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Thread: The cycles of the 24th chapter of Matthew

  1. #136
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    Re: The cycles of the 24th chapter of Matthew

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    By claiming that the GT started and ended in 1948, you limit it to a Jewish experience and therefore, deny its worldwide application. This view, unfortunately, is a narrow-minded interpretation of the GT.
    Well, I have never had another Christian call me "narrow-minded" before. But maybe I deserve it.

    In fact, I am rethinking my view of the GT, so perhaps you can help. For the moment, let's forget about the GT and let me ask you a question based on Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse. Consider the following passage and work with me here. I value your opinion.

    Luke 21:
    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    I have highlighted some words in bold in order to bring our focus on a couple of observations. And part of my question involves pretending that Luke is NOT talking about the GT here in the paragraph above. Luke calls this "days of vengeance" and so, instead of calling this the GT, let's go with Luke's wording. Bear with me.

    Days of Vengeance:

    A. Location
    1. Jerusalem
    2. Judea


    B. Intended aim
    1. great distress upon the land
    2. wrath to this people


    Question:
    Do you see a problem with the following statement.

    The Days of Vengeance started in 70AD when Titus' armies surrounded Jerusalem and ended when Israel was back in her land and officially a nation again in 1948?

    What about that?

  2. #137
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    Re: The cycles of the 24th chapter of Matthew

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Of Course he was, Paul wrote much of the NT to believe he was quoting himself is illogical and we know he wasn't one of the 12 who learned directly from Jesus.
    This unsubstantiated claim that Paul was quoting OT trumps also falls into the same "assumption" you have accused others of making Again, the fact that Paul was not among the 12 disciples is irrelevant as he confirmed that he neither learnt from man nor was he taught but by divine revelation (Gal 1:12). So when he spoke about the *last trump* years before Jesus told John about the seven end-time trumpet calls, I have no reason to believe he wasn't referring to the same. I challenge those who claim the OT trumpet calls are the same as those in Revelation by asking them to show similarities in what the OT and Revelation trumps stand for?

    I don't understand this OT NT divide your trying to make here, Paul directly quotes the OT in this very verse so idk how you can say the OT trumpets stand for one thing and the NT another if you don't learn about the trumpets in Hebrew culture (mainly found in the OT) how can you understand Pauls references to them in the NT?
    I am delighted to learn that we are not too different after all despite your claim to ignore what is not explicitly stated in scripture. You have nothing whatsoever to prove that Paul was referring to OT trumpets and that makes your claim an assumption.

    Before anyone quotes me out of context, I must clarify my position. Trumpets are intrinsically linked to Jewish culture and worship. They herald different things; from feasts and celebrations to war and judgment. However, in Revelation, we are told of a specific number of trumpets and each stand for something different. What I refuse to accept (unlike some Christians here) is that for example, the OT trump calls are the same as those in Revelation.

    I am not making any assumption here or introducing a new doctrine. I'm simply interpreting scriptures that are plain as day - the seven trumps of Revelation speak for themselves. And further, I reject the claim that the "last trump" mentioned by Paul refers to some obscure trump unstated in scripture.

    Me either, but i believe people should challenge their assumptions constantly. The 7th trumpet can be the same as the last trumpet but this should be proven rather then assumed.

    I know you don't like links. But i want to add this one notice the Chart that Compares the trumpets look at all the differnces brother, this kind of stuff to me just doesn't imply sameness https://www.gotquestions.org/last-trumpet.html
    I read the exegesis in the link you provided and enjoyed it very much. Thanks for sharing.

    Incidentally, that link is one of the few whose opinions I trust. And true to their honesty and objectivity, in the end, the author didn't attempt to force his opinion on the reader. He simply presented the facts according to his study and understanding and allowed the reader to draw their own conclusions.

    Honestly, I don't have all the answers, like you, the seventh trump may or may not be the last. But in the meantime, I'll hold onto the belief that it is until convinced otherwise.

  3. #138
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    Re: The cycles of the 24th chapter of Matthew

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    I have never argued that the Seventh Trump was the "Last Trump" because I am pre-tribulation so that would never fit my belief pattern. Now I was studying about the "Last Trump" maybe being a part of Paul speaking in general terms about the Games that happened in Corinth, whereas he spoke of Running, Shadowing Boxing, Jumping Events, etc. etc. and the Games were always Started and Ended with the Sounding of a Trumpet, thus the LAST TRUMPET might be Paul telling the Corinthians that they need to wait (until the end) just like the LAST TRUMPET of the Games that were in Corinth, the Second most important games of the Panhellenic Games after the Olympics. They were called the Isthmian Games and were held every 2 years instead of every 4 years.

    It had nothing to do with the LAST TRUMP being the Seventh Trump of Revelation because it can not be that, nor could I ever argue that position.

    The LAST TRUMP has nothing to do with a Trumpet of Revelation. Since Studying the Seven Feasts of Leviticus I am pretty sure Paul is speaking about the LAST TRUMP which ENDS the Harvest or Church Age. He weaves in a lot of the Feasts throughout his Epistles, I can study it and show how he does it, to date I haven't made that effort. But the Feast Of Trumpets ends the Harvest/Pentecost and we are in the Pentecost/Church Age at this very moment.
    OK, I thought you had written earlier that the 7th Trumpet is also the Last Trump. Perhaps I was mistaken. Please read this diligently and tell me if it is not consistent with the view that both the seventh and the last trumps are synonymous?

    Paul unquestionably stated that the rapture would be immediately preceded by the resurrection of the dead and that it would transpire at the "last trumpet" (1 Th 4:15-17).

    1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    I believe this "last trumpet" is the "7th trumpet" when God "rewards the servant the prophets". John said that Jesus will reward at His coming

    Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshipped God, 17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

    And to Israel he says:

    Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD shall come with a strong hand, And His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him.

    Many people believe that the last trumpet is not the same as the "7th trumpet". Logically this would then require two "last" trumpets but adherent to this view do not believe there is a correlation between the trumpet judgments of Revelation and the mystery spoken of in 1 Cor 15.

    I would like to demonstrate that they are indeed one and the same below.

    The "last trumpet" unquestionably includes a "resurrection from the dead". All one needs to do to show that the "last trumpet" is the same as the "7th trumpet" is to prove that the "7th Trumpet" also includes "the resurrection of the dead". If BOTH the "last trumpet" and "7th trumpet" include the "resurrection of the dead", then to make them separate events is completely arbitrary and based upon sloppy hermeneutics.

    John declared that the events surrounding the "sounding of the seventh angel" (i.e. Seventh Trumpet") were "declared by the servants, the prophets". This means that the 7th trumpet must have been announced in the Old Testament by more than one prophetic writer.

    Rev 10:7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

    Below are the ONLY Old Testament verses regarding a "trumpet" in connection with eschatological events.

    Psa 47:2 For the LORD Most High is awesome; He is a great King over all the earth. 3 He will subdue the peoples under us, And the nations under our feet. 4 He will choose our inheritance for us, The excellency of Jacob whom He loves. Selah 5 God has gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet. 6 Sing praises to God, sing praises! Sing praises to our King, sing praises! 7 For God is the King of all the earth; Sing praises with understanding. 8 God reigns over the nations; God sits on His holy throne. 9 The princes of the people have gathered together, The people of the God of Abraham. For the shields of the earth belong to God; He is greatly exalted.

    Isa 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day That the LORD will thresh, From the channel of the River to the Brook of Egypt; And you will be gathered one by one, O you children of Israel. 13 So it shall be in that day: The great trumpet will be blown; They will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria, And, they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt, And shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

    Zech 9:14 Then the LORD will be seen over them, And His arrow will go forth like lightning. The Lord GOD will blow the trumpet, And go with whirlwinds from the south. 15 The LORD of hosts will defend them; They shall devour and subdue with sling stones. They shall drink and roar as if with wine; They shall be filled with blood like basins, Like the corners of the altar. 16 The LORD their God will save them in that day, As the flock of His people. For they shall be like the jewels of a crown, Lifted like a banner over His land— 17 For how great is its goodness And how great its beauty! Grain shall make the young men thrive, And new wine the young women.

    Notice that in Isaiah 27, the prophet calls it the "Great Trumpet". Jesus, quoting the LXX, called the final trumpet at His POST Tribulation coming on the Clouds the "Great Trumpet".

    Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from [fn]the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

    Next, notice that in the OT "trumpet" verses, it is almost always connected to the Saints being "returned to the land" that was "promised to the Patriarchs".

    However, Ezekiel 37 clearly shows that the return of the saints to the land of Israel for a permanent inheritance in the land promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob only happens at the "Resurrection of the dead".

    Eze 37:12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 "Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.' " ... 25 "Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.

    Therefore, if the "seventh trumpet" was announced by the prophets, and every mention of the end time "trumpet" in the OT is linked to the "return to the land promised to Abraham", then Ezekiel's Connecting the "Resurrection" and the "return to the land" demands that the "last trumpet" also includes the "resurrection of the dead". Therefore, BOTH the "7th trumpet" and "last trumpet" share the SAME EVENT and should be seen as the same. If someone wishes to separate them, then they are in a pickle because scriptures demand they share the EXACT SAME details.

    In conclusion:

    - Paul said the resurrection happens at the rapture and at the last trumpet
    - The 7th Trumpet was recorded by the OT Prophets according to. Rev 10:7
    - The only OT verses about an eschatological "trumpet" are connected with the return to the land.
    - Ezekiel 37 says the "return to the land" happens at the "resurrection"
    - Since Paul said the "rapture" includes a "resurrection", then the "last trumpet" must also be the "7th - trumpet" because the prophets spoke of the *Great Trumpet* the precedes the resurrection.
    - To argue that they are not the same would consequently leave no OT verses about the 7th trumpet contrary to John's testimony that it was "spoken of by the prophets".

  4. #139
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    Re: The cycles of the 24th chapter of Matthew

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    This unsubstantiated claim that Paul was quoting OT trumps also falls into the same "assumption" you have accused others of making
    I have no problem with people making assumpting as I stated my only problem is when people build doctrine on assumptions(with nothing to back it).

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Again, the fact that Paul was not among the 12 disciples is irrelevant as he confirmed that he neither learned from man nor was he taught but by divine revelation (Gal 1:12). So when he spoke about the *last trump* years before Jesus told John about the seven end-time trumpet calls, I have no reason to believe he wasn't referring to the same.
    Once more sameness should not be assumed but proven



    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I challenge those who claim the OT trumpet calls are the same as those in Revelation by asking them to show similarities in what the OT and Revelation trumps stand for?
    I have yet to see anyone claim this.



    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I am delighted to learn that we are not too different after all despite your claim to ignore what is not explicitly stated in scripture. You have nothing whatsoever to prove that Paul was referring to OT trumpets and that makes your claim an assumption.
    What doctrine do you see me building on this "Assumption" clearly the Last trump had to be in reference to something Pauls audience understood. If you believe this is devoid of any OT backing then that's your own personal belief



    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Before anyone quotes me out of context, I must clarify my position. Trumpets are intrinsically linked to Jewish culture and worship. They herald different things; from feasts and celebrations to war and judgment.
    Exactly so we know what *Paul* was drawing on

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    However, in Revelation, we are told of a specific number of trumpets and each stand for something different. What I refuse to accept (unlike some Christians here) is that for example, the OT trump calls are the same as those in Revelation.
    I still have not yet seen anyone proclaim this, once more this leap only works if we are under the same assumption you operate under. Otherwise, me speaking about the Writing of Paul (and his use of Trumpets) has no bearing on Revelation and its use of trumpets. John wrote his revelation independent of Pauls writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I am not making any assumption here or introducing a new doctrine. I'm simply interpreting scriptures that are plain as day - the seven trumps of Revelation speak for themselves.
    Correct.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    And further, I reject the claim that the "last trump" mentioned by Paul refers to some obscure trump unstated in scripture.
    Same here because clearly when Paul mentions the "Last Trump" Revelation was not even written.



    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I read the exegesis in the link you provided and enjoyed it very much. Thanks for sharing.

    Incidentally, that link is one of the few whose opinions I trust. And true to their honesty and objectivity, in the end, the author didn't attempt to force his opinion on the reader. He simply presented the facts according to his study and understanding and allowed the reader to draw their own conclusions.

    Honestly, I don't have all the answers, like you, the seventh trump may or may not be the last. But in the meantime, I'll hold onto the belief that it is until convinced otherwise.
    I enjoy that also, i just like to be educated on all sides i believe this is indeed valuable.

  5. #140
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    Re: The cycles of the 24th chapter of Matthew

    Sorry brother but i'm very confused, in your post to me you stated this

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    However, in Revelation, we are told of a specific number of trumpets and each stand for something different. What I refuse to accept (unlike some Christians here) is that for example, the OT trump calls are the same as those in Revelation.
    But your whole argument below is clearly you using OT trumps and claiming those are the same as the 7th one in Revelation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post

    Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshipped God, 17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

    And to Israel he says:

    Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD shall come with a strong hand, And His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him.

    Many people believe that the last trumpet is not the same as the "7th trumpet". Logically this would then require two "last" trumpets but adherent to this view do not believe there is a correlation between the trumpet judgments of Revelation and the mystery spoken of in 1 Cor 15.

    I would like to demonstrate that they are indeed one and the same below.

    The "last trumpet" unquestionably includes a "resurrection from the dead". All one needs to do to show that the "last trumpet" is the same as the "7th trumpet" is to prove that the "7th Trumpet" also includes "the resurrection of the dead". If BOTH the "last trumpet" and "7th trumpet" include the "resurrection of the dead", then to make them separate events is completely arbitrary and based upon sloppy hermeneutics.

    John declared that the events surrounding the "sounding of the seventh angel" (i.e. Seventh Trumpet") were "declared by the servants, the prophets". This means that the 7th trumpet must have been announced in the Old Testament by more than one prophetic writer.

    Rev 10:7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

    Below are the ONLY Old Testament verses regarding a "trumpet" in connection with eschatological events.

    Psa 47:2 For the LORD Most High is awesome; He is a great King over all the earth. 3 He will subdue the peoples under us, And the nations under our feet. 4 He will choose our inheritance for us, The excellency of Jacob whom He loves. Selah 5 God has gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet. 6 Sing praises to God, sing praises! Sing praises to our King, sing praises! 7 For God is the King of all the earth; Sing praises with understanding. 8 God reigns over the nations; God sits on His holy throne. 9 The princes of the people have gathered together, The people of the God of Abraham. For the shields of the earth belong to God; He is greatly exalted.

    Isa 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day That the LORD will thresh, From the channel of the River to the Brook of Egypt; And you will be gathered one by one, O you children of Israel. 13 So it shall be in that day: The great trumpet will be blown; They will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria, And, they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt, And shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

    Zech 9:14 Then the LORD will be seen over them, And His arrow will go forth like lightning. The Lord GOD will blow the trumpet, And go with whirlwinds from the south. 15 The LORD of hosts will defend them; They shall devour and subdue with sling stones. They shall drink and roar as if with wine; They shall be filled with blood like basins, Like the corners of the altar. 16 The LORD their God will save them in that day, As the flock of His people. For they shall be like the jewels of a crown, Lifted like a banner over His land— 17 For how great is its goodness And how great its beauty! Grain shall make the young men thrive, And new wine the young women.

    Notice that in Isaiah 27, the prophet calls it the "Great Trumpet". Jesus, quoting the LXX, called the final trumpet at His POST Tribulation coming on the Clouds the "Great Trumpet".

    Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from [fn]the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

    Next, notice that in the OT "trumpet" verses, it is almost always connected to the Saints being "returned to the land" that was "promised to the Patriarchs".

    However, Ezekiel 37 clearly shows that the return of the saints to the land of Israel for a permanent inheritance in the land promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob only happens at the "Resurrection of the dead".

    Eze 37:12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 "Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.' " ... 25 "Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.

    Therefore, if the "seventh trumpet" was announced by the prophets, and every mention of the end time "trumpet" in the OT is linked to the "return to the land promised to Abraham", then Ezekiel's Connecting the "Resurrection" and the "return to the land" demands that the "last trumpet" also includes the "resurrection of the dead". Therefore, BOTH the "7th trumpet" and "last trumpet" share the SAME EVENT and should be seen as the same. If someone wishes to separate them, then they are in a pickle because scriptures demand they share the EXACT SAME details.

    In conclusion:

    - Paul said the resurrection happens at the rapture and at the last trumpet
    - The 7th Trumpet was recorded by the OT Prophets according to. Rev 10:7
    - The only OT verses about an eschatological "trumpet" are connected with the return to the land.
    - Ezekiel 37 says the "return to the land" happens at the "resurrection"
    - Since Paul said the "rapture" includes a "resurrection", then the "last trumpet" must also be the "7th - trumpet" because the prophets spoke of the *Great Trumpet* the precedes the resurrection.
    - To argue that they are not the same would consequently leave no OT verses about the 7th trumpet contrary to John's testimony that it was "spoken of by the prophets".

  6. #141
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    Re: The cycles of the 24th chapter of Matthew

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Well, I have never had another Christian call me "narrow-minded" before. But maybe I deserve it.
    In fact, I am rethinking my view of the GT, so perhaps you can help. For the moment, let's forget about the GT and let me ask you a question based on Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse. Consider the following passage and work with me here. I value your opinion.

    Luke 21:
    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    I have highlighted some words in bold in order to bring our focus on a couple of observations. And part of my question involves pretending that Luke is NOT talking about the GT here in the paragraph above. Luke calls this "days of vengeance" and so, instead of calling this the GT, let's go with Luke's wording. Bear with me.

    Days of Vengeance:

    A. Location
    Jerusalem
    Judea
    B. Intended aim
    great distress upon the land
    wrath to this people
    Question:
    Do you see a problem with the following statement?

    The Days of Vengeance started in 70AD when Titus' armies surrounded Jerusalem and ended when Israel was back in her land and officially a nation again in 1948?

    What about that?
    For a start, kindly accept my unreserved apologies. Nobody least of you deserves that. You are not narrow-minded even if I disagree with your view on a topic. In 2 Cor 2:2 Paul said: "If I make you sorry, who is he then that makes me glad, but the same whom I have made sad". You are among those I follow on this Forum because they always have something worthwhile to say and I learn from them. Therefore, if I offend you, my joy in on this Board will not be full. But sometimes we get caught up with the vehemence of our passion as we seek to unravel the hidden secrets of the scriptures. I do hope you'll accept my apologies? It is heartfelt

    Now, to address your query I would say that the diverse perspectives in the Olivet Discourse have led to a myriad of interpretations that are sometimes a clear departure from Christ' expressed statement. Most prophecies (Olivet Discourse) included contain a broad range of events; some are related, others are not and they often have hundreds or thousands of years in time-gap between them.

    The disciples asked Jesus a straightforward question:

    Matt 24:1 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, a Tell us, when shall these things be? b and what shall be the sign of thy coming, c and of the end of the world?

    One would have expected Jesus to also answer them directly, but we know that with God, nothing is ever straightforward. Daniel went on 21 days fast to remind God that according to his promise through Jeremiah, that their captivity should be for 70 years. For an answer, he got more than he bargained for! The same is true of the disciples on that fateful day on the mount.

    My point here is that Christ's answer to the disciples' questions goes beyond the Jewish experience. It encompasses the "saints" in this context, the international church which Jew and Gentile belongs. But the problem comes when we try to tabulate the chronological order of the events mentioned in the Olivet Discourse. Here many lose sight of the subtle but clear inclusion of the church in the eschatological rendition.

    Although Jesus started with the near future Jewish experience, he deftly moved the course of his narrative beyond the Jewish experience. Unfortunately, by failing to recognize this dexterous departure and remaining in situ with the Jews, many err and this leads to their only partially understanding the Olivet Discourse.

    Ever wondered why only Luke, divided his account of the discourse into two distinct segments, ie chapter 17 and 21? I dare to speculate that he wanted to highlight without ambiguity, the judgment and destruction of the Jews and their beloved temple in 70 AD, in contrast to the eschatological events that form the majority of what Jesus said. It is disappointing (in my view) that he (Luke) ended up leaving his reader more confused than ever because he failed to achieve his objective. Note that I am not questioning the veracity or infallibility of his accounts - just his presentation thereof.

    So, because of my distrust of his presentation, I prefer Matthew's account and if you will permit me, I'll answer from the Book of Matthew.

    In Matthew's account, the subtle and skilful departure that includes the international church started from:

    Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    By 70 AD, the Gospel has not been preached to all the world, and therefore the *end* did not come and the GT is linked to the *end*. Remember that ALL prophetical narratives include a forward and backward explanation of events? It is the misconceived opinion that 'B' automatically comes after 'A' that causes a lot of misinterpretation. For example, v-14 above is undoubtedly end-time, yet v-15-20 goes on to describe events that not only fit into the 70 AD events but can also fit into the end-time Israel's flight into the desert!

    In my view, what separates the GT from any of the exclusive Jewish experiences (I have had a zillion discussions on this topic with my good friend, Randy) is this:

    Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    Matt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.


    I am aware that many have their own interpretation of *shortened* and when it occurs, but I will focus on my own opinion here.

    - the GT will be unprecedented with nothing to compare it with since the world began!
    - to preserve life, especially the *elect* (all Jew and Gentile that call on the name of Jesus) it shall be shortened.

    For clarity, let's compare the same text with Daniel:

    Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    - Daniel writing from an OT Jewish viewpoint used "NATION" which can be rightly interpreted as Israel.
    - But notice that Jesus corrects this in the Olivet Discourse by using the word "the world"?
    - By changing the word nation to the world, Jesus leaves no one in doubt that the GT is not limited to the Jews as erroneously believed.
    - Notice also that prophet Daniel said, "and thy people [Israel] shall be delivered, EVERY ONE that shall be found written in the Book of Life".
    - Even though Daniel didn't know it at the time, by "everyone" he was referring to ALL Jew and Gentile saved.
    - The book of Life as we know contains BOTH Jew and Gentile SAINTS.

    So in my view, the GT is not a protracted event that spanned over 1900 years (70 AD-1948) and limited to the Jews. It is a future event that will have worldwide ramifications.

  7. #142
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    Re: The cycles of the 24th chapter of Matthew

    Originally Posted by Trivalee

    OK, I thought you had written earlier that the 7th Trumpet is also the Last Trump. Perhaps I was mistaken. Please read this diligently and tell me if it is not consistent with the view that both the seventh and the last trumps are synonymous?

    Paul unquestionably stated that the rapture would be immediately preceded by the resurrection of the dead and that it would transpire at the "last trumpet" (1 Th 4:15-17).

    1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    I believe this "last trumpet" is the "7th trumpet" when God "rewards the servant the prophets". John said that Jesus will reward at His coming
    You do Realize Matthew 24:29-31 happens after the Seventh Trump right? Because it plainly says Jesus Returns IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation, and what happens then? Another "TRUMP SOUNDS" watch this.

    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    This right here discounts the whole notion that the Seventh Trump is the LAST TRUMP that Paul is speaking about. Paul was basically saying it the Last Calling to come home because if you read carefully it is strongly suggested that the "TRUMPET" is just Jesus voice calling us home.

    Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

    So this "TRUMPET" is none other than Jesus' VOICE !!

    Also in Revelation 4:4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

    Again, Jesus is said to sound like a Trumpet. I suggest the SHOUT of Jesus has something to do with Resurrections to wit:

    In John 11, Jesus stands outside the tomb of Lazarus and shouts loudly, “Lazarus, come out!” His friend soon emerges from the grave after being dead nearly four days.

    In Matt. 27:50, just before dying, Jesus shouts with a loud voice and then gives up His spirit. The very next verses record, “Suddenly, the curtain of the sanctuary was split in two from top to bottom; the earth quaked and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened and many bodies of the saints who had gone to their rest were raised. And they came out of the tombs after His resurrection, entered the holy city, and appeared to many” (vv. 51-53).

    And, of course, Paul’s teaching about the future resurrection of the saints in 1 Thess. 4:13-18 features Jesus descending from heaven with a shout, resulting in the resurrection of believers whose bodies rest in the graves.

    I believe the TRUMPET is Jesus calling us home Travalee, I honestly do, IMHO, it has nothing to do with the Rev. TRUMPETS.

  8. #143
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    Re: The cycles of the 24th chapter of Matthew

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Sorry brother but i'm very confused, in your post to me you stated this. But your whole argument below is clearly you using OT trumps and claiming those are the same as the 7th one in Revelation.
    Please ignore my previous post. Revelation 10:7 tipped my view.

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    Re: The cycles of the 24th chapter of Matthew

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    In fact, I am rethinking my view of the GT, so perhaps you can help. For the moment, let's forget about the GT and let me ask you a question based on Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse. Consider the following passage and work with me here. I value your opinion.

    Luke 21:
    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    I have highlighted some words in bold in order to bring our focus on a couple of observations. And part of my question involves pretending that Luke is NOT talking about the GT here in the paragraph above. Luke calls this "days of vengeance" and so, instead of calling this the GT, let's go with Luke's wording. Bear with me.

    Days of Vengeance:

    A. Location
    1. Jerusalem
    2. Judea


    B. Intended aim
    1. great distress upon the land
    2. wrath to this people
    I Think this makes complete sense But we do agree as for the premise that we are not talking about the GT.


    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Question:
    Do you see a problem with the following statement?

    The Days of Vengeance started in 70AD when Titus' armies surrounded Jerusalem and ended when Israel was back in her land and officially a nation again in 1948?
    Clearly, yes I see a problem

    The Days of Vengeance ended after the city was destroyed and they were carried away into many nations. This was a fulfilment of the prophies outlined in Daniel 9:26

    The time of the Gentiles also clearly did not end in 1948 since "Israel" doesn't control Jerusalem.

    So how does this connect to the GT for you?

  10. #145
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    Re: The cycles of the 24th chapter of Matthew

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Please ignore my previous post. Revelation 10:7 tipped my view.
    Would you agree with a Connection between Rev 10:7 and Daniel 12:7?

  11. #146

    Re: The cycles of the 24th chapter of Matthew

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Because the times of troubles Jesus is speaking of is not correlated with Gods Wrath. They are correlated with the world coming against Israel, besting them with difficult options all the way around. We have the 69 Weeks that stopped when Jesus was cutoff, remember, the 70 weeks are designed to bring Israel back to God. We have One Week remaining in which Israel must repent/turn to God before that week ends. In Zechariah 12 we see they are the stumbling block. This Anti-Christ will force a Peace/Security Agreement upon Israel, he might use trade as a threat, or threaten them. The point being their "Troubles" do not start with Gods Wrath, they start with the whole world pressuring them to make this Peace/Security Agreement (Covenant). These pressures build, and Israel repents before the Abomination of Desolation even happens. Now I am not saying that after the Abomination of Desolation period will not be the absolute WORST OF TIMES, they will be because 2/3 of all Jews will be killed, but I am saying the whole seven year period is Jacobs Troubles, the final week of their punishment, designed to bring them unto repentance.

    Jesus opens the Seals, he allows the Anti-Christ to come forth, its punishment/judgment upon an evil world, who chose to worship mankind/demonic ways over God, so God will give them their hearts desire, He raptures the Church before the Seven Year Period, leaving behind a world without any Godly people besides those who repent after the Rapture, so we have a world full of weirdos. They wanted nothing to do with God, now God will leave them to their hearts desire, a world ruled by Satan and his minions, without God restraining them in any way. This is the Day of the Lord, it is Gods Wrath, it starts with the very First Seal. Jesus allows the Anti-Christ to go forth and Conquer. Once he Conquers Jerusalem he becomes the BEAST. The point is, Israel will go through 7 Years of Troubles, not just 3.5 Years of Gods Wrath. They will be forced into an Agreement, this leader will probably antagonize them like Obama did, Israel is going to feel all alone, many Jews will understand that the Billion or so deaths (at the Rapture) was really just Christians being Raptured, thus Jesus might be their Messiah many think, then Elijah and another Witness is sent to preach Jesus Christ Crucified unto all Israel, and Israel Repents and turns unto God, as a Nation, not every Jew.

    Then when the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem, those that have given their Hearts to Jesus heed his warning in Matthew to flee unto the Wilderness where God will protect them. Many will not flee there, and many live in other countries and probably waited too late. So 2/3 of the Jews will be killed according to Zechariah, and 1/3 will be saved, thus ALL ISRAEL (As a Nation) will be SAVED. Thus Israel is protected in the Wilderness by God, but many Jews still living will be hunted down and killed. Thus we still have Jacobs Troubles going on for Seven Full Years. But the Day of the Lord/Gods Wrath is not the same thing as Jacobs Troubles although the do overlap, Jacobs Troubles is a WHOLE WEEK, or Seven Years. Gods Wrath is a 3.5 Year Period of time. God warns Israel to come out of her in Rev. 18 so she will not partake in THEIR PLAGUES. So Gods Wrath is designed for BABYLON/WORLD GOVERNANCE/People who chose this world over Gods ways, not for Israel, but of course some Jews chose this world over God also.

    My point is that the Tribulation of Israel, is not the Wrath of God on Babylon/World. Its two different things.
    We agree that there will be a 70th week. We disagree on the terminology. I just call this the 70th week of Daniel. It is hard to say how much tribulation or troubles occur during the first 3.5 years. Jews will be in their land and worshiping in their temple in Jerusalem. I am ok with calling the first 3.5 years a time of pseudo-peace.

    The AoD does start the period of great tribulation, thus the great tribulation is 3.5 years. The great tribulation does spread from Israel to the rest of the world during those 3.5 years. Instead of calling this period the wrath of God, I would call it the wrath of Satan because that is what the Bible calls it.

    Rev. 12:12-17
    12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    It is only after the wrath of Satan against Israel and against Christianity, has run its course for 3.5 years; that the wrath of God is poured out on Satan and his followers. God's wrath does not begin until the 70th week has ended. The terms "great tribulation" and "God's wrath" describe non-overlapping periods of time. The terms "great tribulation" and "Satan's wrath" are synonymous.

    We have similar points of view, but we use the same terms with different meanings.

  12. #147
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    Re: The cycles of the 24th chapter of Matthew

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    For a start, kindly accept my unreserved apologies.

    (snip for brevity)

    So in my view, the GT is not a protracted event that spanned over 1900 years (70 AD-1948) and limited to the Jews. It is a future event that will have worldwide ramifications.
    Thanks for your kind words.

    For the moment and for the sake of my studies, I would like to suspend my own interpretation of Matthew 24 in order to explore another alternative. And I appreciate your thoughts and input here. Since you prefer Matthew 24, I will attempt to explore my new idea from that book, but I will need Luke 21 to fill in the picture, I think.

    As you have acknowledged, the view of the GT that I am suspending for the moment is the idea that the GT starts the moment the Romans lay siege to Jerusalem in 70AD and the GT ends when the Jews have returned back to the land. I picked 1948. I'm suspending that idea for a moment, but I don't want to abandon the idea entirely. I think the Exile of the Jews from the land and the subsequent return of the Jews back to the land is highly significant, and so let me table that idea but not abandon it altogether.

    And let's not attempt to figure out the start and the finish of the GT, unless you have some ideas about that you want to share from your perspective. For this post, let me simply outline the features and characteristics of the GT and look at the big picture. Let's put the text in front of us.

    (BTW, I am writing this in conversational form, but my intent is not to be manipulative or polemic. I am honestly thinking aloud here.)

    Matthew 24:
    21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

    And let's bring in Revelation chapter 7

    Revelation 7:
    9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,

    “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying,

    “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”


    Great Tribulation Summary:
    A. Mathew's Record.
    1. Unprecedented time of tribulation.
    2. Days cut short for the sake of the elect.
    3. False claims of the Messiah's appearance.
    4. Great signs and wonders will be manifest in order to mislead.


    B. Revelation's Record
    1. A great, international multitude dressed in white robes
    2. Came out of Great Tribulation


    Once we add Revelation's record to Matthew's record, we see that my original claim is contradicted. The effects of the GT are international, and involve a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, not a local phenomenon and exclusive to the Jewish people.

    But as I say, my desire is not to dismiss, minimize or neglect Luke's record that God will bring on the Jewish people what he calls "Days of Vengeance." So, if I am correct, we now have two categories instead of one, as I originally thought. Given these two categories, I will highlight a section of Matthew 24 according to these two categories, giving a unique color to each one.

    Days of Vengeance:
    Matthew 24:
    15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

    Great Tribulation:
    21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

    Comments?

  13. #148
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    Re: The cycles of the 24th chapter of Matthew

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I Think this makes complete sense But we do agree as for the premise that we are not talking about the GT.



    Clearly, yes I see a problem

    The Days of Vengeance ended after the city was destroyed and they were carried away into many nations. This was a fulfilment of the prophies outlined in Daniel 9:26

    The time of the Gentiles also clearly did not end in 1948 since "Israel" doesn't control Jerusalem.

    So how does this connect to the GT for you?
    Considering the Holocaust and the pogroms etc. I couldn't argue that the Days of Vengeance ended in the first century. But as I explore this issue here, I will need to deal with Luke's word about the time of the Gentiles, so thank-you for reminding me of that. At the moment I am suspending my view that the GT began in 70AD and ended in 1948AD. I can see now that I conflated Luke's report concerning the Days of Vengeance and Matthew's report about the Great Tribulation and once I give full consideration for John's record in Revelation chapter 7, I am compelled to rethink my view. And frankly, it wasn't as if Revelation 7 was new information for me. I had always known about that passage, but I simply had a blind spot there. Revelation 7 remained behind the A-pillar, until the post from Trivalee triggered something in my thinking.

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    Re: The cycles of the 24th chapter of Matthew

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Considering the Holocaust and the pogroms etc. I couldn't argue that the Days of Vengeance ended in the first century.
    Once more according to your days of Vengence definition i don't think the Holocaust or its progragms counts since the Location has to be Jerusalem and Judea

    A. Location Jerusalem ,Judea


    B. Intended aim great distress upon the land

    wrath to this people

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    Re: The cycles of the 24th chapter of Matthew

    We agree that there will be a 70th week. We disagree on the terminology. I just call this the 70th week of Daniel. It is hard to say how much tribulation or troubles occur during the first 3.5 years. Jews will be in their land and worshiping in their temple in Jerusalem. I am ok with calling the first 3.5 years a time of pseudo-peace.

    The AoD does start the period of great tribulation, thus the great tribulation is 3.5 years. The great tribulation does spread from Israel to the rest of the world during those 3.5 years. Instead of calling this period the wrath of God, I would call it the wrath of Satan because that is what the Bible calls it.
    No it does't brother, I can prove it with the verses you posted. Who is Jacobs Troubles speaking about? Israel of course.......Rev. 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    So the Inhabitants of ALL HE EARTH will have to deal with this TYRANT, not just Israel, so this can't be Jacobs Troubles this is Gods wrath being loosed. Jacobs Troubles is theirs alone, it begins with the signing of the Peace/Security deal and carries on for the full seven years, the Day of the Lords Wrath is a part of it, BUT....Not to those Jewish Peoples who fled to the Wilderness, they will not have this trouble for the 3.5 years, so even though there are "TROUBLES" and Israel has to FLEE they are yet PROTECTED from Gods Wrath, as long as they fled like Jesus warned them to. Just like the Church who heeded Gods words are Raprured before this seven year period.

    My point is, these "Troubles" bring Israel to repentance and the bible says they Repent BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

    Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    Israel repents before the (DOTL).

    The Wrath of God begins with the very FIRST SEAL, Its called the Lambs Wrath. Jacobs Troubles is not the whole worlds troubles, thus the name. The Whole world receives of the Seals/Trumpets/Vials Wrath of God. There are called Plagues, they come against the whole world.

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