Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 12345
Results 61 to 73 of 73

Thread: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    3,933

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Sorry i don't understand your logic here, the NT clearly uses the term servants to refer to Jews from Matthew to Rev the 12 disciples were Jews as was most of the early Church before Peter went to the gentiles, the idea that half way thru Matthew the term "servant" can no longer apply to Jews to me is kinda of asinine. One must set in their mind how Jesus uses the term Kingdom of Heaven in the book of Matthew. Almost all context refer to it being a literal kingdom established on earth out of the Throne of David. Not the Kingdom of God which once more is within us until it manifest at the rapture since as Paul clearly states. 1 Cor 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Notice the Contrast between that and Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    This lines us with what Jesus states in John 3:5-8 once more about the Kingdom of God.

    Go thru the use of Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew and ask yourself is this a physical or a spiritual Kingdom?



    According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

    16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.

    Also see 2 Cor 5 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    None of these passages seem to carry the idea that you will be cast into outer darkness a punishment for the things done in your body

    The Bema is to reward those who have done work for the Lord, those who don't build lasting things (wood hay ect) their works will be burned up by as the bible says they will suffer loss but be saved.

    As for hebrews 12 same thing a father Chastises his Son but he doesn't throw his Son out of his House(into outer Darkness).
    I think, if I have understood you correctly, that we agree. The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God is a physical Kingdom set up on earth after Christ's return. However, as the Holy Spirit, as always, is applying and empowering this Kingdom, it is also a "Spiritual Kingdom" - not in name, but by default. It is the same as the Church. It is made of our BODIES (1st Cor.6:15), which is physical and tangible, but it is a "spiritual House" (1st Pet.2:5). My understanding of the difference between "the Kingdom of Heaven" and "the Kingdom of God" is very simple. Our Lord explains it in His so-called "Lord's Prayer" in Matthew 6:10. In this verse are both, and they are explained; "Thy (God's) kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." The "Kingdom of God" is a Kingdom where God is King. And the "Kingdom of Heaven" is a Kingdom where the same RULE takes place as the RULE in heaven.

    As to the Bema, Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10 do not mention outer darkness, nor did I say they did. But the Bema indicates that moment when each Christian must give an account of him/herself. So let us take this moment as it is enlarged in Matthew 24:44-51.

    44 "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
    45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
    46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
    48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
    49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
    50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
    51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."


    The "YE" of verse 44 is obviously the disciples, for the Lord is addressing them. So then also must the "SERVANT" be disciples. Next, in verse 45 it says "HIS LORD". Now the Jews refused Jesus as Lord. In John 19:15, when Pilate offers Jesus as their King, they answer; "Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar." Thus, the SERVANT of verse 45 is NOT A JEW. Next, the SERVANT is made ruler over Christ's HOUSEHOLD. Israel is NOT Christ's HOUSEHOLD! The CHURCH IS! Thus, the SERVANT must be a Christian. So what do you think the LOSS of 1st Corinthians 3 is? Is it not in connection with the Church? Next, in verse 47 the REWARD is to be "made ruler over all His (Jesus') things". But this is not possible for Jews because in Matthew 21:43 the Kingdom is ripped away from the Jews. The Kingdom of Israel will be restored. David's throne will be restored. But will Israel rule the earth? NAY!

    Then verse 48 IS DECISIVE FOR THE CHRISTIAN AND/OR DISCIPLE. Notice the grammar. "But and if THAT evil servant ... ." It is the SAME SERVANT AS VERSE 47! So also verse 50! It is the Lord of THAT Servant. The only difference is that the Master delayed His coming, and THAT SAME SERVANT became slothful and evil. And the consequences are DIRE for this SERVANT/DISCIPLE/MEMBER OF THE CHURCH! "And (He the Lord of the servant) shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth"

    Take your time and consider it carefully. I too was shocked when, all those years ago, the truth dawned on me that being a Christian is anything but a free ride.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    2,671

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I think, if I have understood you correctly, that we agree. The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God is a physical Kingdom set up on earth after Christ's return. However, as the Holy Spirit, as always, is applying and empowering this Kingdom, it is also a "Spiritual Kingdom" - not in name, but by default. It is the same as the Church. It is made of our BODIES (1st Cor.6:15), which is physical and tangible, but it is a "spiritual House" (1st Pet.2:5). My understanding of the difference between "the Kingdom of Heaven" and "the Kingdom of God" is very simple. Our Lord explains it in His so-called "Lord's Prayer" in Matthew 6:10. In this verse are both, and they are explained; "Thy (God's) kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." The "Kingdom of God" is a Kingdom where God is King. And the "Kingdom of Heaven" is a Kingdom where the same RULE takes place as the RULE in heaven.
    Correct, this was the Kingdom God promised in His Covenant with David. Matthew is the book about Jesus the King of Israel and the Kingdom of Heaven is used to refer to this Kingdom, so once more if you notice the passages that are specifically about that Kingdom (including ALL outer Darkness Quotes) you will understand why i don't apply it to the Kingdom of God, which we are now a part of by the indwelling of the Spirit. Romans 14:17. Passages that specifically define and promise the Kingdom of Heaven are

    Daniel 2:44, in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

    The God of Heaven will *set up* a Kingdom

    Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

    Fullfilled in the NT in Rev 11:15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


    Promised by Jesus Matthew 19:28 That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


    29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.


    30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

    Also see Luke 22:24 A dispute also arose among them, as to which of them was to be regarded as the greatest. 25 And he said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those in authority over them are called benefactors. 26 But not so with you. Rather, let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves. 27 For who is the greater, one who reclines at table or one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at table? But I am among you as the one who serves.

    28“You are those who have stayed with me in my trials, 29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Once more notice that the Kingdom of Heaven is Jesus on the Throne of His Glory (The Throne of David) and the deciples on 12 thrones ruling over the House of JACOB, not the "House of the Church".

    This however is different then the Kingdom of God found to be proclaimed at the casting down of Satan and his Host. Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    Once more this is mirrored in Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
    27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
    28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    As to the Bema, Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10 do not mention outer darkness, nor did I say they did. But the Bema indicates that moment when each Christian must give an account of him/herself.
    Correct no mention of Outer Darkness so i don't think is applys to the Judgment seat of Christ. Once more outer Darkness is only stated in regards to the Kingdom of Heaven.




    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    So let us take this moment as it is enlarged in Matthew 24:44-51.
    Sorry i don't believe Matthew 24:44-51 is about the bema judgment



    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The "YE" of verse 44 is obviously the disciples, for the Lord is addressing them. So then also must the "SERVANT" be disciples. Next, in verse 45 it says "HIS LORD". Now the Jews refused Jesus as Lord. In John 19:15, when Pilate offers Jesus as their King, they answer; "Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar." Thus, the SERVANT of verse 45 is NOT A JEW.
    Like i said this argument doesn't make Sense. The 12 disciples and the early church was still Jews, this passage does not disqualify the term servant from being applied to the Hebrews.




    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Next, the SERVANT is made ruler over Christ's HOUSEHOLD. Israel is NOT Christ's HOUSEHOLD! The CHURCH IS! Thus, the SERVANT must be a Christian.
    Once more your adding a distinction to the book of Matthew that doesn't exist. These servants will be put over the masters Goods, how does this equate to the Promise of Sonship we recieve from Christ. Would you rather inherit with Chist as a CoHeir or be put over his household or the masters "goods", we also can think of the reward specifically to those Jews in the first century who left everything to follow Jesus (See Matt 19:27-30).

    Also Jesus will rule over the House of Israel once more see Luke 1:32-33, He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    So what do you think the LOSS of 1st Corinthians 3 is? Is it not in connection with the Church?
    Yes 1st Corinthains 3 is about the church.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Next, in verse 47 the REWARD is to be "made ruler over all His (Jesus') things". But this is not possible for Jews because in Matthew 21:43 the Kingdom is ripped away from the Jews. The Kingdom of Israel will be restored. David's throne will be restored. But will Israel rule the earth? NAY!
    Then verse 48 IS DECISIVE FOR THE CHRISTIAN AND/OR DISCIPLE. Notice the grammar. "But and if THAT evil servant ... ." It is the SAME SERVANT AS VERSE 47! So also verse 50! It is the Lord of THAT Servant. The only difference is that the Master delayed His coming, and THAT SAME SERVANT became slothful and evil. And the consequences are DIRE for this SERVANT/DISCIPLE/MEMBER OF THE CHURCH! "And (He the Lord of the servant) shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth"


    Take your time and consider it carefully. I too was shocked when, all those years ago, the truth dawned on me that being a Christian is anything but a free ride.
    Sorry brother no offense but your argument is a mess. I tried to go over it point by point but i honestly couldn't get thru it.


    You start by establishing that Paul taught about the Bema for the Church.


    Then you Launch into Matthew 24 once more under the flawed Premise that Jews can't be Servants???


    Your argument assumes the disciples should have understood Jesus teaching to be about the Church after most of the Jews are expelled and it was mainly gentile this to me just can't be established nor does it make any sense.


    You keep citing Matthew 21:43 to say that the "Kingdom" was ripped from the Jews. Once more the Kingdom of God was taken from the Pharassies and Given to the Disciples, but this is not the Kingdom of Heaven(Promised to David) that was taken from the Jews and given to gentiles. See Acts 1:6

  3. #63

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    So Matthew 24/25 is simple, 24 deals with pre-return, 25 deals with the post return of Christ. In 25 Christ is likened in very Jewish analogies to 1. a bridegroom, 2. a businessman, 3. an imperial king.

    Approach it in the same threefold way in Revelation where Christ is in conflict with the World in the same allegorical way, in a little different order

    In Revelation 14 - Christ reveals the Gospel to the world in three different messages and there are three different parts of the city of Mystery Babylon.

    Those three elements are:

    A Woman -
    THE HEART (love and devotion) She is the identity of the city and the mark of its value to God, a bride, or whore, depending on the health of the covenant relationship.

    A Beast -
    THE MIND (rule by laws and kings) Man's mind is described as a beast, based on how much we have rejected God's laws

    Commerce and wealth
    EFFORT AND WORKS (Strength/works of our hands) The value of our actions and works is described as taking place on the "street", at sea, or by various other ways of trade.

    Notice how the last half of Revelation mirrors Matthew 25!

    Put that all together. Christ's second coming initiates a time of reckoning in which he deals out judgement and justice on the nations. In Revelation it is symbolized as a Great White throne.

    The millennium, then, which ends in the lake of fire, is connected to this passage about Christ as a an imperial warrior king. The millennium is that time of "business", where the satanic power of deception is blocked, and mankind BEGINS to be directed back into a righteous path. The businessmen who do bad business are purged.

    The binding of the dragon is a description of the spiritual binding of deception (only accomplished by creating light, you cannot take darkness "out of" a room, you simply shine light on it), So that's not the literal binding of Satan himself. The imagery starts over with a fresh vision about the times after 2nd coming with the Great White Throne. This is the positive aspect of Christ's rule and reign, with the saints glorified during this time of judgement.

    This can only be viewed with one clean conclusion, and that is that Jesus Christ and his saints will be immortal rulers, ruling over a mortal world.
    Your reliance on allegory concerning things like, the lake of fire, binding of Satan, the millennium and Babylon, is not the way that i view things. I use a more literal approach to scriptures whenever possible, even when i don't understand a scripture. The lake of fire will be just punishment for those who reject the way of righteousness (had pleasure in sin) and/or choose the way of iniquity when, it no longer will be a mystery to the world.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    3,933

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Correct, this was the Kingdom God promised in His Covenant with David. Matthew is the book about Jesus the King of Israel and the Kingdom of Heaven is used to refer to this Kingdom, so once more if you notice the passages that are specifically about that Kingdom (including ALL outer Darkness Quotes) you will understand why i don't apply it to the Kingdom of God, which we are now a part of by the indwelling of the Spirit. Romans 14:17. Passages that specifically define and promise the Kingdom of Heaven are

    Daniel 2:44, in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

    The God of Heaven will *set up* a Kingdom

    Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

    Fullfilled in the NT in Rev 11:15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


    Promised by Jesus Matthew 19:28 That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


    29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.


    30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

    Also see Luke 22:24 A dispute also arose among them, as to which of them was to be regarded as the greatest. 25 And he said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those in authority over them are called benefactors. 26 But not so with you. Rather, let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves. 27 For who is the greater, one who reclines at table or one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at table? But I am among you as the one who serves.

    28“You are those who have stayed with me in my trials, 29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Once more notice that the Kingdom of Heaven is Jesus on the Throne of His Glory (The Throne of David) and the deciples on 12 thrones ruling over the House of JACOB, not the "House of the Church".

    This however is different then the Kingdom of God found to be proclaimed at the casting down of Satan and his Host. Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    Once more this is mirrored in Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
    27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
    28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

    Correct no mention of Outer Darkness so i don't think is applys to the Judgment seat of Christ. Once more outer Darkness is only stated in regards to the Kingdom of Heaven.




    Sorry i don't believe Matthew 24:44-51 is about the bema judgment



    Like i said this argument doesn't make Sense. The 12 disciples and the early church was still Jews, this passage does not disqualify the term servant from being applied to the Hebrews.




    Once more your adding a distinction to the book of Matthew that doesn't exist. These servants will be put over the masters Goods, how does this equate to the Promise of Sonship we recieve from Christ. Would you rather inherit with Chist as a CoHeir or be put over his household or the masters "goods", we also can think of the reward specifically to those Jews in the first century who left everything to follow Jesus (See Matt 19:27-30).

    Also Jesus will rule over the House of Israel once more see Luke 1:32-33, He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”


    Yes 1st Corinthains 3 is about the church.


    Sorry brother no offense but your argument is a mess. I tried to go over it point by point but i honestly couldn't get thru it.


    You start by establishing that Paul taught about the Bema for the Church.


    Then you Launch into Matthew 24 once more under the flawed Premise that Jews can't be Servants???


    Your argument assumes the disciples should have understood Jesus teaching to be about the Church after most of the Jews are expelled and it was mainly gentile this to me just can't be established nor does it make any sense.


    You keep citing Matthew 21:43 to say that the "Kingdom" was ripped from the Jews. Once more the Kingdom of God was taken from the Pharassies and Given to the Disciples, but this is not the Kingdom of Heaven(Promised to David) that was taken from the Jews and given to gentiles. See Acts 1:6
    OK. Thanks for your answer. We've heard my argument. Maybe you ...

    ► could supply verses that the Kingdom of Heaven was in the Davidic Covenant. I understood it was concerning the throne of ISRAEL - not all the nations and or "earth" as Matthew 6:10 says. In 2nd Samuel 7:13-16 it is, "the throne of HIS Kingdom". David's Kingdom was neither the Kingdom of Heaven nor kingship over any nation other than Israel. In Psalm 89:28-40 it is again "HIS throne" over and over. David's throne was over Israel. In Psalm 132:11 it is, "... will I set upon THY (David's) throne ... .". So also verse 12. In 1st Kings 9:5 it is, "I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel." In 2nd Chronicles 6:16 it is, "Now therefore, O LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; ... ."

    ► could give your exegesis on Matthew 24:44-51 - who the servant is and what happens to him who will rule over all His goods if faithful IN HIS HOUSE, but could suffer chastisement if the same servant are slothful/evil IN HIS HOUSE if they are not Christians.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    2,671

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. Thanks for your answer. We've heard my argument. Maybe you ...

    ► could supply verses that the Kingdom of Heaven was in the Davidic Covenant. I understood it was concerning the throne of ISRAEL - not all the nations and or "earth" as Matthew 6:10 says. In 2nd Samuel 7:13-16 it is, "the throne of HIS Kingdom". David's Kingdom was neither the Kingdom of Heaven nor kingship over any nation other than Israel. In Psalm 89:28-40 it is again "HIS throne" over and over. David's throne was over Israel. In Psalm 132:11 it is, "... will I set upon THY (David's) throne ... .". So also verse 12. In 1st Kings 9:5 it is, "I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel." In 2nd Chronicles 6:16 it is, "Now therefore, O LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; ... ."
    I don't really see the point of supplying a bunch of verses but i will just say these things can be found all over Isaiah for example. Here is a passage Isaiah 2:It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it,3 and many peoples shall come, and say:“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob,that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law,[a] and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. 4 He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    ► could give your exegesis on Matthew 24:44-51 - who the servant is and what happens to him who will rule over all His goods if faithful IN HIS HOUSE, but could suffer chastisement if the same servant are slothful/evil IN HIS HOUSE if they are not Christians.
    I already did,i gave Ezekliel 20:33-44 For on my holy mountain, the mountain height of Israel, declares the Lord GOD, there all the house of Israel, all of them, shall serve me in the land.


    My contention with your position is not that these people cannot be Christians, my contention with your belief is that you somehow expected the disciples to understand the term servant here to refer to a majority Gentile Church while disqualifying their own people specifically(the Jews).

    Here is one you quoted recently in another thread.

    "But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Steynsburg, Eastern Cape
    Posts
    340
    Blog Entries
    11

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post

    You keep citing Matthew 21:43 to say that the "Kingdom" was ripped from the Jews. Once more the Kingdom of God was taken from the Pharassies and Given to the Disciples, but this is not the Kingdom of Heaven(Promised to David) that was taken from the Jews and given to gentiles. See Acts 1:6
    This must rank as one of the worst responses ever. But then what did I expect from someone fighting for the antichrist doctrine. Jesus is quoting Isaiah 5 where Isaiah defines who these people are. [I]"And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.[/I]" (Isa 5:5-7)
    Shama - A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.): - X attentively, call (gather) together, X carefully, X certainly, consent, consider, be content, declare, X diligently, discern, give ear, (cause to, let, make to) hear (-ken, tell), X indeed, listen, make (a) noise, (be) obedient, obey, perceive, (make a) proclaim (-ation), publish, regard, report, shew (forth), (make a) sound, X surely, tell, understand, whosoever [heareth], witness

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    2,671

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louwrens Erasmus View Post
    This must rank as one of the worst responses ever. But then what did I expect from someone fighting for the antichrist doctrine. Jesus is quoting Isaiah 5 where Isaiah defines who these people are. [I]"And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.[/I]" (Isa 5:5-7)
    Thanks for sharing your opinion =). I am familiar with this quote from Isaiah.

    So just for the record do you believe this verse is false?

    Matthew 21:45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them.


    If you believe that verse to be true explain to me what exactly do you believe was "worst" about my response?

  8. #68

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    "41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons." Matthew 21:41. The "other husbandmen" in this passage refers to the believing remnant of Israel (of that future tribulation period / 70th Wk / 7 yrs); the "Servants" of that future time period.
    [see also Mark 12:2,7-9]


    [Isa5:7 "the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel..."]

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,994

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louwrens Erasmus View Post
    This must rank as one of the worst responses ever. But then what did I expect from someone fighting for the antichrist doctrine. Jesus is quoting Isaiah 5 where Isaiah defines who these people are. [I]"And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.[/I]" (Isa 5:5-7)
    When you think the Isaiah 5 passage applies? Do you really not know this is still a future event of God's wrath? In the mean time, you are bashing the Lord's people and sowing discord among the brethren, and you have the gall to accuse the body of Christ of fighting for the AC? Jesus was indeed wise to warn us in Matt 7:15 and 10:16.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    3,933

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I don't really see the point of supplying a bunch of verses but i will just say these things can be found all over Isaiah for example. Here is a passage Isaiah 2:It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it,3 and many peoples shall come, and say:“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob,that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law,[a] and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. 4 He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.
    Yes. But this regards our Lord Jesus as King of kings of the whole earth. So also Zechariah 14:16. Our Lord Jesus will DWELL in Jerusalem and be adulated there by all nations, but the Davidic Covenant only concerned Israel, as the multiple scriptures that I gave, say.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    ► could give your exegesis on Matthew 24:44-51 - who the servant is and what happens to him who will rule over all His goods if faithful IN HIS HOUSE, but could suffer chastisement if the same servant are slothful/evil IN HIS HOUSE if they are not Christians.
    I already did,i gave Ezekliel 20:33-44 For on my holy mountain, the mountain height of Israel, declares the Lord GOD, there all the house of Israel, all of them, shall serve me in the land.


    My contention with your position is not that these people cannot be Christians, my contention with your belief is that you somehow expected the disciples to understand the term servant here to refer to a majority Gentile Church while disqualifying their own people specifically(the Jews).

    Here is one you quoted recently in another thread.

    "But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
    You have not expounded ONE VERSE from Matthew 24:44-51. I am a student of scripture. You might have something that I have not yet seen. May I ask you again, in the style that I showed what Matthew 24:44-51 showed, to expound this text showing who the servant is, which House it is, and what the consequnces of abusing the fellow servants are.

    Thanks bro, and God bless.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    2,671

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Yes. But this regards our Lord Jesus as King of kings of the whole earth. So also Zechariah 14:16. Our Lord Jesus will DWELL in Jerusalem and be adulated there by all nations, but the Davidic Covenant only concerned Israel, as the multiple scriptures that I gave, say.
    The point I'm making is Jesus rules the House of Israel on the throne of David.

    Luke 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”



    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You have not expounded ONE VERSE from Matthew 24:44-51. I am a student of scripture. You might have something that I have not yet seen. May I ask you again, in the style that I showed what Matthew 24:44-51 showed, to expound this text showing who the servant is, which House it is, and what the consequnces of abusing the fellow servants are.

    Thanks bro, and God bless.
    Sorry I don't understand the relevance of Matt 24:44-51. I already told you nothing in that passage suggest to me that the House of Israel or that the Jews cant be servants of God. Nor have you convinced me that Jesus is not a part of the house of Israel(Jacob) or the house of David or the house of Judah(specifically). So when you say things like Israel is not his house or that Jews specifically can't be his servants I just don't agree.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    3,933

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    The point I'm making is Jesus rules the House of Israel on the throne of David.

    Luke 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”



    Sorry I don't understand the relevance of Matt 24:44-51. I already told you nothing in that passage suggest to me that the House of Israel or that the Jews cant be servants of God. Nor have you convinced me that Jesus is not a part of the house of Israel(Jacob) or the house of David or the house of Judah(specifically). So when you say things like Israel is not his house or that Jews specifically can't be his servants I just don't agree.
    OK. Thanks for your answer. God bless.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    2,671

    Re: Sheep and Goats, Right hand and Left hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. Thanks for your answer. God bless.
    No problem, if you want to present passages to establish that Israel is not the house of our Lord and now he has a new house called the House of the "Church" i would be happy to see it, but as i stated i don't think Matthew 24:44-51 establishes this.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Are we sheep or sons...or both? And who are goats?
    By Stonesoffire in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 164
    Last Post: Feb 9th 2016, 12:51 AM
  2. Jesus Christ mudras. Left hand and Right hand
    By itchygo in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: Feb 2nd 2015, 10:30 PM
  3. Sheep and the Goats... and the forgotten x-factor.
    By RockSolid in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: Dec 8th 2014, 10:08 PM
  4. Sheep, goats, richman, poorman
    By mikebr in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: Jul 22nd 2008, 09:48 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •