVERS.

    insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very BELIEVERS.

    Logic says unbelievers would already be deceived and that believers wouldn't be. The fact the text says, if it were possible, they shall deceive...we should easily know from that unbelievers aren't in mind here.


    You indicated it is only the ethnic Jews who were scattered all over the world, as if there were no ethnic Jews that had converted to Christianity at some point, but who are no longer living in Jerusalem but are literally scattered all over the world instead.

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  3. Who are the elect???
    By Diggindeeper in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: Feb 28th 2011, 01:41 PM

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