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Thread: HOW CAN ANY PERSON ENTER THE BODY OF CHRIST ??

  1. #271
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    Re: HOW CAN ANY PERSON ENTER THE BODY OF CHRIST ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Depends on who I'm preaching to. If I'm preaching to a society that's a Monarchy but has not had a King on the throne for say 600 years. And i say to them the Kingdom is Come or Near. If I was them i would understand this to mean a legitimate Hier is Come or Near therefore so is the Kingdom.

    Let's follow yours at the same time, does someone believing the Kingdom is come or near and being baptized (like John baptized) does this mean these people have received Salvation.

    For example Matthew 3:1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2“Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

    Then Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan were going out to him, 6 and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

    “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    1.Did the people who John baptized receive salvation?

    2.If I were to proclaim the same message as John would those people who repented and got baptized with Water be saved?
    Yes... because it is the faith that saves. People were saved during the OT period having NOT received John's baptism. Context... read Hebrews 11 for the contextual help in understanding the entire message of ONE Gospel (salvation's message) all centered on Christ, faith, and grace.
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  2. #272
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    Re: HOW CAN ANY PERSON ENTER THE BODY OF CHRIST ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Yes... because it is the faith that saves.
    Just to be clear your saying the people who John baptized with water obtained salvation even though they had not yet recieved the HS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    People were saved during the OT period having NOT received John's baptism. Context... read Hebrews 11 for the contextual help in understanding the entire message of ONE Gospel (salvation's message) all centered on Christ, faith, and grace.
    Not sure what this has to do with our dicussion, you guys keep trying to go big picture and ignore the passages in Matthew Mark Luke and John that i bring up. You whole argument is based on the writings of Paul who exclusively taught the Gospel of Christ. Paul never went around teaching people the Kingdom of God or Heaven is at hand repent/confess your sins and be baptized in water

    anyway since your refusal to actually address my question or passages instead favoring to try to present Big picture ideas while ignoring the Gospel passages i bring up i don't really see the value in continueing this discussion. The Fact that you guys can't understand this simple point means you will never be able to "understand" what Aristarkos is saying much less refute it.

    So then I suggest you proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom and baptize people with water for repentance(as did John) since you believe these proclamations are the same and both lead to salvation.

    As for me I will proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. 1 Cor 1:23 & 11:26, and preach the gospel of Christ Crucified and Risen for the remission of Sins.

  3. #273

    Re: HOW CAN ANY PERSON ENTER THE BODY OF CHRIST ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    You didn't answer, did the people who received this message obtain Salvation? And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’c 8Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers,d cast out demons.
    This is a semantics issue. I might answer differently, depending on the context. Let's just say that people in the OT era have now been saved. They were not the recipients of Christ's atoning death before that event actually happened, but they have now been saved since that event.

    It is their faith *before that event* that has come to save them. In a very real sense, though, it was their faith *at the time they demonstrated it* that saved them at that time.

    Let me try to explain this difficult semantics issue a little better. It's like saying a person is holding to a life vest, and needs to reach a boat to get saved in a storm. He swims to the boat, thus "saving" himself. But the boat still needs to escort him out of the storm. So in swimming to the boat he "got saved." But the "salvation" really takes place when the boat escorts him to shore.

    It is the same thing with OT salvation. People swim to God, using the Law and deeds of righteousness--all of which were designed to be expressions of *faith.* This saved them--past tense.

    However, the real salvation took place after they got to God, and God then delivered them from the condemnation of sin and death. In other words, OT saints were saved, but their salvation was legally certified at the Cross.

    This is just a semantics issue you are engaging in. The Gospel of faith in the OT era is the same Gospel of the cross in the NT era. One led to the other. One was preliminary to the actual legal certification.

  4. #274
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    Re: HOW CAN ANY PERSON ENTER THE BODY OF CHRIST ??

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is a semantics issue. I might answer differently, depending on the context. Let's just say that people in the OT era have now been saved. They were not the recipients of Christ's atoning death before that event actually happened, but they have now been saved since that event.

    It is their faith *before that event* that has come to save them. In a very real sense, though, it was their faith *at the time they demonstrated it* that saved them at that time.

    Let me try to explain this difficult semantics issue a little better. It's like saying a person is holding to a life vest, and needs to reach a boat to get saved in a storm. He swims to the boat, thus "saving" himself. But the boat still needs to escort him out of the storm. So in swimming to the boat he "got saved." But the "salvation" really takes place when the boat escorts him to shore.

    It is the same thing with OT salvation. People swim to God, using the Law and deeds of righteousness--all of which were designed to be expressions of *faith.* This saved them--past tense.

    However, the real salvation took place after they got to God, and God then delivered them from the condemnation of sin and death. In other words, OT saints were saved, but their salvation was legally certified at the Cross.

    This is just a semantics issue you are engaging in. The Gospel of faith in the OT era is the same Gospel of the cross in the NT era. One led to the other. One was preliminary to the actual legal certification.
    Yea i can agree with all of this. My point once more is about What WE NOW SHOULD "Proclaim" for Salavtion.

    Your claim quite simply is that the Gospel of the Kingdom : Telling people that the Kingdom of God is near and to repent and be baptized is suffiencent for Salvation.

    I'm claiming only the Gospel of Christ(outlined in 1 Corth 15:2-5) can now lead to salavtion.

    But that in the bible are other messages that are cosidered "Good News".

    Once more notice Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    The Gospel (Good News) God told Abraham was that "IN thee shall all nations be Blessed".

    The Gospel (Good News) Jesus told the disciples to preach was "the Kingdom of Heaven is near"

    The Gospel (Good News) We are to Proclaim: Is that Jesus died was buried and resurrected for the remission of Sins.

    Once more these messages to you may all be the same, but we as Christians today are only commanded to proclaim 1 of these and that is the Gospel of Christ. We are not commanded to go proclaim what God told you Abhram or what Jesus told the disciples to proclaim during his earthly ministry. We are to Proclaim Christ Crucified for the remission of sins.

  5. #275

    Re: HOW CAN ANY PERSON ENTER THE BODY OF CHRIST ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Yea i can agree with all of this. My point once more is about What WE NOW SHOULD "Proclaim" for Salavtion.

    Your claim quite simply is that the Gospel of the Kingdom : Telling people that the Kingdom of God is near and to repent and be baptized is suffiencent for Salvation.

    I'm claiming only the Gospel of Christ(outlined in 1 Corth 15:2-5) can now lead to salavtion.

    But that in the bible are other messages that are cosidered "Good News".

    Once more notice Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    The Gospel (Good News) God told Abraham was that "IN thee shall all nations be Blessed".

    The Gospel (Good News) Jesus told the disciples to preach was "the Kingdom of Heaven is near"

    The Gospel (Good News) We are to Proclaim: Is that Jesus died was buried and resurrected for the remission of Sins.

    Once more these messages to you may all be the same, but we as Christians today are only commanded to proclaim 1 of these and that is the Gospel of Christ. We are not commanded to go proclaim what God told you Abhram or what Jesus told the disciples to proclaim during his earthly ministry. We are to Proclaim Christ Crucified for the remission of sins.
    I hear ya. However, this is the same argument I've been having with another fella, who claims there are multi-gospels. My argument to him is that there is the *core Gospel,* and then there is the packaging of that Gospel in different formats.

    I would add to that that there is an OT format and a NT format, but both present the same core Gospel. I call it the "one Gospel." You call it the "Gospel of Christ." Same thing.

    The only difference is, you insist that these different formats constitute "different gospels." Although I understand what you're saying I think that it would be misleading to use language that way. It could lead to the justification of truly different gospels by others when they hear this kind of thing.

    For example, if some hear that there is one gospel for the OT and another gospel for the NT they might try to justify going back under the Law to exercise their "gospel" in that format? That wouldn't be good. And that's why I think Paul made it explicitly clear that there is not "another gospel."

  6. #276
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    Re: HOW CAN ANY PERSON ENTER THE BODY OF CHRIST ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Just to be clear your saying the people who John baptized with water obtained salvation even though they had not yet recieved the HS?
    Yep... same way all those in Hebrews 11 are saved due to their belief.

    Not sure what this has to do with our dicussion, you guys keep trying to go big picture and ignore the passages in Matthew Mark Luke and John that i bring up. You whole argument is based on the writings of Paul who exclusively taught the Gospel of Christ. Paul never went around teaching people the Kingdom of God or Heaven is at hand repent/confess your sins and be baptized in water

    anyway since your refusal to actually address my question or passages instead favoring to try to present Big picture ideas while ignoring the Gospel passages i bring up i don't really see the value in continueing this discussion. The Fact that you guys can't understand this simple point means you will never be able to "understand" what Aristarkos is saying much less refute it.

    So then I suggest you proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom and baptize people with water for repentance(as did John) since you believe these proclamations are the same and both lead to salvation.

    As for me I will proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. 1 Cor 1:23 & 11:26, and preach the gospel of Christ Crucified and Risen for the remission of Sins.
    Ummm, there is only one Gospel message that points to only one salvation made possible (grace) through Christ... faith in God.
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



  7. #277

    Re: HOW CAN ANY PERSON ENTER THE BODY OF CHRIST ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Yea i can agree with all of this. My point once more is about What WE NOW SHOULD "Proclaim" for Salavtion.

    Your claim quite simply is that the Gospel of the Kingdom : Telling people that the Kingdom of God is near and to repent and be baptized is suffiencent for Salvation.
    I'm not claiming that the Gospel of the Kingdom is anything other than the Gospel of Christ. The Gospel of the Kingdom is that Christ has come to earth to offer his life as an atonement for our sin. When Jesus proclaimed the nearness of the Kingdom he simultaneously proclaimed his atoning death. The Gospel of the Kingdom was thus also the Gospel of Christ.

    We don't proclaim the message in the form that it existed in before Christ came because the event that was anticipated has already happened. Christ's death has already happened. We can't look forward to that event any longer. Now, we must look backwards to the event that achieved our salvation.

    When men like Abraham looked forward to the gospel of Christ, they may not have known what Christ's atoning death specifically looked like. But they in faith cast themselves on the mercy of God. And God counted that as looking forward to Christ's atoning death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    Christ(outlined in 1 Corth 15:2-5) can now lead to salavtion.

    But that in the bible are other messages that are cosidered "Good News".

    Once more notice Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    The Gospel (Good News) God told Abraham was that "IN thee shall all nations be Blessed".

    The Gospel (Good News) Jesus told the disciples to preach was "the Kingdom of Heaven is near"
    These earlier "gospels" were the same Gospel. They were not different gospels. They only appeared in different periods of time with respect to the event the gospel proclaimed, which was the atoning death of Christ.

    The gospel proclaimed to Abraham was the same Gospel of Christ. It was the promise of an international membership in God's Kingdom. But it clearly had to look forward to the atoning death of Christ.

    Though Abraham may not have known specifically what this looked like, it was his casting himself on the mercy of God that in the eyes of God equated to "looking forward to the death of Christ." This was the means of fulfilling an international membership in God's Kingdom. It was the basis of Abraham's faith in God's promises.

    The gospel Jesus proclaimed was also the same exact Gospel of Christ, the anticipation of his death for sin. This gospel was proclaimed while Israel was still under the Law of Moses. But it did not mean that the gospel meant continuance under the Law of Moses.

    Rather, this message was that Jesus would have to die for sin, thus winning release from the bondage of the Law. Again, it was looking forward to an international membership in God's Kingdom--something that could only take place by Christ's atoning death.

    Today, we have to look back to Christ's death, and so must tailor our message to our current vantage point in time. We cannot proclaim that the event is yet to come, since it has already happened. But it is the *same message* and must be formatted in accordance with our own position with respect to Christ's atoning death. It has already happened, and so our preaching of the same exact gospel must look back to that event.

    The core of the Gospel of Christ will always be his atoning death for sin. Proclaiming it before it happened, or proclaiming it after it has happened, does not change the core Gospel, and does not make it two or more gospels. They all speak of the same event--the death of Christ for sin.

    Reference to what Christ's atoning death actually accomplished doesn't change the Gospel either. The promise to Abraham that there would be an international body of believers did not change the gospel, but was instead the thing that the gospel accomplished.

    Furthermore, Jesus proclaimed the same exact thing, that both Israel and the nations would hear the message of eternal life. This, again, was only enabled by Christ's death for sin. It is a single Gospel, the Gospel of Christ!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    The Gospel (Good News) We are to Proclaim: Is that Jesus died was buried and resurrected for the remission of Sins.

    Once more these messages to you may all be the same, but we as Christians today are only commanded to proclaim 1 of these and that is the Gospel of Christ. We are not commanded to go proclaim what God told you Abhram or what Jesus told the disciples to proclaim during his earthly ministry. We are to Proclaim Christ Crucified for the remission of sins.

  8. #278
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    Re: HOW CAN ANY PERSON ENTER THE BODY OF CHRIST ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Once more its about Context Paul is telling the Galatians that there is only one gospel concerning <<Christ>> not that there is only 1 Gospel and all other gospels are heresy. Once more in the Context of the Story the Jews wanted the gentiles to be circumcised in accordance with the law. Indeed this was a Different Gospel then what Paul was teaching would you not agree? I mean the book of Acts outlines the meeting in Jerusalem on this very issue Acts 15.
    I'm speaking of the Gospel in relation to salvation. I always have been speaking about the Gospel in relation to salvation. Also, Aristarkos' has been speaking of the Gospel's in relation to that, hence the discussion. He says these other gospels are pertinent and relevant and associated to salvation. If you doubt this, scroll back through and read. It's confusing to people who may be scrolling through from all over planet earth. There is ONE GOSPEL UNTO SALVATION. THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST. The Gospel of the kingdom , the gospel of God...are one and the same. the good news is Jesus. In the O.T. He was the coming Messiah, in the New Testament , He is the Perfect Sacrifice...all the same.

    MATHEW 3 tells us..

    In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea and saying "Repent for the kingdom of heaven has come near." ( obviously he was speaking of the Messiah )

    Mark 1 /15 tells us

    " The time has come" He said. "The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the Good News".... ( the words of our Lord )

    Now tell me how the gospel of kingdom of heaven and the gospel of the kingdom of God , are not the message of Jesus Christ ? They are absolutely received by the same message. We could go much deeper and I will if you like , but is it really necessary ? THE good news has always been Christ.

    Last night our small group teacher put it like this .. Genesis ch. 1-2 are about creation. 3 is about the fall...the rest of scripture is about the provision of God to redeem us through the Good News of Jesus Christ.

  9. #279
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    Re: HOW CAN ANY PERSON ENTER THE BODY OF CHRIST ??

    Once more these messages to you may all be the same, but we as Christians today are only commanded to proclaim 1 of these and that is the Gospel of Christ. We are not commanded to go proclaim what God told you Abhram or what Jesus told the disciples to proclaim during his earthly ministry. We are to Proclaim Christ Crucified for the remission of sins.
    They are all part of the story. Part of the Good News . But one need only repent and believe in the Lord Jesus to be saved. Why is this so complicated for intellects to grasp ? Go as deep , or as shallow as the Holy Spirit directs. It's all the same good news.

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    Re: HOW CAN ANY PERSON ENTER THE BODY OF CHRIST ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Why is this so complicated for intellects to grasp ? .
    Because God doesn't care how intellectual someone is. God is seeking relationship, not pride.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  11. #281

    Re: HOW CAN ANY PERSON ENTER THE BODY OF CHRIST ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Where does Paul say the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Christ are the same?
    Paul was familiar with Jesus' proclamation of the Gospel of the Kingdom. And he was familiar with his own account of the Gospel. And he in light of this still proclaimed there was not "another gospel." Draw your own conclusion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    I'm not really interesting in semantics at this point. My question is simple do you believe me telling people that the Kingdom of God is near and that they should be batized with water for repentance is suffienct for them to recieve Salvation?
    As I said, the message was different before and after the cross, but the gospel has always been about the cross. Salvation is based on belief in the cross, in Christ's atoning death. Water baptism is purely a public display of our Christian conversion. In the OT era, under the Law, it was a public display of repentance and a return to the Law.

    However, everything done under the Law, with respect to the Gospel, was focused on the need for Christ's death for sin--his atoning death. That is the gospel--not the paraphernalia associated with the time preceding that event.

  12. #282

    Re: HOW CAN ANY PERSON ENTER THE BODY OF CHRIST ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    You didn't answer, did the people who received this message obtain Salvation? And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’c 8Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers,d cast out demons.
    This was a conglomeration of "signs" bearing witness to the efficacy of the Gospel. And the Gospel was Christ's atoning death for sin.

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