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Thread: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

  1. #1

    Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    I am having trouble reconciling some things about the "parable" of the sheep and goats. I will not post every verse, but mainly just the relevant parts.

    *[[Mat 25:31]] KJV* When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    *[[Mat 25:32]] KJV* And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    *[[Mat 25:33]] KJV* And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    *[[Mat 25:34]] KJV* Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    *[[Mat 25:37]] KJV* Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?....

    *[[Mat 25:40]] KJV* And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    *[[Mat 25:41]] KJV* Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ...

    *[[Mat 25:44]] KJV* Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    *[[Mat 25:45]] KJV* Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    *[[Mat 25:46]] KJV* And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Q1. When does this take place?
    A. At the beginning of Jesus 's reign?
    B. Encompassing the whole of his reign?
    C. At the end of his reign?

    One might be inclined to think that the answer is easy, but here is why it is not.

    I. The righteous/ sheep nations, inherit the kingdom of God that has been preparing since the foundation of the world. Has the promise made to Abraham and his seed, been in preparation from the beginning? Could not the same be said of the New Jerusalem?

    II. The goats inherit/ get cast into the lake of fire? This is one of the big points of this discussion. Notice the particular of what is said. Depart Into everlasting fire... that has been prepared for the devil and his angels. Did it occur to your thinking that the devil is chained in the bottomless pit FOR 1000 YEARS, [only], and afterwards her is cast into the lake of fire forever

    *[[Rev 20:10]] KJV* And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night FOR EVER AND EVER . I think today it is safe to assume that the everlasting fire, that the goats are sent to, has to be the lake of fire and not the bottomless pit. Outside of the beast and false prophet, no one is cast into the lake of fire until the resurrection of the wicked. I find it hard to justify anyone being sent there prior to the GWTJ. I think that it is also safe to say that no one or thing ever leaves the lake of fire. Does it make a difference that we are talking about goat NATIONS? and not individuals?

    [[[A couple of sidenote thoughts that i have had to change my views on. The devil is chained in the bottomless pit for 1000 years. Why is his judgment delayed and he is put into a temporary holding place.

    *[[Rev 20:10]] KJV* And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    Besides the obvious reason stated in Rev. 20 [to deceive], there is something else at play here.

    *[[Jud 1:6]] KJV* And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the GREAT DAY . The angels that sinned will remain in chains until the great day of judgment, at the time of the GWTJ. Because Satan is also bound in a chain, IN THE BOTTOMLESS PIT, this must be the same place where these other angels are currently bound. It more than likely is the place called tartarus. But let us not forget, that they are and will remain in chains, and the pit that is inaccessible without someone to open the locked door. Because it has a name, tartarus is probably only a subchamber of the bottomless pit. I will reiterate this point, no demon that is chained there will be released until the end of the millennium. ]]]

    Q2. Is the left and right hand separation, connected in any way to the apostles quest for authority in Jesus's kingdom?

    *[[Mat 20:21]] KJV* And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

    *[[Mat 20:23]] KJV* And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

    Will there be no apostle to sit on Jesus's left hand?
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

  2. #2

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    As I understand it, this [Matthew 25:31-34 and context] takes place at His Second Coming to the earth [just following "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (also Matt13:30,39-40,49-50; and re: Matt24:3's Q)].

    Verse 41's "Depart from Me, those being cursed, into-unto [G1519 - eis] the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels"... Does this necessarily mean that the "sentence" (being "declared" here) is "fully carried out" at that exact time, or just the "depart from Me" part, whereas the "unto [G1519 - eis]" could be meaning, that which will certainly take place [at the end of the MK at the GWTj].

    In the Matthew 13 passage (which I consider to be parallel [time-wise, etc], i.e. Second Coming to the earth), in verses 42 and 50 there is an interesting phrasing, which I see as the "interim" [or immediate] destination (again, with "the fire" being the ultimate destination at the GWTj). It says the angels cast them "into-unto THE FURNACE OF the fire" (in 13:42 and 13:50). and "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (which parallels other passages where some are cast out of the MK time period, that is, not permitted to participate in and enjoy it). So could one ['FURNACE OF' (in particular)] be referring to the interim punishment (for Isaiah 24:21-23, esp v.22 does refer to two "punishments" separated by "many days ['after many days [the MK] shall they be punished']," and the other ['fire' as in 'lake of fire'] be the ultimate destination/punishment? And in Matt25:41 the "Depart from Me" be the immediate punishment, whereas the "unto [G1519] everlasting fire" be the ultimate [further] destination (that is, "carried out" at the GWTj following the 1000y)?


    In a similar way that we are "sealed [with the Holy Spirit of God] UNTO [G1519 - eis] the day of redemption" (not an immediate destination, but ultimate ['sealed' presently; but the 'UNTO' referring to the ultimate destination]).

    This is kind of how I see it, but I'll be interested in reading others' thoughts on it.

  3. #3
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    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    I am having trouble reconciling some things about the "parable" of the sheep and goats. I will not post every verse, but mainly just the relevant parts.

    *[[Mat 25:31]] KJV* When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    *[[Mat 25:32]] KJV* And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    *[[Mat 25:33]] KJV* And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    *[[Mat 25:34]] KJV* Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    *[[Mat 25:37]] KJV* Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?....

    *[[Mat 25:40]] KJV* And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    *[[Mat 25:41]] KJV* Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ...

    *[[Mat 25:44]] KJV* Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    *[[Mat 25:45]] KJV* Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    *[[Mat 25:46]] KJV* And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Q1. When does this take place?
    A. At the beginning of Jesus 's reign?
    B. Encompassing the whole of his reign?
    C. At the end of his reign?

    One might be inclined to think that the answer is easy, but here is why it is not.

    I. The righteous/ sheep nations, inherit the kingdom of God that has been preparing since the foundation of the world. Has the promise made to Abraham and his seed, been in preparation from the beginning? Could not the same be said of the New Jerusalem?

    II. The goats inherit/ get cast into the lake of fire? This is one of the big points of this discussion. Notice the particular of what is said. Depart Into everlasting fire... that has been prepared for the devil and his angels. Did it occur to your thinking that the devil is chained in the bottomless pit FOR 1000 YEARS, [only], and afterwards her is cast into the lake of fire forever

    *[[Rev 20:10]] KJV* And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night FOR EVER AND EVER . I think today it is safe to assume that the everlasting fire, that the goats are sent to, has to be the lake of fire and not the bottomless pit. Outside of the beast and false prophet, no one is cast into the lake of fire until the resurrection of the wicked. I find it hard to justify anyone being sent there prior to the GWTJ. I think that it is also safe to say that no one or thing ever leaves the lake of fire. Does it make a difference that we are talking about goat NATIONS? and not individuals?

    [[[A couple of sidenote thoughts that i have had to change my views on. The devil is chained in the bottomless pit for 1000 years. Why is his judgment delayed and he is put into a temporary holding place.

    *[[Rev 20:10]] KJV* And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    Besides the obvious reason stated in Rev. 20 [to deceive], there is something else at play here.

    *[[Jud 1:6]] KJV* And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the GREAT DAY . The angels that sinned will remain in chains until the great day of judgment, at the time of the GWTJ. Because Satan is also bound in a chain, IN THE BOTTOMLESS PIT, this must be the same place where these other angels are currently bound. It more than likely is the place called tartarus. But let us not forget, that they are and will remain in chains, and the pit that is inaccessible without someone to open the locked door. Because it has a name, tartarus is probably only a subchamber of the bottomless pit. I will reiterate this point, no demon that is chained there will be released until the end of the millennium. ]]]

    Q2. Is the left and right hand separation, connected in any way to the apostles quest for authority in Jesus's kingdom?

    *[[Mat 20:21]] KJV* And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

    *[[Mat 20:23]] KJV* And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

    Will there be no apostle to sit on Jesus's left hand?
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB
    From Adam to Babel there was ONE nation on earth. After Babel there were THE nations, divided by language and borders. From Abraham there was A nation, A special nation via Isaac called Israel. But Israel is still one of these nations - just separated by God. Israel was to be the leading nation and have the God of Heaven and Earth dwelling among them. Their history is tragic, a history of a failed relationship with their God and Benefactor. At their lowest point their Messiah arrived and offered them restoration to the leading nation if they embraced Him. He offered them the Kingdom OF Heaven, that is, God's Kingdom and Heavenly rule on earth. Israel not only rejected this Kingdom but murdered the King and Messiah as well. In Matthew 21:43 the Lord pronounces that the Kingdom of Heaven is ripped away from them and given to AN-other "people" who would bear the fruits of it. So, beginning on resurrection day, when believers in Jesus received the Holy Spirit INSIDE them, this new "nation" or "people" were started (Jn.20:22). Thus, from resurrection day onward we have a third "nation" or "people" - the Church.

    At the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus, as new King and Judge of the earth, He has to deal with THESE THREE PEOPLES - (1) THE nations, (2) the nation of Israel and (3) the Church. So when our Lord Jesus answers the three questions posed to Him by His disciples in Matthew 24:3, He deals, in turn, with these THREE "peoples". From Matthew 24:4-31 our Lord Jesus deals with all that pertains to Israel - from the destruction of their Temple, through the gospel age to what will happen when He returns. The context is totally Jewish. It deals with the Temple, Judea, Jerusalem, the Sabbath, the Law, the persecution of the Jews and the Abomination of Desolation which was predicted by Daniel, a Jewish Prophet and which concerns "Daniel's People". This section ends with our Lord Jesus bursting forth from the clouds over the Mount of Olives and the Jews MOURNING as they recognize their 2,000 years of folly, starting with their murder of Jesus.

    Then in Matthew 24:32 to 25:30 our Lord Jesus deals with His SERVANTS. Since both the nations and the nation of Israel are His enemies and reject Him they cannot be His servants. But the Christians are continually called His servants throughout the New Testament. And this section dealing with His SERVANTS addresses MORALITY, not "SIGNS". It deals with what will happen to the various SERVANTS when the Master appears and judges them based on what kind of a Christian they were.

    Then, from Matthew 25:31-46 the Lord Jesus predicts what will happen to the third entity on earth THE nations. The wording of Matthew 25:31-32 is unequivocal.

    31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: ... :"


    Israel have been dealt with in Matthew 24:4-31, the Church has been dealt with in Matthew 24:32 to 25:30, and now our Lord Jesus tells of the fate of ALL nations. The problem that most students of the Bible have with this section is that they cannot understand how a heathen, that is, one of the nations, can inherit the Kingdom. I will presently present proof, but the short of it is that in God's Kingdom we will have;
    1. Israel restored and living in their Land with Jesus living in Ezekiel's Temple in Jerusalem administering the New Covenant with united, and gathered, Israel
    2. Christians, some of which will be ruling the cities of the earth (Matt.24:47; Lk.19:17-19) and some in disgrace and chastisement (Matt.24:48-51)
    3. The SUBJECTS - those of the NATIONS who survived the Great Tribulation and who must make an annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem to worship Emmanuel Who lives there (Zech14:16)

    In any Kingdom we have the King, his royal administrators, the military and/or police, and the SUBJECTS. A short word on the word "SUBJECT" is in order. In a Republic the general population are called CITIZENS. Their constitution gives them certain rights and they have a say in matters governmental. But in a Monarchy, the general population are called SUBJECTS because they have no rights and are SUBJECT to the whims of the Monarch. So will be the Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ. He rules SOVEREIGNLY with "a rod of iron" (Ps.2:9; Rev.19:15). Thus, ALL nations will be SUBJECTS of Christ's Kingdom.

    The SUBJECTS in the Kingdom of God are divided again into two - the criminals who are in jail and who do not enjoy the benefits of the Kingdom, and the obedient subjects who enjoy all the privileges and joys attached to that Kingdom. One, through evil works inherited jail, and one, through good works, inherited the Kingdom with all its pleasures and privileges.

    AND WHO WILL BE NAMED AS A PRISONER, AND WHO WILL BE NAMED AS A SUBJECT IN GOOD STANDING, IS DECIDED AT CHRIST'S THRONE WHEN HE SETS IT UP ON EARTH AFTER HIS RETURN. "ALL" nations (who survive the Great Tribulation) will be appointed their retribution or reward based on how they treated Jews and Christians during the great Tribulation. That is, their WORKS. In Revelation 12 we see TWO of the Heavenly Woman's THREE seeds go into a wilderness for the duration of the Great Tribulation where they are helped, NOT BY GOD, but BY THE EARTH (Rev.12:16)! It is during this "time, times and half a time" that the fate is set for ALL nations still living at Christ's return. The question at the Judgement of the Sheep and the Goats is NOT; "did you believe in Jesus or not?" They all admit not knowing Him. The question is; "When I was hungry, thirsty, naked and in jail (for the Beast wages war against them and overcomes them - Rev.13:7), DID YOU HELP ME OR NOT"? The nations will answer, WE NEVER KNEW IT WAS YOU! Then our Lord Jesus will say; "you remember that man who had my testimony fleeing from the Beast and unable to trade because he did not have the Mark - that was a lowly Christian, but whatever you did to him, you did to me. And do you remember that lowly Jew who was keeping God's Commandments, and was hated by the Beast because he upheld my Commandment not to worship an idol? WHAT DID YOU DO?

    The "Sheep" who took a chance and thwarted the Beast's laws to kill Christians and practicing Jews, will ENTER the Kingdom of Heaven on earth AS SUBJECTS. The "Goats", those who embraced the Beast and refuse help to a lowly Christian and lowly Jew in need, will have the ending predicted by Isaiah 66 and Mark 9. They will be alive but, "... their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh" (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:44-49). Matthew 10:28 shows what happens to those who do WORKS against God. It is intense suffering of the BODY AND SOUL at God's hand.

  4. #4
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    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Each time I read this passage, the more I become convinced that this parable isn't intended to convey an actual event, but useful to convey the terms of judgment. Take for instance the parable of the ten virgins. I doubt that Jesus intended to suggest that the population of the earth is 10, or that the final population of the kingdom of God will be 5. The story is useful in that it conveys one of many criteria distinguishing those who will enter the kingdom and those who don't. I think the same could be said about the parable of the talents. The story isn't intended to represent actual events in history, but serves to establish another set of criteria by which people will be judged. It's possible that the parable of the sheep and goats is also not intended to represent actual events but to illustrate or convey another set of criteria by which we can know who will enter the kingdom and who won't, and more importantly, give us a window into mind of Jesus and what are the kinds of things we should be doing while he is gone.

  5. #5

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Each time I read this passage, the more I become convinced that this parable isn't intended to convey an actual event, but useful to convey the terms of judgment. Take for instance the parable of the ten virgins. I doubt that Jesus intended to suggest that the population of the earth is 10, or that the final population of the kingdom of God will be 5. The story is useful in that it conveys one of many criteria distinguishing those who will enter the kingdom and those who don't. I think the same could be said about the parable of the talents. The story isn't intended to represent actual events in history, but serves to establish another set of criteria by which people will be judged. It's possible that the parable of the sheep and goats is also not intended to represent actual events but to illustrate or convey another set of criteria by which we can know who will enter the kingdom and who won't, and more importantly, give us a window into mind of Jesus and what are the kinds of things we should be doing while he is gone.
    I like what you say here, but tho i used "parable" in my initial thoughts, it is not a parable. It is something that will happen. Verse 32 illustrates the mere usage of metaphorical language.

    *[[Mat 25:32]] KJV* And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    But i did believe that it illustrates the criteria that the Lord will use. There is some language that closely parallels Matt 25 found in Joel 3.

    *[[Joe 3:12]] KJV* Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
    *[[Joe 3:13]] KJV* Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
    *[[Joe 3:14]] KJV* Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

    Here it says that he will sit to judge the nations and the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The day of the Lord involves final judgment into the lake of fire.

    *[[Mat 25:31]] KJV* When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    The point made in Matt 25 is ones attitude towards his brethren (when they are in need) is a tell-tale sign of one's eternal destiny. Look again at the words in Joel:
    "Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision". Once the Lord begins to sit upon the throne of his glory, I can't fathom any of the children of Israel [those who make it unto that day] being hungry, thirsty, naked, or in prison. So their eternal judgment will be determined by what goes on during the days leading up to the return of Jesus.

    When Jesus returns, he will execute judgment on [some] nations who gathered against Jerusalem to destroy her. Scripture speak of nations that will be remembered no more. Moab, Ammon, and Edom are examples. But, i think the understanding of things comes from recognizing that not all nations will gather against Jerusalem. Some will not. Wil some join in the fight to defend her (Jerusalem)? Probably. I think that their preeminent behaviour will have been manifest in a prior kind of way- their treatment of the children of Israel. But I think that some nations will remain on the sidelines during these times. I think somewhere the scriptures declare that you are either for me (the Lord) or against me. What I am saying is that some nations will not have made a manifest declaration for, or against, the people of God. And that God will use the millennium as a time of proving their hearts desire. After all, it says this:

    *[[Zec 14:16]] KJV* And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    *[[Zec 14:17]] KJV* And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
    *[[Zec 14:18]] KJV* And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    *[[Zec 14:19]] KJV* This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

    Some nations will manifest their hatred for the Lord, AFTER Jesus has sat down on the throne of his glory. I think this will be a time for the nations to repent OR, manifest their hearts desire. There is no neutral ground with the LORD.

    In a nutshell, blessings, in this case, rain, comes as a RESULT of worship, and not worship coming from being blessed [by the LORD]. God is going to manifest the desires of everyone's heart. After all, look at what happens when the devil its loosed out of his prison:

    *[[Rev 20:8]] KJV* And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    *[[Rev 20:9]] KJV* And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
    *[[Rev 20:10]] KJV* And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    This will be the time in which those nations shall be cast into the lake of fire.

    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

  6. #6

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    As a final thought, concerning those nations that remain on the sidelines prior to the return of Jesus, when they do come to worship the Lord, DURING the millennium, will be included in the inheritors of the kingdom.
    Blessings
    GB

  7. #7

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Here are a couple of other (I believe) pertinent passages (I've posted about before):

    Matthew 18:8-9 -

    "8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

    9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."


    Mark 9:43-48 -

    43
    And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

    44
    Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

    45
    And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

    46
    Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

    47
    And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: [see Lk22:30,16,18 ("shall come") and Matt25:31,34 (compare Matt19:28, for timing)]

    48
    Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.




    These seem to be "living / mortal" persons (just as the Matt25 passage; esp v.46 "but the righteous into life eternal"). [as opposed to "resurrected" persons]

    Only "the righteous" will enter that time period. [also in Matt13:30,39,40,39-50 "gather ye together FIRST the tares" (note: this is the opposite sequence to that of our Rapture event)] Of course, as I've mentioned before, those children born to them (in the MK time period) are not "born automatically righteous/saved".

  8. #8
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    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Here are my reasons that Matthew 25:31-46 is NOT a Parable.

    The first and most important is that it is neither stated nor implied that it is a Parable. It is in answer to Matthew 24:3. "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, (1) when shall these things be? and (2) what shall be the sign of thy coming, and (3) of the end of the age?" And the section starts; "When the Son of man shall come ... ." (Matthew 25:31). It is a clear answer to the events surrounding His COMING.

    Then ...
    1. Angels are real and predicted at His Coming. In Matthew alone - multiple times (13:39, 41, 49, 24:31, etc.)
    2. The Lord will have a real Throne (Ezek.43:7, etc.)
    3. The Lord has predicted and promised to judge the nations, both living and dead. In this case, the living
    4. There will be Christians (with the Testimony of Jesus Christ) and Jews (who keep the Commandments of God) on earth at the end of the age - BOTH who are the Lord's BRETHREN
    5. There is an "everlasting fire" and the Devil and his angels will go to it (Rev.20:10)
    6. There is a coming Kingdom on this earth and there will be Jew, Christian and unbeliever in it (e.g. Zech.14:16; Rev.19:15)
    7. The allegory of "sheep" and "goats" is already explained to be real people in verse 32. They are members of the nations - real people

    I find not a single inkling that this section of scripture is anything but real.

  9. #9

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Here are my reasons that Matthew 25:31-46 is NOT a Parable.

    The first and most important is that it is neither stated nor implied that it is a Parable. It is in answer to Matthew 24:3. "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, (1) when shall these things be? and (2) what shall be the sign of thy coming, and (3) of the end of the age?" And the section starts; "When the Son of man shall come ... ." (Matthew 25:31). It is a clear answer to the events surrounding His COMING.

    Then ...
    1. Angels are real and predicted at His Coming. In Matthew alone - multiple times (13:39, 41, 49, 24:31, etc.)
    2. The Lord will have a real Throne (Ezek.43:7, etc.)
    3. The Lord has predicted and promised to judge the nations, both living and dead. In this case, the living
    4. There will be Christians (with the Testimony of Jesus Christ) and Jews (who keep the Commandments of God) on earth at the end of the age - BOTH who are the Lord's BRETHREN
    5. There is an "everlasting fire" and the Devil and his angels will go to it (Rev.20:10)
    6. There is a coming Kingdom on this earth and there will be Jew, Christian and unbeliever in it (e.g. Zech.14:16; Rev.19:15)
    7. The allegory of "sheep" and "goats" is already explained to be real people in verse 32. They are members of the nations - real people

    I find not a single inkling that this section of scripture is anything but real.
    Maybe add Joel 3 to your list? ☺

  10. #10
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    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    Maybe add Joel 3 to your list? ☺
    Yes. Thank you brother. We could add maybe a dozen more from the Old Testament, starting with Psalm 9:8. "And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness." See also Psalm 67:4 and 82:8;
    • 4 "O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah."
    • 8 "Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations."


  11. #11

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    I am having trouble reconciling some things about the "parable" of the sheep and goats. I will not post every verse, but mainly just the relevant parts.

    *[[Mat 25:31]] KJV* When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    *[[Mat 25:32]] KJV* And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    *[[Mat 25:33]] KJV* And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    *[[Mat 25:34]] KJV* Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    *[[Mat 25:37]] KJV* Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?....

    *[[Mat 25:40]] KJV* And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    *[[Mat 25:41]] KJV* Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ...

    *[[Mat 25:44]] KJV* Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    *[[Mat 25:45]] KJV* Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    *[[Mat 25:46]] KJV* And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Q1. When does this take place?
    A. At the beginning of Jesus 's reign?
    B. Encompassing the whole of his reign?
    C. At the end of his reign?

    One might be inclined to think that the answer is easy, but here is why it is not.

    I. The righteous/ sheep nations, inherit the kingdom of God that has been preparing since the foundation of the world. Has the promise made to Abraham and his seed, been in preparation from the beginning? Could not the same be said of the New Jerusalem?

    II. The goats inherit/ get cast into the lake of fire? This is one of the big points of this discussion. Notice the particular of what is said. Depart Into everlasting fire... that has been prepared for the devil and his angels. Did it occur to your thinking that the devil is chained in the bottomless pit FOR 1000 YEARS, [only], and afterwards her is cast into the lake of fire forever

    *[[Rev 20:10]] KJV* And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night FOR EVER AND EVER . I think today it is safe to assume that the everlasting fire, that the goats are sent to, has to be the lake of fire and not the bottomless pit. Outside of the beast and false prophet, no one is cast into the lake of fire until the resurrection of the wicked. I find it hard to justify anyone being sent there prior to the GWTJ. I think that it is also safe to say that no one or thing ever leaves the lake of fire. Does it make a difference that we are talking about goat NATIONS? and not individuals?

    [[[A couple of sidenote thoughts that i have had to change my views on. The devil is chained in the bottomless pit for 1000 years. Why is his judgment delayed and he is put into a temporary holding place.

    *[[Rev 20:10]] KJV* And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    Besides the obvious reason stated in Rev. 20 [to deceive], there is something else at play here.

    *[[Jud 1:6]] KJV* And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the GREAT DAY . The angels that sinned will remain in chains until the great day of judgment, at the time of the GWTJ. Because Satan is also bound in a chain, IN THE BOTTOMLESS PIT, this must be the same place where these other angels are currently bound. It more than likely is the place called tartarus. But let us not forget, that they are and will remain in chains, and the pit that is inaccessible without someone to open the locked door. Because it has a name, tartarus is probably only a subchamber of the bottomless pit. I will reiterate this point, no demon that is chained there will be released until the end of the millennium. ]]]

    Q2. Is the left and right hand separation, connected in any way to the apostles quest for authority in Jesus's kingdom?

    *[[Mat 20:21]] KJV* And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

    *[[Mat 20:23]] KJV* And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

    Will there be no apostle to sit on Jesus's left hand?
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB
    These are big questions! I have no definitive answers, but only theories. And my theories here are subject to constant revision. The first question I would have is, Does this judgment take place immediately after Christ's 2nd Coming, or does it take place at the end of the Millennium?

    The context seems to imply that it takes place immediately after Christ returns. He gathers the nations and appears to determine among them who specifically and individually belong in the camp of the pagan nations and who belong in the camp of God's people? It is to be noted that eternal judgment is being meted out here, a casting into eternal fire or the inheritance of God's Kingdom. Eternal fire, here, appears to represent not eternal torment, but rather, eternal separation. It is a fire to destroy the presence of impure elements in an otherwise pure environment.

    For me this appears to be the most general of statements about the future of individuals in eternity, rather than a specific event. We aren't given specifically when it will happen except that it will happen as a result of Christ's 2nd Coming.

    We do know the lake of fire judgment takes place at the end of the Millennium, but for the Beast and for the False Prophet it takes place prior to this, at Armageddon. So it may be that there is a lake of fire judgment that takes place at Christ's Coming, even before the final lake of fire judgment at the end of the Millennium?

    And so I would ask, Is it possible that there are *two* Great White Throne Judgment days? Is there a gathering of nations at Armageddon for judgment of the nations at Christ's Return? And is there also a gathering of the nations at the end of the Millennium for another GWTJ?

    The picture Christ paints is the OT picture of the division between Israel and the pagan nations. And it appears that Christ is asking what individuals belong in each camp? Obviously, not every individual in the pagan nations are to be excluded from God's People. On the other hand, not all in Israel belong to Israel.

    Things are expressed differently in the NT age, since now we have had godly Gentile nations and an ungodly Jewish people. But the principle is the same. What individuals belong among God's people, and what individuals belong with the pagan societies?

  12. #12

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Here's Isaiah 24:21-23 (note the similarity of timing/sequence in Rev19:19 / Rev16:14-16 etc to that of Isa24:21-22):

    21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

    22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days [after the MK] shall they be visited/punished.

    23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

  13. #13
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    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Here are my reasons that Matthew 25:31-46 is NOT a Parable.

    The first and most important is that it is neither stated nor implied that it is a Parable. It is in answer to Matthew 24:3. "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, (1) when shall these things be? and (2) what shall be the sign of thy coming, and (3) of the end of the age?" And the section starts; "When the Son of man shall come ... ." (Matthew 25:31). It is a clear answer to the events surrounding His COMING.

    Then ...
    1. Angels are real and predicted at His Coming. In Matthew alone - multiple times (13:39, 41, 49, 24:31, etc.)
    2. The Lord will have a real Throne (Ezek.43:7, etc.)
    3. The Lord has predicted and promised to judge the nations, both living and dead. In this case, the living
    4. There will be Christians (with the Testimony of Jesus Christ) and Jews (who keep the Commandments of God) on earth at the end of the age - BOTH who are the Lord's BRETHREN
    5. There is an "everlasting fire" and the Devil and his angels will go to it (Rev.20:10)
    6. There is a coming Kingdom on this earth and there will be Jew, Christian and unbeliever in it (e.g. Zech.14:16; Rev.19:15)
    7. The allegory of "sheep" and "goats" is already explained to be real people in verse 32. They are members of the nations - real people

    I find not a single inkling that this section of scripture is anything but real.
    But you DO acknowledge that the Sheep/Goats account is an allegory, so I am uncertain why you think it is an allegory but not a parable.

  14. #14

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    But you DO acknowledge that the Sheep/Goats account is an allegory, so I am uncertain why you think it is an allegory but not a parable.
    After all the other verses have been submitted to support the reality, you still want to argue semantics?

  15. #15
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    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    After all the other verses have been submitted to support the reality, you still want to argue semantics?
    I want to understand the passage and a determination of the genre is important to that understanding.

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