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Thread: 24 elders origin in OT priestly divisions

  1. #16
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    Re: 24 elders origin in OT priestly divisions

    I hope this doesn't derail the thread, but perhaps adds to it.

    In Rev 4,5, and 14 we read about God's throne surrounded by 4 creatures and then 24 elders. First, the creatures. They each have six wings, as do the Seraphim in Isaiah.

    Rev 4:8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within.
    Isaiah 6:2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.

    Both appear to be at even level with God's throne, above the sea of crystal/glass.

    Isaiah 6:1 ... I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2 Above it [the temple?] stood seraphim
    Rev 4:6 And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures
    Enoch 40:2 And on the four sides of the Lord of Spirits I saw four presences, different from those that sleep not, and I learnt their names... [Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Phanuel]

    Perhaps we can assume the Seraphim are these four creatures described in Revelation.

    Now, if indeed the 24 elders are angelic and not humans, perhaps they are the Cherubim that Ezekiel saw. The Cherubim seem to be in groups of four. Six groups would equal 24 forming a hexagon around the throne? They are also shown to be below the level of God's throne.

    Ezekiel 10:1 And I looked, and there in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubim, there appeared something like a sapphire stone, having the appearance of the likeness of a throne.
    Rev 4 doesn't really tell us if the 24 elders are level with or below the throne.
    Rev 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb [perhaps suggests two levels?]
    Enoch 14:12 fiery cherubim, and their heaven was (clear as) water....And I looked and saw therein a lofty throne: its appearance was as crystal, and the wheels thereof as the shining sun, and there was the vision of 19 cherubim. And from underneath the throne came streams of flaming fire so that I could not look 20 thereon.

    The case for the four creatures being the Seraphim is pretty good. The case for the Cherubim being the 24 elders is a bit sketchy, imo. But, it may be possible. Their descriptions were given for a reason. However, Ezekiel's description of the Cherubim is rather radical and I'm not sure how John would just call them elders. Idk.

    Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands

    We have God's throne, four creatures, 24 elders, and then myriads of angels. Perhaps the process of elimination leads to us at least consider that the 24 elders are indeed the Cherubim.

    Other pieces of circumstantial evidence from Enoch.

    Enoch 71:6 And my spirit saw the girdle which girt that house of fire, And on its four sides were streams full of living fire, And they girt that house. 7 And round about were Seraphin, Cherubic, and Ophannin: And these are they who sleep not And guard the throne of His glory. 8 And I saw angels who could not be counted, A thousand thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand,
    Encircling that house.

    This is almost exactly what John records in Rev 5:11 above, with the addition of Ophannin. IF the order of names is correct, it would suggest the Seraphim are the closest to the throne. Then Cherubim. Then Ophannin. Then myriads of angels. Perhaps this second group of Cherubim are the 24 elders?

    Enoch 40 says that the four creatures around the throne include Gabriel and Michael. Gabriel is over the Cherubim. Satan is called a Cherub in Ezekiel.

    Enoch 21:7 ...Gabriel, one of the holy 8 angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim.

    Ezekiel 28:14 “You were the anointed Cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

    IF the Seraphim are over the Cherubim, and satan was a cherub, and Michael is a Seraph, then that could explain why Michael is the one to cast satan out of heaven in Rev 12. This may be thin, but it does add up. Anyway, just some thoughts about the elders and creatures.

  2. #17

    Re: 24 elders origin in OT priestly divisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    I hope this doesn't derail the thread, but perhaps adds to it.

    In Rev 4,5, and 14 we read about God's throne surrounded by 4 creatures and then 24 elders. First, the creatures. They each have six wings, as do the Seraphim in Isaiah.

    Rev 4:8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within.
    Isaiah 6:2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.

    Both appear to be at even level with God's throne, above the sea of crystal/glass.

    Isaiah 6:1 ... I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2 Above it [the temple?] stood seraphimRev 4
    :6 And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures
    Enoch 40:2 And on the four sides of the Lord of Spirits I saw four presences, different from those that sleep not, and I learnt their names... [Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Phanuel]

    Perhaps we can assume the Seraphim are these four creatures described in Revelation.

    Now, if indeed the 24 elders are angelic and not humans, perhaps they are the Cherubim that Ezekiel saw. The Cherubim seem to be in groups of four. Six groups would equal 24 forming a hexagon around the throne? They are also shown to be below the level of God's throne.

    Ezekiel 10:1 And I looked, and there in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubim, there appeared something like a sapphire stone, having the appearance of the likeness of a throne.
    Rev 4 doesn't really tell us if the 24 elders are level with or below the throne.
    Rev 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb [perhaps suggests two levels?]
    Enoch 14:12 fiery cherubim, and their heaven was (clear as) water....And I looked and saw therein a lofty throne: its appearance was as crystal, and the wheels thereof as the shining sun, and there was the vision of 19 cherubim. And from underneath the throne came streams of flaming fire so that I could not look 20 thereon.

    The case for the four creatures being the Seraphim is pretty good. The case for the Cherubim being the 24 elders is a bit sketchy, imo. But, it may be possible. Their descriptions were given for a reason. However, Ezekiel's description of the Cherubim is rather radical and I'm not sure how John would just call them elders. Idk.

    Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands

    We have God's throne, four creatures, 24 elders, and then myriads of angels. Perhaps the process of elimination leads to us at least consider that the 24 elders are indeed the Cherubim.

    Other pieces of circumstantial evidence from Enoch.

    Enoch 71:6 And my spirit saw the girdle which girt that house of fire, And on its four sides were streams full of living fire, And they girt that house. 7 And round about were Seraphin, Cherubic, and Ophannin: And these are they who sleep not And guard the throne of His glory. 8 And I saw angels who could not be counted, A thousand thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand,
    Encircling that house.

    This is almost exactly what John records in Rev 5:11 above, with the addition of Ophannin. IF the order of names is correct, it would suggest the Seraphim are the closest to the throne. Then Cherubim. Then Ophannin. Then myriads of angels. Perhaps this second group of Cherubim are the 24 elders?

    Enoch 40 says that the four creatures around the throne include Gabriel and Michael. Gabriel is over the Cherubim. Satan is called a Cherub in Ezekiel.

    Enoch 21:7 ...Gabriel, one of the holy 8 angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim.

    Ezekiel 28:14 “You were the anointed Cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

    IF the Seraphim are over the Cherubim, and satan was a cherub, and Michael is a Seraph, then that could explain why Michael is the one to cast satan out of heaven in Rev 12. This may be thin, but it does add up. Anyway, just some thoughts about the elders and creatures.
    Yep. Definitely something to think about. Thanks! I thought the 4 living creatures might've been the cherubim, because similar creatures in Ezekiel are called that. But I don't know....

    Eze 1.10 Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a human being, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle.
    Eze 10. I looked, and I saw the likeness of a throne of lapis lazuli above the vault that was over the heads of the cherubim.

    Rev 4.In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.

    ​I wish I could say I have proof that the 24 elders are angels, but I don't. The 4 living creatures appear to clearly be angels, however.

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