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Thread: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

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    Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    There is a huge difference between saying that people are saved and then elected, or they are elected and then saved. The Bible teaches the first doctrine while Calvinism or Reformed Theology teaches the second.

    If people are elected (chosen) for salvation and then saved, it means that:

    1. God did not want the whole world to be saved.

    2. Christ died only for the elect.

    3. The majority are “elected” for damnation. (One cannot have some elected for salvation and deny that at the same time others are elected for damnation).

    The acronym TULIP presents the Five Points of Calvinism, and they stand or fall together. One of those points is U for Unconditional Election. According to their own definition from http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/

    Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).


    [We will leave off the discussion of Eph 1:4-8, since it actually teaches that those who are saved are elected and predestined “to be holy and without blame” having been adopted into God’s family, so that we should be to the praise of God’s glory]

    Romans 9:15,21

    For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    What this passage reveals is only the fact that God is the one who decides on whom He will have mercy, and that because of this fact some men will receive honour (through salvation) while others will receive dishonour (through damnation).

    But what does the rest of the New Testament teach?

    1. Christ died for the sins of the whole world (Isaiah 53:1-12; Hebrews 2:9), “took away” the sin of the world (John 1:29) , and became the propitiation (satisfactory sacrifice) for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Which means that God would have mercy on all, if all would repent and believc.

    2. Christ came into the world not to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved (John 3:17). Which means that God would have mercy on all, if all would repent and believc.

    3. God will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4). Which means that God would have mercy on all, if all would repent and believc.

    4. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Which means that God would have mercy on all, if all would repent and believc.

    5. God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), which means that if all would repent, all would be saved. Which means that God would have mercy on all, if all would repent and believc.

    6. The Holy Spirit and the Bride (the Church) offer the water of life freely to “whosoever” will take of it (Revelation 22”17). Whosoever means anyone and everyone without exception. Which means that God would have mercy on all, if all would repent and believc.

    In other words, no one is elected to be saved, but those who are saved are elected for glorification (Romans 8:29,30).
    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

  2. #2
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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    I believe that election/predestination is tied to God's foreknowledge, as we see in Romans 8:29-30, rather than fatalistic determination, as taught in Calvinism.
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  3. #3

    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    It is not that people are "elected" before salvation, but they are the "elect" before salvation. They are foreknown, but not predestined to obtain salvation. It does not violate the sovereignty of God foreknow who'll be saved without foreordaining who will be saved.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post

    [...]

    The acronym TULIP presents the Five Points of Calvinism, and they stand or fall together. One of those points is U for Unconditional Election. According to their own definition from http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/

    [...]
    Against Calvin's TULIP I would suggest God's ROSES:

    Really
    Only
    Scriptures
    Elucidate
    Salvation

    There is no such thing as Unconditional Election. Too many Christian denominations mistake « elect » for « elite ». Anybody willing to do the study without prejudice, will discover that election by God always is to the benefit of others, and that the goal is never to safe the elected. Salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8), not by predetermination.

    Even at the end of the road of salvation we are still summoned to work on our own salvation:

    Php. 2:12 « ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling »

    Calvinism is just another human doctrine, that others have declared to be the truth. It isn't, it does short to God's love, diminishes the unmeasurable value of Christs blood and gives its followers a false sense of security and false hopes.

    Proof that election doesn't safe is Judas Iscariot and the Israelite people who didn't confirm their election until now, but will do so when the Lord returns. Thus, when God elects, it is never for who you are but what you can do for Him in His purpose of the aions. (Ehp. 3:11). Non of us is so important that God will favor one over the other. Believing so is haughtiness and that comes before the fall. (Proverbs 16:18)

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    No respect of persons
    .... Pretty much destroys Reformed/Calvinist predestination.

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    No respect of persons
    .... Pretty much destroys Reformed/Calvinist predestination.
    No it does not. Context.

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    What does that scripture mean to you? Does the Father give it to every man then would be the question. So I guess my question would be, does it really matter to you how God does it? To me Jesus words takes authority over anyone elses words. In other words Paul has to line up with Jesus not the other way around.

    Does the fact that God has chosen people bother you? It happened through out scripture. Has God changed? These are questions I would have in looking at it.

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I believe that election/predestination is tied to God's foreknowledge, as we see in Romans 8:29-30, rather than fatalistic determination, as taught in Calvinism.
    I don't think Calvin taught "fatalistic determinism" unless we suppose that all theories of determinism are fatalistic by definition. That is, I don't think Calvin has said that when we look back over the trajectory of someone's life, the arrow was not aimed at a specific target.

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    No respect of persons
    .... Pretty much destroys Reformed/Calvinist predestination.
    Actually, the Reformed position has the best explanation for why God is not treating someone according to rank, status or importance. Arminians, for instance, claim that God is a respecter of those who believe the gospel. Since God is no respecter of persons, Arminianism has flaw.

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Cute
    .

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    No it does not. Context.
    Explanation please?

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Explanation please?
    God is no respecter of person as all had sinned and is damned before Him. We are all the same and that is why God's grace is what it is, undeserved.

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    There is a huge difference between saying that people are saved and then elected, or they are elected and then saved.
    I agree. The former is illogical, like a square circle, while the latter is taught in the Bible.

    If we suppose that God first saves someone, then elects them, how does this work exactly? Election is an act of choice, given more than one plausible alternative. The actual and specific alternative chosen, reveals something about the person making the choice, and this is no less true about God. However, saving someone before choosing them means that the act of salvation was antecedent to God's will. Since the act of salvation precedes God's choice, then a person's salvation preexisted his decision. To choose them after the fact is not a hard choice to make and certainly, it would violate God's character to elect those who weren't saved. So we see this concept has two flaws that defeat it: 1) to choose the saved as opposed to the non-saved is not a real choice because God would never consider electing the non-saved to be a valid alternative, 2) supposing that salvation precedes election leads to the conclusion that salvation was not according to God's will, since salvation is antecedent to his choice.


    If people are elected (chosen) for salvation and then saved, it means that:

    1. God did not want the whole world to be saved.
    2. Christ died only for the elect.
    3. The majority are “elected” for damnation. (One cannot have some elected for salvation and deny that at the same time others are elected for damnation).
    1. God did not want the whole world to be saved.
    Your first conclusion assumes that God has only one desire, or that unlike human beings, he isn't capable of weighing and giving priority to his desires. But why would we presume this about God? Where in the scriptures does it reveal that God is simple in his emotions and uncomplicated in his desires? From the outset, in Genesis chapter 6 we learn that God regretted making man on the earth, but at the same time decided to save a few people and pairs of animals. This reveals that God has complex emotions even while he is single minded in his decisions.
    2. Christ died only for the elect.
    This is the conclusion of Calvinists but not necessarily the right conclusion to draw from the cross of Christ. The Bible indicates that reconciliation was the purpose for the cross of Christ, and applies to all of mankind. Every human being on the planet can be reconciled to God through the blood of Christ if reconciliation is desired. But reconciliation is a two way street and requires not only that God reconciles to man, but that man reconciles to God. Calvinists believe that the cross is the means by which a man is saved, and so logically conclude that the cross was only efficacious for the elect. But contrary to what Calvinists teach, the cross was not intended as the exclusive, and necessary means to salvation. The Biblical view of the cross is that while the cross is a necessary condition of salvation, it isn't an exclusive means of salvation. Reconciliation alone is not enough. Notice how Paul argues the case in Romans.

    Romans 5:
    [I]6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

    Not only are we reconciled to God, we have the forgiveness of sins, and subsequent to that we will be saved from the wrath of God through Jesus Christ. His death on the cross brings us reconciliation with God, and his resurrection to life will be the means by which we are saved from God's wrath.

    3. The majority are “elected” for damnation. (One cannot have some elected for salvation and deny that at the same time others are elected for damnation).
    The Bible uses the term "elect" to indicate the "holy" people. God considered the sons and daughters of Jacob to be his "elect" because he considered them to be a "holy" people, consecrated to serve him. With regard to those whom God is saving, such people are God's "elect" because he considers these folks also to be holy and consecrated to serve his purpose. The damned, by definition then, are not "elect" because they are not considered holy or consecrated for his purposes.

    By this Biblical definition, then, the terms "chosen" and "elect" are not synonymous with the typical connotation of "selected," which indicates when certain people are carefully chosen from a larger number as being the best or most valuable. First of all, the Bible reveals that no one person, other than Jesus Christ himself, is more important or more valuable than any other person. The Declaration of Independence rightly asserts that all men (and women) are created equal. All mankind is made in the image of God. (Genesis) And the Pharisee was wrong to conclude that he was not like other men. (Luke 18)

    The Bible reveals that God proceeds from his purposes rather than from observation or experience. He is not waiting for someone to believe before saving them. His plans to save a person arises from a plan he designed before the creation of the world.

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    God is no respecter of person as all had sinned and is damned before Him. We are all the same and that is why God's grace is what it is, undeserved.
    Thanks, and we all know that, but no matter how you try to explain it away, the behavior of the individual is always in view in these "respecter of persons" passages. You cannot be 'elect' and behave anyway you want to. OSAS is a lie.

    1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
    1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
    1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
    1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
    1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
    1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
    1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
    1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
    1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
    1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
    1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
    Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
    Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
    Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
    Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
    Col 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
    Col 3:19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
    Col 3:20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
    Col 3:21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.
    Col 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
    Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
    Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
    Col 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

    Now what was that you said about context?

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Actually, the Reformed position has the best explanation for why God is not treating someone according to rank, status or importance. Arminians, for instance, claim that God is a respecter of those who believe the gospel. Since God is no respecter of persons, Arminianism has flaw.
    I'm not Arnimian but this argument doesn't fly. Faith is not a work and is the requirement and condition on which salvation rests, and work follows faith. And no, faith is not a gift given to some and not others. The Reformed/Calvinist position has God choosing some and not others just because, which is contrary to everything scripture reveals about God and his judgment and righteousness. Respecter of person passages reveal if faith does not result in works it is not faith in God.

    Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
    Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
    Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
    Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
    Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
    Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
    Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
    Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
    Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

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