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Thread: Fundamental or Spirit filled(moved from GIC)

  1. #421
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    Re: Fundamental or Spirit filled(moved from GIC)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    Not to speak for Brother Mark, but the Kingdom is about how Jesus entered out time and space to set His Kingdom up. The Kingdom is here now, within us and all around us. As a result of Jesus entering our time and space to do this, there exists and offer of salvation. Salvation is only one of the results of Jesus' Kingdom.

    His Kingdom is here and it's coming.

    It's not about us, it's about Jesus, His Kingdom all to the glory of God.
    What if a man refuses to believe that such a kingdom exists or that someone other than Jesus will lead that kingdom? Is this a salvation issue?

  2. #422
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    Re: Fundamental or Spirit filled(moved from GIC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    So the question would be if they fall from faith or from teaching? I do not believe it is from faith where falling from faith is to not be saved anymore.
    They fall from faith, ya ever read the letter to Sardis? It's the 1st letter of correction... for those who are falling away from faith.

    Rev 3:1-6

    Here is the key verse: 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.

    Ya can't soil a garment, UNLESS you have a garment to soil. The letter punches a huge hole in Calvinism/Reformed positions (all of them).

    Another cool thing, what Brother Mark is talking about, check this: James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

    I underlined that one part... worthy means not staining oneself AFTER receiving clean garments. There are those who abide and overcome, an die (physically) in a clean garment, or there are those GIVEN a white garment (become a member of the Body) and due to allowing the world to stain them, or in other words, they DID not overcome... this is what happens to them:

    v 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

    So... those given a white garment when they received the Word (v3) but only some are keeping clean (v4)... the scriptures point out what happens when you keep the garment clean verse NOT keeping the garment clean: those who don't, ARE blotted out of the Book of Life.
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  3. #423

    Re: Fundamental or Spirit filled(moved from GIC)

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    What if a man refuses to believe that such a kingdom exists or that someone other than Jesus will lead that kingdom? Is this a salvation issue?
    They may not have a clear understanding of why Jesus entered here, they probably still think it's about them.

  4. #424

    Re: Fundamental or Spirit filled(moved from GIC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    They fall from faith, ya ever read the letter to Sardis? It's the 1st letter of correction... for those who are falling away from faith.

    Rev 3:1-6

    Here is the key verse: 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.

    Ya can't soil a garment, UNLESS you have a garment to soil. The letter punches a huge hole in Calvinism/Reformed positions (all of them).

    Another cool thing, what Brother Mark is talking about, check this: James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

    I underlined that one part... worthy means not staining oneself AFTER receiving clean garments. There are those who abide and overcome, an die (physically) in a clean garment, or there are those GIVEN a white garment (become a member of the Body) and due to allowing the world to stain them, or in other words, they DID not overcome... this is what happens to them:

    v 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

    So... those given a white garment when they received the Word (v3) but only some are keeping clean (v4)... the scriptures point out what happens when you keep the garment clean verse NOT keeping the garment clean: those who don't, ARE blotted out of the Book of Life.
    What about the verse in Hebrews 10:26?
    I have r3ad opposing views of this passage.
    Thanks.

  5. #425
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    Re: Fundamental or Spirit filled(moved from GIC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    They fall from faith, ya ever read the letter to Sardis? It's the 1st letter of correction... for those who are falling away from faith.

    Rev 3:1-6

    Here is the key verse: 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.

    Ya can't soil a garment, UNLESS you have a garment to soil. The letter punches a huge hole in Calvinism/Reformed positions (all of them).

    Another cool thing, what Brother Mark is talking about, check this: James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

    I underlined that one part... worthy means not staining oneself AFTER receiving clean garments. There are those who abide and overcome, an die (physically) in a clean garment, or there are those GIVEN a white garment (become a member of the Body) and due to allowing the world to stain them, or in other words, they DID not overcome... this is what happens to them:

    v 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

    So... those given a white garment when they received the Word (v3) but only some are keeping clean (v4)... the scriptures point out what happens when you keep the garment clean verse NOT keeping the garment clean: those who don't, ARE blotted out of the Book of Life.
    I think you need to study this more. The letter was written to the church and we know that not all in a church who confess they are believers in fact are believers. You would also see that those who have overcome are the ones who will receive white garments (v5). Those are the ones whose names will not be blotted out from the book of the living. Who are they that overcome than the believers/elect who believe in Christ and bore the fruit of their faith. Our clean garments are clean because of Christ and not of any of our doing. Is there anything worthwhile a man can bring to God to obtain righteousness? No, nothing.

    Secondly if a priest's garments were spotted or defiled he was not allowed to minister. Therefore the church must make sure that they preach and minister the true gospel or they would be defiled and God will take the ministry from them.

    This in no way says what you allude it to say. It is not about people falling from faith and salvation, but about a church falling from its ministry. Those who kept the truth are the true believers. I would think that all of us would agree that a church could fall from the truth as we are witnessing today. Therefore all churches are in danger of soiling there garments. Those who have ears must listen.

  6. #426
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    Re: Fundamental or Spirit filled(moved from GIC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    I think you need to study this more. The letter was written to the church and we know that not all in a church who confess they are believers in fact are believers. You would also see that those who have overcome are the ones who will receive white garments (v5).
    Lets begin here then. You can't stain something you do not have. The verse(s) are pointing out that those GIVEN (v3-5) white... are NOT to stain them (v1-6). This is a WARNING letter to those who have begun to stain the garments, thus the reason FOR the specificity of that letter. If they don't heed the warning, God even informs them of the consequences.
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  7. #427
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    Re: Fundamental or Spirit filled(moved from GIC)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    What about the verse in Hebrews 10:26?
    I have r3ad opposing views of this passage.
    Thanks.
    Start a thread on this
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  8. #428
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    Re: Fundamental or Spirit filled(moved from GIC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Lets begin here then. You can't stain something you do not have. The verse(s) are pointing out that those GIVEN (v3-5) white... are NOT to stain them (v1-6). This is a WARNING letter to those who have begun to stain the garments, thus the reason FOR the specificity of that letter. If they don't heed the warning, God even informs them of the consequences.
    The context is ministry and therefore the warning to not follow other doctrines, to not become cold or indifferent towards the doctrines of grace, to endure and persevere with the service towards the congregation and the preaching of the truth as received by them. This is surely a warning as applicable for today as ever.

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    Re: Fundamental or Spirit filled(moved from GIC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    The context is ministry and therefore the warning to not follow other doctrines, to not become cold or indifferent towards the doctrines of grace, to endure and persevere with the service towards the congregation and the preaching of the truth as received by them. This is surely a warning as applicable for today as ever.
    While I agree with a portion of your response, I disagree concerning the full understanding of that warning. Jesus is talking about people given white clothes and warned NOT to spoil the white. Which many have done, so they are warned what is planned if they do not turn back from the world. James 5:19-20 is a good dividing verse to help you understand the seriousness of turning to error after the Word is received as detailed in Rev 3. We are exhorted by an Apostle to turn people back from error after they have become brethren... Jesus is just emphasizing what He had James write.
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  10. #430
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    Re: Fundamental or Spirit filled(moved from GIC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    While I agree with a portion of your response, I disagree concerning the full understanding of that warning. Jesus is talking about people given white clothes and warned NOT to spoil the white. Which many have done, so they are warned what is planned if they do not turn back from the world. James 5:19-20 is a good dividing verse to help you understand the seriousness of turning to error after the Word is received as detailed in Rev 3. We are exhorted by an Apostle to turn people back from error after they have become brethren... Jesus is just emphasizing what He had James write.
    The warning is for you as minister as in:

    1Ti 4:16 Watch yourself and watch your teaching. Keep on doing these things, because if you do, you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

    Jesus is the only Saviour and it is only because of what He had done that we are saved through grace. James concur.

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    Re: Fundamental or Spirit filled(moved from GIC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    The warning is for you as minister as in:

    1Ti 4:16 Watch yourself and watch your teaching. Keep on doing these things, because if you do, you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

    Jesus is the only Saviour and it is only because of what He had done that we are saved through grace. James concur.
    Rigth. But what you won't see is that when Jesus is giving the warning in Rev 3, it's to those who have received the Word and have been given white clothes. He's saying DON'T spoil them and for those who HAVE, turn back to Him (repent).
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  12. #432

    Re: Fundamental or Spirit filled(moved from GIC)

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    What if a man refuses to believe that such a kingdom exists or that someone other than Jesus will lead that kingdom? Is this a salvation issue?
    Of course it is a salvation issue. Salvation is offered to those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and believing on Him and in Him includes His Kingship and His eternal Kingdom. The thief on the cross believed in this wholeheartedly, and was thereby saved.

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    Re: Fundamental or Spirit filled(moved from GIC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Rigth. But what you won't see is that when Jesus is giving the warning in Rev 3, it's to those who have received the Word and have been given white clothes. He's saying DON'T spoil them and for those who HAVE, turn back to Him (repent).
    I see, but what you miss is the exact knowledge God has of his elect, the value he has for them, his remembrance of them, his love to them, and care for them. This election is of particular persons by name, and is sure and certain, for those whose names are written in it shall never be blotted out, they will always remain in the number of God's elect, and can never become reprobates, or shall ever perish, because of the unchangeableness of the nature and love of God, the firmness of his purposes, the omnipotence of his arm, the death and intercession of Christ for them, their union to him, and being in him, the impossibility of their seduction by false teachers, and the security of their persons, grace, and glory in Christ. (Gill)

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    Re: Fundamental or Spirit filled(moved from GIC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    I see, but what you miss is the exact knowledge God has of his elect, the value he has for them, his remembrance of them, his love to them, and care for them. This election is of particular persons by name, and is sure and certain, for those whose names are written in it shall never be blotted out, they will always remain in the number of God's elect, and can never become reprobates, or shall ever perish, because of the unchangeableness of the nature and love of God, the firmness of his purposes, the omnipotence of his arm, the death and intercession of Christ for them, their union to him, and being in him, the impossibility of their seduction by false teachers, and the security of their persons, grace, and glory in Christ. (Gill)
    I'm sorry but the scripture teaches what it teaches despite what this person's opinion is. People were given white clothes when they received the Word, but they spoiled them... thus the warning to repent. If they didn't, Jesus tells them He will blot them out.

    Exegesis is concluding what scripture is saying while eisegesis is making the scripture say what we've pre-concluded. If people were secure as you say or this Gill says, then both James and Jesus are making no sense in telling people in error to turn back to God after they've received their white garments.

    Or, do you think the white garments are about AFTER overcoming?

    Jesus is pointing out that overcoming means a person KEPT their white garments white and not spoiled.
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  15. #435
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    Re: Fundamental or Spirit filled(moved from GIC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I'm sorry but the scripture teaches what it teaches despite what this person's opinion is. People were given white clothes when they received the Word, but they spoiled them... thus the warning to repent. If they didn't, Jesus tells them He will blot them out.

    Exegesis is concluding what scripture is saying while eisegesis is making the scripture say what we've pre-concluded. If people were secure as you say or this Gill says, then both James and Jesus are making no sense in telling people in error to turn back to God after they've received their white garments.

    Or, do you think the white garments are about AFTER overcoming?

    Jesus is pointing out that overcoming means a person KEPT their white garments white and not spoiled.
    Rev 3:5 Those who win the victory will be clothed like this in white, and I will not remove their names from the book of the living. In the presence of my Father and of his angels I will declare openly that they belong to me.

    Here it looks like after overcoming.

    Those few men who have kept their garments clean are those who have stayed true to the doctrines of the church. They were not formal lifeless professors of religion. Because they stayed and overcome their names were written in the book.

    Verse 3 is important for it clearly shows that Jesus will come upon the unrepentant to give chastisement or correction so they can turn from their wrong path. For the elect will never be blotted from the book of life. Why do you not hear and turn before you receive the chastisement of God, for God chastise those He loves.

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