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Thread: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

  1. #46
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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Those who literally crucified the Lord all those years ago will see him coming as well as the living. This speaks of resurrection and judgment on the living and the dead at his coming and being gathered to either his left or his right in eternal judgment....glorification or separation.
    I understand the phrase "even those who pierced him" different than you. John is continually alluding to fulfillments of old testament prophecy throughout the book of Revelation. The phrase "those who pierced Him" is a direct quote from Zechariah 12 which in context is about the "day of the Lord" when Jesus is revealed from heaven and the NATION OF ISRAEL recognizes Him as their Messiah.

    Zec 12:9 "It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 "In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.12 "And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 "the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 "all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.



    Zechariah is using the phrase "those who pierced him" to speak of the whole nation as a responsible people group for His crucifixion and their rejection of Him for the past two thousand years. It is that FUTURE Jewish people on the earth when the Lord returns that will "mourn" over thier rejection of Him. It is not talking about the INDIVIDUALS from Christ 1st advent. The context of Zec 12-14 is the Day of the Lord when all nations come against Jerusalem. The result of this group is positive in that the "spirit of grace and supplication" comes upon them. That hardly could be applied to the wicked dead Israelites that crucified Jesus.

  2. #47
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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    I understand the phrase "even those who pierced him" different than you. John is continually alluding to fulfillments of old testament prophecy throughout the book of Revelation. The phrase "those who pierced Him" is a direct quote from Zechariah 12 which in context is about the "day of the Lord" when Jesus is revealed from heaven and the NATION OF ISRAEL recognizes Him as their Messiah.

    Zec 12:9 "It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 "In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.12 "And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 "the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 "all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.



    Zechariah is using the phrase "those who pierced him" to speak of the whole nation as a responsible people group for His crucifixion and their rejection of Him for the past two thousand years. It is that FUTURE Jewish people on the earth when the Lord returns that will "mourn" over thier rejection of Him. It is not talking about the INDIVIDUALS from Christ 1st advent. The context of Zec 12-14 is the Day of the Lord when all nations come against Jerusalem. The result of this group is positive in that the "spirit of grace and supplication" comes upon them. That hardly could be applied to the wicked dead Israelites that crucified Jesus.
    Is not that scripture regarding looking upon him who they have pierced already fulfilled.?

    Jn 19
    33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

    35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36 For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “Not a bone of Him shall be broken.” 37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  3. #48

    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Is not that scripture regarding looking upon him who they have pierced already fulfilled.?

    Jn 19
    33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

    35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36 For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “Not a bone of Him shall be broken.” 37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”
    Zech 12 has two parts to its fulfillment, the piercing of Jesus and the repenting of the Jews who had pierced him. The repenting of the Jews takes place at Jesus' coming.

    Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
    and “every eye will see him,
    even those who pierced him”;
    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
    So shall it be! Amen.


    Zech 12 refers to Christ's Coming, when those who pierced Christ will repent. John 19 merely documents the time when the "piercing" actually takes place--not when the Jews will repent.

  4. #49
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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Zech 12 has two parts to its fulfillment, the piercing of Jesus and the repenting of the Jews who had pierced him. The repenting of the Jews takes place at Jesus' coming.

    Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
    and “every eye will see him,
    even those who pierced him”;
    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
    So shall it be! Amen.


    Zech 12 refers to Christ's Coming, when those who pierced Christ will repent. John 19 merely documents the time when the "piercing" actually takes place--not when the Jews will repent.
    Those who pierced him are dead. What of Judas who played his part in piercing him? Are all the men of Israel who voted for Barabbas going to repent?



    act 2
    22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.


    36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified

    37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  5. #50
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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Did you mean "pretrib" instead of "premil"? Your above paragraph would be consistent with historic (post trib) premillennialism.
    My mistake. Yes, I meant Pretrib. Thanks.

  6. #51
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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    I assume you mean pretrib? As far as I know, I haven't found anyone who has figured out what exactly the "tribulation of those days" is actually about. It is less than three days total. It has nothing to do with the AC. Jesus is the one to cause the GT in the heavens, on the earth, and in the oceans, but that would take a very long post to explain. This three day GT is the call at midnight saying, "the bridegroom is coming. Go out to meet Him."
    Yes, Pretrib. Where did you get the "3 days tribulation of those days"? I'd like to read up to be able to respond better.
    Bless

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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Those who pierced him are dead. What of Judas who played his part in piercing him? Are all the men of Israel who voted for Barabbas going to repent?



    act 2
    22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.


    36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified

    37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
    The fact that the generation which crucified Jesus is long gone does not negate the validity of the prophecy. God's covenant with Israel remains valid. The generation of Moses that received the Law are equally long dead, but did it make the succeeding generations unaccountable for the law?

    Randyk's post #48 correctly addressed the point. I will just add that in addition to what he said; every *eye* worldwide will see him, but for the Jews, it will be a special dispensation:

    Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    The above leaves no doubt that for the Jew the experience will be the most traumatic given that Judaism denies not only the responsibility of Christ's death, blaming it instead on the Romans but, his Messiahship too. Imagine how they'll feel to suddenly realize they have been wrong all along?

  8. #53
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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Is not that scripture regarding looking upon him who they have pierced already fulfilled.?

    Jn 19
    33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

    35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36 For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “Not a bone of Him shall be broken.” 37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”
    Regardless of anyone's eschatology position (except for full preterists), the very fact that John associated this prophecy with the “Coming of Christ” (rev 1:7) automatically demands that this prophecy was not fully completed at the death of Christ on the cross in John 19. What was “fulfilled” in John 19 was the necessary component for this prophecy to come to pass, namely the “piercing of Jesus” by the will of the Jewish people.


    In order for an amillennialist to make the prophecy of Zechariah 12 to be the 1st coming, they must be consistent and show HOW the entirety of the prophecies in CONTEXT were fulfilled at the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. IMO, this is an impossible feat without appealing to extreme allegory and thus rendering the natural use of language as irrelevant.



    CONTEXT OF ZECHARIAH 12



    - When did “all nations gather together to fight against Jerusalem” at the 1st coming (12:3)?


    - When did the Lord strike those wicked armies with “blindness” (12:4) at the first coming?


    - When did the leaders of Jerusalem and its inhabitants “devour the surrounding nations” at the 1st coming? (12:6)


    - When did the “feeble” among Jerusalem become like “David” and “destroy all the nations” at the 1st coming” (12:9)


    - When did the “house of David” mourn and the “spirit of grace and supplication” come upon them when “they looked upon Me whom they pierced” at the 1st coming (12:10)?


    - When did all of Israel “house by house” mourn over their rejection of the messiah like the whole nation did when Josiah died at “megiddo”? (12:11-12)


    - When did God “cut off all idolatry and unclean spirits” and false prophets from the land of Israel? (13:1-6)


    - When did 2/3 of Israel die and 1/3 come through the fire and become “God’s people” at the 1st coming? (13:9)




    Even appealing to 70AD leaves the reader with a massive amount of unfulfilled information. Specifically the fact that God promised to "defend the city of Jerusalem" and "destroy the invading armies". The opposite transpired in 70 AD with the invading militaries destroying Jerusalem and then Rome continued to exisit for hundreds of years without judgment.


    Since none of these questions above regarding the CONTEXT of Zec 12-13 can be answered in a 1st coming timeline, but all of them match perfectly with the 2nd coming timeline, then we must give pause to trying to locate Zec 12 in the 1st coming, especially when John quotes the same verse in the Apocalypse and associates it with the 2nd coming (Rev 1:7).

    Ireneaus who was Polycarp's disciple (who was discipled directly by John), unquestionably located the prophecy of Zec 12:10 AT THE SECOND ADVENT

    Against Heresies Book 4 XXXIII
    For some of them, beholding Him in glory, saw His glorious life (conversationem) at the Father’s right hand; (Isa 6:1; Psa 110:1) others beheld Him coming on the clouds as the Son of man; (Dan 7:13) and those who declared regarding Him, “They shall look on Him whom they have pierced,” (Zec 12:10) indicated His second advent

    You asked the question, “what about Judas” and other jews who helped crucify Jesus. They will stand before Jesus at the GWT. However, we cannot ignore the context of the FOUNDATIONAL passage of Rev 1:7 that is explicitly about the FUTURE Jewish people group (those who pierced Him) and their ultimate embrace of their Messiah when they repent of their unbelief. Paul harmonized this prophecy beautifully in Romans 9:25-26 when he stated that “Then all Israel shall be saved” when the “Deliverer comes out of Zion”. Jesus return is the key for the nation of Israel as a whole to be grafted back in.

  9. #54

    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Those who pierced him are dead. What of Judas who played his part in piercing him? Are all the men of Israel who voted for Barabbas going to repent?
    Yes, I know. My only answer to this is that this may be referring to the Jewish People, and not necessarily to the people living at the time of Jesus. The Jews pierced Jesus. They crucified him, or had the Romans do it. And the Jews will repent of the historic act committed by the Jewish People.

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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Yes, Pretrib. Where did you get the "3 days tribulation of those days"? I'd like to read up to be able to respond better.
    Bless
    It is a radical idea given what is so often taught. I'll have to start another thread to lay out all the scriptures concerning this. You may be surprised how many times this three day/very brief/mere moment period is confirmed in scripture. The big issue comes from trying to reassemble the OD. None of the gospels have all the content. It takes combining the accounts and filling the gaps of the other to really see it. Once it is understood, you will be surprised how many times scripture confirms it.

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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    It is a radical idea given what is so often taught. I'll have to start another thread to lay out all the scriptures concerning this. You may be surprised how many times this three day/very brief/mere moment period is confirmed in scripture. The big issue comes from trying to reassemble the OD. None of the gospels have all the content. It takes combining the accounts and filling the gaps of the other to really see it. Once it is understood, you will be surprised how many times scripture confirms it.
    Sounds interesting. Can't wait for your Thread of the subject.

    Thanks.

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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?


    The scripture is fulfilled.
    The soldier who testified didn't break his legs, but pierced him. He saw a fountain opened for sin in one day .....coming out of his wound. Zech Prophecy is clearly about his first coming and the whole Christian era till his climactic second coming.

    zech 3
    8 “‘Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9 See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day..

    zech 13
    “On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.

    zech 6
    12 Tell him this is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the Lord. 13 It is he who will build the temple of the Lord, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two.’



    zech 9
    9 Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
    Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
    See, your king comes to you,
    righteous and victorious,
    lowly and riding on a donkey,
    on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
    10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim
    and the warhorses from Jerusalem,
    and the battle bow will be broken.
    He will proclaim peace to the nations.
    His rule will extend from sea to sea
    and from the River to the ends of the earth.

    zech 11
    12 I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
    13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the Lord.

    zech 12
    “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
    10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

    zech 13
    6 If someone asks, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ they will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’
    7 “Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
    against the man who is close to me!”
    declares the Lord Almighty.
    “Strike the shepherd,
    and the sheep will be scattered,
    and I will turn my hand against the little ones.
    8 In the whole land,” declares the Lord,
    “two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
    yet one-third will be left in it.
    9 This third I will put into the fire;
    I will refine them like silver
    and test them like gold.
    They will call on my name
    and I will answer them;
    I will say, ‘They are my people,’
    and they will say, ‘The Lord is our God.’”

    matt 26:31

    Jesus was struck and the sheep were scattered
    Holy Spirit poured out through grace as one gazes upon the one who was pierced.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  13. #58
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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Is not that scripture regarding looking upon him who they have pierced already fulfilled.?

    Jn 19
    33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

    35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36 For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “Not a bone of Him shall be broken.” 37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”
    In John's day they looked on whom they pierced but they didn't mourn for him as one mourns for an only son. The distinction is a matter of perspective. Who did the Jewish religious authorities think they pierced, the messiah? An only son? In their view, they pierced a blasphemer. I think Zechariah is predicting a time when the Jewish people will revisit the question and realize that they pierced the "only Son", the messiah. Then they will mourn.

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    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Those who pierced him are dead. What of Judas who played his part in piercing him? Are all the men of Israel who voted for Barabbas going to repent?
    Personally i don't think they repent but i believe they See Jesus coming.

    That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

  15. #60

    Re: How Jesus gathers His Elect After the GT and to Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Personally i don't think they repent but i believe they See Jesus coming.

    That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    Good point! I'm assuming you believe the "things under the earth" are those who are *dead?*

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