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Thread: The Tree of Life and The Living Water

  1. #46
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    Re: The Tree of Life and The Living Water

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I agree the ToL is effectively for mortals but that doesn't mean immortals cannot eat from it, they just don't need to.
    I wonder how the ToL can be for mortals when:

    1. ALL the wicked have already been cast into the LoF (Rev 21:8)
    2. God's tabernacle is here on earth (Rev 21:3) God the Father cannot share the same space with the wicked!
    3. Death, sickness, sorrow, etc. are no more (Rev 21:4)

    I could go on and on, but am sure you get the drift? The "healing" as I said in an earlier post actually means the sustenance of endless life.

    The essence of the OP is to challenge every reader to ask themselves questions about what they really understand about *immortality*? From Revelation 22 we suddenly learn that the Saints will have unfettered access to both the ToL and the LW. The 64 million dollar question then is, why do we need them, if not to sustain the promised endless life?

    Tell me I'm wrong and share your reasons.

  2. #47
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    Re: The Tree of Life and The Living Water

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Yes. The Tree in question is the Tree of Life. I maintain that Adam never ate of "IT". You agree. And now you seek combat again although we actually agree. The grammar is clear.
    Apologies. I didn't set out for *combat* I got you wrong

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    Re: The Tree of Life and The Living Water

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I wonder how the ToL can be for mortals when:

    1. ALL the wicked have already been cast into the LoF (Rev 21:8)
    2. God's tabernacle is here on earth (Rev 21:3) God the Father cannot share the same space with the wicked!
    3. Death, sickness, sorrow, etc. are no more (Rev 21:4)

    I could go on and on, but am sure you get the drift? The "healing" as I said in an earlier post actually means the sustenance of endless life.

    The essence of the OP is to challenge every reader to ask themselves questions about what they really understand about *immortality*? From Revelation 22 we suddenly learn that the Saints will have unfettered access to both the ToL and the LW. The 64 million dollar question then is, why do we need them, if not to sustain the promised endless life?

    Tell me I'm wrong and share your reasons.
    I get the drift, but I have to define mortality and death with scripture. Before Adam sinned he was mortal, he needed the tree of life, and there was no death. Get the drift, or need I explain a little more? Also, the verse give no indication glorified individuals need the ToF "to sustain the promised endless life". In fact, the notion is contrary to everything the NT teaches concerning being like Jesus after the resurrection, but not everyone is resurrected for the millennium and the only individuals resurrected at the end of it are in 'death and hell', not mortals in the millennium. If the original plan was for God to dwell on earth with mortal man, why are you trying to change that, or why do you think God changed it and think it cannot happen?

  4. #49
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    Re: The Tree of Life and The Living Water

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Man in sin having a tree that enables him to escape corruption lives forever separated from Christ. I have no idea why this is difficult to understand.


    Singular? I never said there was only one. Is there only one pear tree? Peach tree? C'mon now. The tree lines the middle of the street in the city and lines the sides of the river. I have no idea why this is difficult to understand.


    No parable. I predict you have nothing more to say, but now that I've said that, you'll come up with something
    I knew you'd duck giving us all an exposition on the Tree of Life. And "Tree" in Hebrew, Greek and English is singular. It was the "TREE of Life", NOT "TREES of Life". But no problem brother. I think we all find it complicated.

  5. #50
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    Re: The Tree of Life and The Living Water

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Apologies. I didn't set out for *combat* I got you wrong
    No problem brother. I'm glad it's sorted out. God bless.

  6. #51

    Re: The Tree of Life and The Living Water

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You raised pertinent questions. I will attempt to address your question whether the LW was in the garden of Eden. I don't think the Living Water was in the garden because that would place the throne of God in the garden and we know that's the case.

    Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

    The above shows that the LW is not independent of God and of the Lamb - Jesus Christ. And since their throne was not in the garden, then the LW couldn't have been there.

    As for the reason, longevity reigned in those days (this is my thoughts, not saying it's based on scripture), I would speculate that God allowed it to enable man to quickly populate the earth. Ever thought of how big the earth is with only a handful of people to populate it? So if people are dying prematurely as they do today, I'll leave you to do the maths...how long before you can count even up to one thousand people.
    The question is, did God dwell on the earth when he created Adam and Eve and in essence the river of life was there? I believe the answer is yes and here are the reasons why.
    1. Before Adam/ Eve sinned, there was no sin or death. When good returns to this earth to dwell with man after the millennium, it will coincide with the abolition of sin and death likewise.

    2. There are 2 things necessary to sustain physical life. Food and water. You can put man in a perfect environment, but give him only water, and he will still die. Bread/food is the sustenance of life. And water is the sustenance of the mechanisms of life. It only has very minimal nutrition. It is quickly dispensed from the body. Now imagine water from the river of life being readily available. It, no doubt would have regenerating qualities. But still without, food, would only be able to sustain one for a little while - as a mortal being. In essence you would have pure water and impure food.

    3. A river flowed out of Eden.
    *[[Gen 2:10]] KJV* And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
    It didn't flow TO Eden, but from there. And no mention is made of preventing man's access to it after the fall.

    4. The garden of Eden was guarded by cherubims. They are found principally in 2 places, elsewise. In the book of Ezekiel, at length in chapter 10, and as part of the crafting of the mercy seat and ark of the covenant, being associated with the presence of God. They are also found in the book of revelation. (more on that in a minute).

    In Ezekiel, they are seen as connected to the presence of God. The glory of God was over and above them.
    *[[Eze 10:19]] KJV* And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above.
    When you look at their description it says that each one(of the four) is the spirit of the living creature(singular). It is the essence of life for the living realm of God and his creation. Angels, humans, and animals. When the bible speaks of there being no death, both before Adam's transgression, and after the millennium, it is the result off having access to the essence of God. When it comes our time to put on immortality, we will no look get have just the firstfruits or earnest of the spirit, but we will be clothed in full essence of God. The essence of the immortal nature of God, will then be our essence. But getting back on track, let's look at the 4 living creatures of revelation 4 (et al). When we compare Ezekiel, and his description of the cherubims, with John's description of the 4 beasts, we find them to be almost identical sketches, with one distinct difference. The number of wings. 4 versus 6. And I believe John answers the question why the difference.
    *[[Rev 5:8]] KJV* And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
    *[[Rev 5:9]] KJV* And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast REDEEMED us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    They have been redeemed. They were given a new body. Does that mean that they lived and died? I don't know, but I believe the answer is yes. It does not really matter if you believe that to be true or not. But they are the same creatures. If they did die, it does not mean that they sinned, just that because of what Adam did, everyone living on planet earth had to die. Why? Because they no longer had access to the TOL.

    My primary point is that everything was then subject to death because they no longer had aces to the TOL. Everything. Including the members of the animal kingdom. Eating of the sustenance of the tree of life, accomplished the regeneration of the life giving forces of the body, that water only, could not sustain. When the scriptures say that nothing will die, when God AND the Tree of Life return, that means nothing. Not angelic, not humans, and not animals. The for faces of the living creatures that John and Ezekiel described, are the essence in totu, of those things that will live forever. I don't think that God would give his very spiritual essence unto the animal kingdom, because he does not have to. They, and all of creation will have access to the Tree of Life.
    Think about this. Why are there animals of predation now, but in the millennial kingdom, that will cease? Because, now it is a fight for survival!

    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

  7. #52
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    Re: The Tree of Life and The Living Water

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I knew you'd duck giving us all an exposition on the Tree of Life. And "Tree" in Hebrew, Greek and English is singular. It was the "TREE of Life", NOT "TREES of Life". But no problem brother. I think we all find it complicated.
    Duck? Hardly! Not something I ever do or am known for, sorry. One tree in the garden. So? I don't see any point to your argument. That kind of tree is found in abundance in the future. Why do you find that shocking or impossible?

  8. #53

    Re: The Tree of Life and The Living Water

    I forgot reason #5.
    *[[Rev 2:7]] KJV* He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    The tree of life is in the midst of the paradise of God.
    Blessings
    GB

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    Re: The Tree of Life and The Living Water

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    *[[Gen 2:16]] KJV* And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
    *[[Gen 2:17]] KJV* But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
    *[[Gen 2:18]] KJV* And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
    *[[Gen 2:19]] KJV* And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

    So where in these verses do you find that man sinned in desiring to have a partner in flesh. It looks tho me that God seen the need, not his wants, and responded to that need, before he even asked.

    We also find within these verses that God commanded the MAN (before he created the woman) and the man only, not to eat of the tree of knowledge. Adam conveyed that to Eve. The serpent was able to convince her that God did not say that TO HER HUSBAND. And thus, she was deceived.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB
    If you don't see it, you don't see it.

    Aristarkos

  10. #55

    Re: The Tree of Life and The Living Water

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    If you don't see it, you don't see it.

    Aristarkos
    If you are talking a bout me not getting what you are talking about, you might try presenting a scripture that makes the connection between Adam, Eve &
    h1. H2403

    Original: *חטּאת חטּאה*

    Transliteration: *chaṭṭâ'âh chaṭṭâ'th*

    Phonetic: *khat-taw-aw'*

    *BDB Definition*:

    # sin, sinful
    # sin, sin offering
    ## sin
    ## condition of sin, guilt of sin
    ## punishment for sin
    ## sin-offering
    ## purification from sins of ceremonial uncleanness

    Origin: from [[d 2398]]

    TWOT entry: 638e

    Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine

    *Strong's Definition*: From [[H2398]]; an _offence_ (sometimes habitual _sinfulness_), and its penalty, occasion, sacrifice, or expiation; also (concretely) an _offender: - _ punishment (of sin), purifying (-fication for sin), sin (-ner, offering).

    Blessings
    GB

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    Re: The Tree of Life and The Living Water

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    If you are talking a bout me not getting what you are talking about, you might try presenting a scripture that makes the connection between Adam, Eve &
    h1. H2403

    [...]

    Blessings
    GB
    Why would I? That's not what I'm talking about, but like I said: You don't see that.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: The Tree of Life and The Living Water

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Duck? Hardly! Not something I ever do or am known for, sorry. One tree in the garden. So? I don't see any point to your argument. That kind of tree is found in abundance in the future. Why do you find that shocking or impossible?
    Then I await, with great anticipation, your exegesis on the "Tree of Life".

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    Re: The Tree of Life and The Living Water

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    that doesn't mean immortals cannot eat from it, they just don't need to.

    Why do they eat from it then if they don't need to? To accomplish exactly what? Why is it so hard for some to grasp, that it is the likely the continual eating from the TOL that sustains immortality? Revelation makes it clear, and that you at least don't seem to be disputing it, the saved eat of the TOL post the 2nd coming. Doesn't Gen 3 make it perfectly clear that the TOL is connected with living forever? Do not the saved lived forever? What should this mean after we have connected the dots?

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    Re: The Tree of Life and The Living Water

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Studying Scripture is never a wild goose chase, but growing in Christ. I'll show you what I mean if you can't be bothered to look for it yourself:

    In Genesis, we see Eve is the one initially sinning and Adam choosing Eve over God, so two sin, but actually in a different way. Yet what tells Paul us in Romans 5? By the act of ONE man's transgression we all die, and by ONE « man's » obedience we are all justified. Look at the structure:

    A1 | 5:12 — 14 by one man sin and death
    .....B1 | 5:15 Grace surpasses the crime
    .....B2 | 5:16, 17 Grace leads to justifying
    A2 | 5:18 — 21 By one man justification and life

    So, taking into account we have to notice the things that differ (Php. 1:10) and rightly divide the Word of truth, two does not equal one. So there is something else Paul reveals here and it is not mentioned in Genesis, but still written there.

    Gen 2:20 « And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. »

    This may sound innocent — the bold part — but it isn't. Adam at that point was still the undamaged image of the Son and in direct spiritual contact with God. The Hebrew word used for « found » has two meanings. 1. looking for something that was lost. 2. looking for something one desires. Adam didn't lost his « help meet », so he desired one and that was rejecting God as his sole purpose of life. He sinned. The fact that God made him the « help meet » anyway just shows His Grace. The full first man Adam gets split into man and woman and when Eve ate from the forbidden fruit, Adam for the second time chose his desire for a « help meet » over God.

    Aristarkos
    I study my Bible daily.

    All I asked is that you provide the specific verse your case is based on? I can read Rom 5 without knowing what you are referring to. I am still struggling to make sense of your argument? The first Adam's fall that brought sin and death to man and the second Adam (Christ) whose obedience brought grace and redemption to man is not the point of discussion.

    Your claim that Adam's first sin was "choosing Eve over God" is unfounded. His recognized sin is that he ate the forbidden fruit. The Bible has no other sin against him BEFORE that.

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    Re: The Tree of Life and The Living Water

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    I don't think you truly understand my exposition about what Adam did and when. Sin is in the O.T. a translation from the word « chata » which means « missing ones goal ». In Greek the word for sin is « hamartia » and means the same, missing ones goal. When Adam desired a « help meet » he missed his goal (That's why later the Law says: Thou shalt not covet). He offended God by desiring flesh over God. This is the one man's sin Paul talks about and he sets against the one Man Christ.

    Aristarkos
    It looks as if you have not studied Genesis in full. Adam did not request a "help mate"!!! God gave him one on his own volition.

    Gen 2:15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

    16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

    Verse 18 is very clear that it was God's decision alone to provide Adam with a company. IOW, Adam didn't ask for it. So your assertion has no real scriptural foundation.

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