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Thread: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

  1. #16

    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
    1. No verse should be taken in isolation to build a doctrine.
    2. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit always agree in all things, and work in concert.
    3. If the Son and the Holy Spirit draw ALL MEN to Christ, it follows that the Father does the same.
    4. So all this verse tells us is that salvation involves the drawing of the Father to the Son. This occurs when the Gospel is preached and the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces sinners.
    5. This verse does NOT teach that God picks some for salvation, and leaves others out.
    6. However, in order to be saved, all men MUST repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

  2. #17
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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    1. No verse should be taken in isolation to build a doctrine.
    2. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit always agree in all things, and work in concert.
    3. If the Son and the Holy Spirit draw ALL MEN to Christ, it follows that the Father does the same.
    4. So all this verse tells us is that salvation involves the drawing of the Father to the Son. This occurs when the Gospel is preached and the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces sinners.
    5. This verse does NOT teach that God picks some for salvation, and leaves others out.
    6. However, in order to be saved, all men MUST repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Salvation happened in the OT too. You already had other scriptures you posted about Calvin beliefs, so I just added words of Jesus from there. I brought up God choosing people in scriptures.... look at Jacob and Esau who was chosen there? Being hated is a pretty strong stand, so it is not out of character for God is what I am saying, He has chosen in the past.

  3. #18
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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I'm not Arnimian but this argument doesn't fly. Faith is not a work and is the requirement and condition on which salvation rests, and work follows faith. And no, faith is not a gift given to some and not others. The Reformed/Calvinist position has God choosing some and not others just because, which is contrary to everything scripture reveals about God and his judgment and righteousness. Respecter of person passages reveal if faith does not result in works it is not faith in God.

    Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
    Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
    Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
    Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
    Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
    Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
    Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
    Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
    Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    Well, you didn't actually address my argument so I am curious what you would say to that. But as to your argument, it really doesn't matter what condition God might choose to save someone, the doctrine that proposes a criteria by which God makes a decision of whom to choose, pictures God as a respecter of persons. Arguing that faith, not works, is a condition whereby God chooses whom to save doesn't change the implication that he is a respecter of persons.

  4. #19
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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Well, you didn't actually address my argument
    Thought I did. What did I miss?


    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    But as to your argument, it really doesn't matter what condition God might choose to save someone, the doctrine that proposes a criteria by which God makes a decision of whom to choose, pictures God as a respecter of persons. Arguing that faith, not works, is a condition whereby God chooses whom to save doesn't change the implication that he is a respecter of persons.
    Not at all. God chose to have a people. Individuals choose whether or not to be a part, not God.
    In the Biblical view the offer is made to all (not a respecter of persons).
    Reformed/Calvinist has God deciding who (respecter of persons).

    Like I said, I'm not Arminian (not biblical), I don't believe God looks through time and chooses based on a choice, which really isn't God choosing at all.

  5. #20
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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Thanks, and we all know that, but no matter how you try to explain it away, the behavior of the individual is always in view in these "respecter of persons" passages. You cannot be 'elect' and behave anyway you want to. OSAS is a lie.

    1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
    1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
    1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
    1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
    1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
    1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
    1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
    1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
    1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
    1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
    1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
    Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
    Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
    Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
    Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
    Col 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
    Col 3:19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
    Col 3:20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
    Col 3:21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.
    Col 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
    Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
    Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
    Col 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

    Now what was that you said about context?
    Scripture is always about judgement when it speak about God not being a respecter of person. Imo you are saying that God is not a respecter of person regarding His election and therefore do not elect people of His own volition, but according to the choice of man. We do not know on what grounds God do elect for Him a people, but He do and because of it they are saved. OSAS is Scriptural not withstanding your opinion on it.

  6. #21

    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I agree. The former is illogical, like a square circle, while the latter is taught in the Bible.
    Since the entire plan of salvation is "illogical" (according to human logic) we can simply disregard logic and stick with Divine logic as expressed in Scripture.

    However, saving someone before choosing them means that the act of salvation was antecedent to God's will.
    Once we are clear that election or choosing is NOT for the purpose of salvation, then there is no such issue. And as already pointed out election and predestination are for GLORIFICATION. Those who are saved shall be glorified, and they have been predestined to be glorified, as well as "holy and blameless" (perfected).

    Where in the scriptures does it reveal that God is simple in his emotions and uncomplicated in his desires?
    We go to the Gospels for the answers, and we go to John 3:14-17 to establish that God is uncomplicated about salvation. So please take another look at the simplicity of the Gospel: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    Did you notice the last clause, and did you give it the consideration it deserves? It is simple, uncomplicated, yet profound.

    Calvinists believe that the cross is the means by which a man is saved, and so logically conclude that the cross was only efficacious for the elect.
    And that is the root of the problem. The cross is efficacious for ALL who repent and believe. They are then elected for glorification.

    The damned, by definition then, are not "elect" because they are not considered holy or consecrated for his purposes.
    Well that is not what Calvinistic or Reformed doctrine teaches. It actually teaches that some are chosen for damnation. Please see my quotation in the OP.

    The Bible reveals that God proceeds from his purposes rather than from observation or experience. He is not waiting for someone to believe before saving them. His plans to save a person arises from a plan he designed before the creation of the world.
    Well that is NOT what the Bible teaches. God compels no one to be saved, so in fact every sinner must repent and believe. That is the only way they can be saved, so in effect God "waits" for sinners to repent and believe, even though He commands all men everywhere to repent. Please note (Rev 3:20):Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

    Do you see Christ forcing His way in, or do you see Him waiting for the door to be opened?

  7. #22
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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Scripture is always about judgement when it speak about God not being a respecter of person. Imo you are saying that God is not a respecter of person regarding His election and therefore do not elect people of His own volition, but according to the choice of man.
    Right because being a part of his chosen is up to the individual. All things work together for good to them that love God, not them that hate him. Blessing to those that love him, visit the iniquity of those that hate him. It's always been this way. Not all Israel is Israel, remember? A true Israelite loves God and neighbor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    We do not know on what grounds God do elect for Him a people
    We do know. Scripture tells us very plainly.

  8. #23
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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Right because being a part of his chosen is up to the individual. All things work together for good to them that love God, not them that hate him. Blessing to those that love him, visit the iniquity of those that hate him. It's always been this way. Not all Israel is Israel, remember? A true Israelite loves God and neighbor.
    This is where you got it wrong. It is not up to the individual.
    Joh 6:44 People cannot come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me; and I will raise them to life on the last day.
    Rom 9:16 So then, everything depends, not on what we humans want or do, but only on God's mercy.
    Rom 11:4 What answer did God give him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not worshiped the false god Baal."
    Rom 11:5 It is the same way now: there is a small number left of those whom God has chosen because of his grace.
    Rom 11:6 His choice is based on his grace, not on what they have done. For if God's choice were based on what people do, then his grace would not be real grace.




    We do know. Scripture tells us very plainly.
    Then please enlighten us so we can examine it.

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    In the Biblical view the offer is made to all (not a respecter of persons).
    Reformed/Calvinist have God deciding who (respecter of persons).
    I need a little more from you in order to see your position that Reformed/Calvinist theology understands God to be a respecter of persons. In other words, the idea of "respect" is absent from Reformed teaching concerning the elect. This was my point earlier. The idea that God might show respect to a human being is predicated on the idea that the quality of this particular individual demands or compels respect. Why do we "respect" people? There are many reasons why WE might give deference to another individual: they are powerful and can hurt us; they are higher in rank; they are acting in the name of the state, i.e. policeman, fireman, councilman, etc.; they are rich and can give us stuff. We find nothing like this in Reformed doctrine concerning how God decides whom to bring into the kingdom of his son. God's decision is not based on the qualities, attributes, status, rank, or power of those whom he decides to save. The only man who we might argue deserves the Father's respect is the son, Jesus Christ, because we ought to give deference to anyone who is as righteous and good as he is.

    Reformed doctrine teaches that God decided whom to save before the foundation of the word, that is, before any particular individual has had an opportunity to manifest his quality.

    Like I said, I'm not Arminian (not biblical), I don't believe God looks through time and chooses based on a choice, which really isn't God choosing at all.
    I agree. This idea that God looks through time to assess whether or not someone will believe the gospel is predicated on the concept of "selection", which necessarily requires that salvation be meritorious. Reformed doctrine would deny that salvation is based on merit, and in fact, it explicitly denies it, saying that salvation is based on grace alone. Grace does not take into consideration the worthiness of God's love. He loves us in spite of the fact that we are not worthy of it.

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    This is where you got it wrong. It is not up to the individual.
    It's certainly not up to a puppet master.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Joh 6:44 People cannot come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me; and I will raise them to life on the last day.
    Do you wanna discuss being drawn or chosen? They are not the same. All were taught but not all learned, and it was up to the individual to learn. I am not arguing all are drawn as Arminians do. That's incorrect.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Rom 9:16 So then, everything depends, not on what we humans want or do, but only on God's mercy.
    Rom 11:4 What answer did God give him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not worshiped the false god Baal."
    Rom 11:5 It is the same way now: there is a small number left of those whom God has chosen because of his grace.
    Rom 11:6 His choice is based on his grace, not on what they have done. For if God's choice were based on what people do, then his grace would not be real grace.
    We've been down this road many times and you know I believe the corporate view. These chapters are about God arbitrarily making salvation for all and doing it the way he wanted to and for whom he wanted to, which is all


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Then please enlighten us so we can examine it.
    His chosen are those who love him and their neighbor, those who do His will. He chooses to bless them, and give them inheritance. Again not all Israel is of Israel. Only those of faith. All others who could have been chose not to through unbelief.

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I need a little more from you in order to see your position that Reformed/Calvinist theology understands God to be a respecter of persons. In other words, the idea of "respect" is absent from Reformed teaching concerning the elect. This was my point earlier. The idea that God might show respect to a human being is predicated on the idea that the quality of this particular individual demands or compels respect. Why do we "respect" people? There are many reasons why WE might give deference to another individual: they are powerful and can hurt us; they are higher in rank; they are acting in the name of the state, i.e. policeman, fireman, councilman, etc.; they are rich and can give us stuff. We find nothing like this in Reformed doctrine concerning how God decides whom to bring into the kingdom of his son. God's decision is not based on the qualities, attributes, status, rank, or power of those whom he decides to save. The only man who we might argue deserves the Father's respect is the son, Jesus Christ, because we ought to give deference to anyone who is as righteous and good as he is.

    Reformed doctrine teaches that God decided whom to save before the foundation of the word, that is, before any particular individual has had an opportunity to manifest his quality.
    Right so God, sticking with this absurd and ridiculous decision method, saves an individual who has no business being saved and rejects an individual who should be, simply because of their God given status before existing. He has shown partiality without reason. So unlike God and so unjust. Romans 9 does not say God did this or does it. It does not.

  12. #27

    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    In the OT, Israel were the elect. Yet Israel had to follow the law. They were not saved automatically. If they turned and followed after false Gods and abandoned the LORD god and his commandments and statues, judgment came on then.

    The OT also writes of a blotting out and a cutting off - even though Israel were the elect.


    Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.


    Ex 32:33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

    (Lev 20:1-3) And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
    Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
    And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    It's certainly not up to a puppet master.
    I agree


    Do you wanna discuss being drawn or chosen? They are not the same. All were taught but not all learned, and it was up to the individual to learn. I am not arguing all are drawn as Arminians do. That's incorrect.
    I don't mind


    We've been down this road many times and you know I believe the corporate view. These chapters are about God arbitrarily making salvation for all and doing it the way he wanted to and for whom he wanted to, which is all
    I know and do not agree with you


    His chosen are those who love him and their neighbor, those who do His will. He chooses to bless them, and give them inheritance. Again not all Israel is of Israel. Only those of faith. All others who could have been chose not to through unbelief.
    Yes we can see who He has chosen by the fruit they have. What you have not explained is why God had chosen them, because you said you know. If you say He chose those that have chosen Him then you are in conflict with Scripture.

    Rom 3:10 As the Scriptures say: "There is no one who is righteous,
    Rom 3:11 no one who is wise or who worships God.
    Rom 3:12 All have turned away from God; they have all gone wrong; no one does what is right, not even one.

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Right so God, sticking with this absurd and ridiculous decision method, saves an individual who has no business being saved and rejects an individual who should be, simply because of their God given status before existing. He has shown partiality without reason. So unlike God and so unjust. Romans 9 does not say God did this or does it. It does not.
    If I may say, I like your concise summary concerning the apparent capriciousness of God, which you believe is a logical implication of the Reformed view. We both agree that there is no randomness with God and so any teaching that implies that God's will is random, capricious, or arbitrary is suspect. But is this actually a fair assessment of the Reformed view? I don't believe it is.

    Due to the fact that mankind was made in the image of God, mankind shares, among many things, his reasoned, rational approach to planning and the execution of plans. But unlike God, mankind does not have the ability to flawlessly and unfailingly execute a plan over thousands of lifetimes. And so, as we would suspect, the salvation of the elect is just as rational as any other plan God put into motion. In other words, supposing that God were to save someone from the foundation of the world, we can be sure that the wicked will be destroyed and the righteous will find life, and no wicked will find life and no righteous will be destroyed.

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    Re: Saved and then elected, or elected and then saved?

    The Great Command says for us to Love God and love people .Jesus said to love our enemies.

    Would God ask us to do something He doesn't ?

    Do those who follow God's commands have more Piety than God Himself ?

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