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Thread: The 7 churches in Revelation

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    The 7 churches in Revelation

    Who are the 7 churches Jesus is speaking to in Revelation? I know the names and scripture, but For this generation, who and where are they?
    Are you into God?

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    Re: The 7 churches in Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by RUN2GOD View Post
    Who are the 7 churches Jesus is speaking to in Revelation? I know the names and scripture, but For this generation, who and where are they?
    For this generation the CONDITION of each Church can be observed in our Church today. And the dire warnings and the reward to those FEW Overcomers is as applicable now as then.

    Some also say that each Church has an historical application, but it is very difficult to define the times they seemed to apply to.

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    Re: The 7 churches in Revelation - roman emperors, laodicea, lampstands, etc... :)

    Quote Originally Posted by RUN2GOD View Post
    Who are the 7 churches Jesus is speaking to in Revelation? I know the names and scripture, but For this generation, who and where are they?
    First it is very important to understand the symbolism in the letters. For instance, the sword of Christ's mouth is not a real sword, it represents his tongue, and whether he confesses your name before his Father in Heaven. To fight you with the sword of his mouth is to be verbally condemned by Jesus Christ. His tongue is a sword of the truth.

    We also need to do justice to the fact that certain cities are mentioned, and explore 1st century historical application.
    In the 1st century perspective, here is one rather simple explanation that may fit.
    The Deeds/Doctrine of the Nicolaitans
    Jesus commended the Ephesians for hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans because He hated their deeds also. I know this is strong languages and foreign to many that Jesus hates some people’s deeds but He does. So who are the Nicolaitans and what are their deeds?

    The Nicolaitans seemed to be followers of a man named Nicolas. His very name means, ruler OVER the people. Some early church leaders indicate that this may have been the deacon Nicolas from Acts 6, but I might say that there is some controversy surrounding that. The deeds of the Nicolaitans however are what we would call in modern language Antinomianism. Antinomian means, without law or lawless. The antinomian heresy would put such heavy emphasis on grace that it does away with the moral law. Nicolas, preached grace in such a way that it gave the people a license to sin.

    http://www.housechurchesusa.com/page...Teryl%20Hebert


    We also must discern what a lampstand represents, which I believe points us to the wider application of the instructions for all the churches to hear the warnings and rewards in a global church view. That means applying the significance of the spiritual conditions represented holistically by the prophecies to church history up to the present day.

    A popular view is that we are today in the Laodicean age. Underpinning that theory is a series of allegorical connections between church history and culture, and the text of the letters. For instance, the "ten days" of persecution for the church of Smyrna is said to represent symbolically the worldwide persecution on Christianity by ten Roman Emperors. In spite of there not be a precedent for "days" being "emperors" in other prophecy, or agreement on exactly which emporors to use (such as if Nero is the starting point, or not) it is worthy of consideration. That places the Smyrna church as as something near to this era:

    95 AD - Emperor Domitian
    112 Trajan
    177 Marcus Aurelius (cf. the famous martyrdoms at Lyon)
    211 Septimus Severus
    235 Maximus Thrax
    250 Decius
    257 Valerian
    303 Diocletian
    323 Licinius
    361 Julian
    -source: http://ichthys.com/mail-10days.htm

    An example of this perspective (one I would lean close to, except that I would probably not agree on how the 70th week plays out).


    A similar perspective on the 7 ages: http://christianitybeliefs.org/revel...ation-2-and-3/

    Another example of the church age theory (not one I would lean to): https://www.revelationendtime.com/church-ages

    I have discussed my own perspective on the Laodicean church as far as it relates to premillenialism here: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...d-the-lukewarm
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  4. #4

    Re: The 7 churches in Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by RUN2GOD View Post
    Who are the 7 churches Jesus is speaking to in Revelation? I know the names and scripture, but For this generation, who and where are they?
    These historical churches were the Christians in these specific cities in Asia Minor. It firmly places the Revelation in the time of John, and it is out of Asia Minor that the early Premil eschatology issued. It was a view of Church history in which Christians are favored by God and yet persecuted by world authorities and rejected, in fact, by the world.

    The different conditions of these churches adequately display the problems all Christians and all churches experience--problems with spiritual compromise and doctrinal compromise. We need encouragement in our resistance to temptation and in our resistance to opposition. And we need the encouragement that comes with the assurance of our promises in the future.

  5. #5

    Re: The 7 churches in Revelation - roman emperors, laodicea, lampstands, etc... :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    First it is very important to understand the symbolism in the letters. For instance, the sword of Christ's mouth is not a real sword, it represents his tongue, and whether he confesses your name before his Father in Heaven. To fight you with the sword of his mouth is to be verbally condemned by Jesus Christ. His tongue is a sword of the truth.

    We also need to do justice to the fact that certain cities are mentioned, and explore 1st century historical application.
    In the 1st century perspective, here is one rather simple explanation that may fit.
    The Deeds/Doctrine of the Nicolaitans
    Jesus commended the Ephesians for hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans because He hated their deeds also. I know this is strong languages and foreign to many that Jesus hates some people’s deeds but He does. So who are the Nicolaitans and what are their deeds?

    The Nicolaitans seemed to be followers of a man named Nicolas. His very name means, ruler OVER the people. Some early church leaders indicate that this may have been the deacon Nicolas from Acts 6, but I might say that there is some controversy surrounding that. The deeds of the Nicolaitans however are what we would call in modern language Antinomianism. Antinomian means, without law or lawless. The antinomian heresy would put such heavy emphasis on grace that it does away with the moral law. Nicolas, preached grace in such a way that it gave the people a license to sin.

    http://www.housechurchesusa.com/page...Teryl%20Hebert


    We also must discern what a lampstand represents, which I believe points us to the wider application of the instructions for all the churches to hear the warnings and rewards in a global church view. That means applying the significance of the spiritual conditions represented holistically by the prophecies to church history up to the present day.

    A popular view is that we are today in the Laodicean age. Underpinning that theory is a series of allegorical connections between church history and culture, and the text of the letters. For instance, the "ten days" of persecution for the church of Smyrna is said to represent symbolically the worldwide persecution on Christianity by ten Roman Emperors. In spite of there not be a precedent for "days" being "emperors" in other prophecy, or agreement on exactly which emporors to use (such as if Nero is the starting point, or not) it is worthy of consideration. That places the Smyrna church as as something near to this era:

    95 AD - Emperor Domitian
    112 Trajan
    177 Marcus Aurelius (cf. the famous martyrdoms at Lyon)
    211 Septimus Severus
    235 Maximus Thrax
    250 Decius
    257 Valerian
    303 Diocletian
    323 Licinius
    361 Julian
    -source: http://ichthys.com/mail-10days.htm

    An example of this perspective (one I would lean close to, except that I would probably not agree on how the 70th week plays out).


    A similar perspective on the 7 ages: http://christianitybeliefs.org/revel...ation-2-and-3/

    Another example of the church age theory (not one I would lean to): https://www.revelationendtime.com/church-ages

    I have discussed my own perspective on the Laodicean church as far as it relates to premillenialism here: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...d-the-lukewarm
    Thanks for sharing the table and other info! I too learned the letters also to show the history of the church and different stages. I will be studying the other information you posted.

    I also can see how the church very much coukd be in tbe Laodiciean era.

    A question for you, I have studied Nicolaitans prior and the only thing I could find was during that time there were those who ruled over people, and some liken this to the local churches of today. In the sense that we are all equal in our service, no one is greater or has more power than another, but today the local churches have sort of reverted back to that, ehich has caused the congregations to be more complacent in their pursuit of God (the pastor does all the work) which has ushered in the Laodician era for the church.

    Not saying this is my belief, but it does make sense to me. What about you, make sense?

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    Re: The 7 churches in Revelation - roman emperors, laodicea, lampstands, etc... :)

    hmmmm....

    following....
    16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18. Wherefore comfort one another with this word. (1Thessalonians4:16-18)


    my worst fears in life is missing the Kingdom of God


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    Re: The 7 churches in Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by RUN2GOD View Post
    Who are the 7 churches Jesus is speaking to in Revelation? I know the names and scripture, but For this generation, who and where are they?
    The Letters are enduring and applicable to the church today as it did in the 1st century.

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    Re: The 7 churches in Revelation - roman emperors, laodicea, lampstands, etc... :)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    Thanks for sharing the table and other info! I too learned the letters also to show the history of the church and different stages. I will be studying the other information you posted.

    I also can see how the church very much coukd be in tbe Laodiciean era.

    A question for you, I have studied Nicolaitans prior and the only thing I could find was during that time there were those who ruled over people, and some liken this to the local churches of today. In the sense that we are all equal in our service, no one is greater or has more power than another, but today the local churches have sort of reverted back to that, ehich has caused the congregations to be more complacent in their pursuit of God (the pastor does all the work) which has ushered in the Laodician era for the church.

    Not saying this is my belief, but it does make sense to me. What about you, make sense?
    I think that I liked the linkage between the Nicolaitans and the philosophy/religion of Antinomianism, which is something to do with cheap grace and "anything goes", leading to sexual immorality. This was one of the things I found in one of think I posted.

    Specifically regarding the pastors and clergymen who seem to appease the congregations, yes, I agree that is in large part what is the trouble. But the church has always had leadership and a governance structure. One pastor I know believes church government and leadership are like an implicit theology like the trinity. As such, church membership is a doctrine, and deacons and pastors and overseers are implicitly required.

    The issue is that the leaders are spreading false doctrines.

    I believe the complacency is really related closely to the nature of our faith, do we in fact, as a church believe in a God, at all? I would argue that a general malaise is on the church for having adopted secular views and humanistic views such as evolution, same sex marriage, and rejecting many of the literal stories of the Old Testament as a fabrication. People are falling out of love with Bible stories, because they feel that science has discredited the narrative, that Yahweh was invented for racist and misogynistic power structure reasons... etc....

    But what you say has a lot of truth, leaders today often claim to have apostolic power from God (Popishness) and persuade people to follow them based on these notions of their grandeur, and in so doing, men follow men, not God, leading to spiritual complacency.
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  9. #9

    Re: The 7 churches in Revelation - roman emperors, laodicea, lampstands, etc... :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    I think that I liked the linkage between the Nicolaitans and the philosophy/religion of Antinomianism, which is something to do with cheap grace and "anything goes", leading to sexual immorality. This was one of the things I found in one of think I posted.

    Specifically regarding the pastors and clergymen who seem to appease the congregations, yes, I agree that is in large part what is the trouble. But the church has always had leadership and a governance structure. One pastor I know believes church government and leadership are like an implicit theology like the trinity. As such, church membership is a doctrine, and deacons and pastors and overseers are implicitly required.

    The issue is that the leaders are spreading false doctrines.

    I believe the complacency is really related closely to the nature of our faith, do we in fact, as a church believe in a God, at all? I would argue that a general malaise is on the church for having adopted secular views and humanistic views such as evolution, same sex marriage, and rejecting many of the literal stories of the Old Testament as a fabrication. People are falling out of love with Bible stories, because they feel that science has discredited the narrative, that Yahweh was invented for racist and misogynistic power structure reasons... etc....

    But what you say has a lot of truth, leaders today often claim to have apostolic power from God (Popishness) and persuade people to follow them based on these notions of their grandeur, and in so doing, men follow men, not God, leading to spiritual complacency.
    It sounds like the Laodicean's lukewarmness that occurred and is occurring is made up of many factors. We can't refer to one of them and lay complete blame.
    Thanks.

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    Re: The 7 churches in Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by RUN2GOD View Post
    Who are the 7 churches Jesus is speaking to in Revelation? I know the names and scripture, but For this generation, who and where are they?
    They were literal churches that were around at the time John wrote revelation people are even named in the seven letters. Revelation was written to them but it also applies to us. Revelation was also a warning to them that a persecution was coming but also a promise that Jesus would walk with them through it and that the church would prevail.

    Each personal letter was read in each church.

  11. #11

    Re: The 7 churches in Revelation - roman emperors, laodicea, lampstands, etc... :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    I think that I liked the linkage between the Nicolaitans and the philosophy/religion of Antinomianism, which is something to do with cheap grace and "anything goes", leading to sexual immorality. This was one of the things I found in one of think I posted.

    Specifically regarding the pastors and clergymen who seem to appease the congregations, yes, I agree that is in large part what is the trouble. But the church has always had leadership and a governance structure. One pastor I know believes church government and leadership are like an implicit theology like the trinity. As such, church membership is a doctrine, and deacons and pastors and overseers are implicitly required.

    The issue is that the leaders are spreading false doctrines.

    I believe the complacency is really related closely to the nature of our faith, do we in fact, as a church believe in a God, at all? I would argue that a general malaise is on the church for having adopted secular views and humanistic views such as evolution, same sex marriage, and rejecting many of the literal stories of the Old Testament as a fabrication. People are falling out of love with Bible stories, because they feel that science has discredited the narrative, that Yahweh was invented for racist and misogynistic power structure reasons... etc....

    But what you say has a lot of truth, leaders today often claim to have apostolic power from God (Popishness) and persuade people to follow them based on these notions of their grandeur, and in so doing, men follow men, not God, leading to spiritual complacency.
    I saw this view of the Nicolaitans as very thoughtful and well-spoken. Thank you!

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    Re: The 7 churches in Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by RUN2GOD View Post
    Who are the 7 churches Jesus is speaking to in Revelation? I know the names and scripture, but For this generation, who and where are they?
    Primarily the Turks in Turkey. All seven are located in modern day Turkey, which is quite interesting since none of these churches yet exist. They will come to be in about 7 more years when God's Spirit is given rest in the north country. Zechariah 6:8. Then angels will administer these new churches.

  13. #13

    Re: The 7 churches in Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    They were literal churches that were around at the time John wrote revelation people are even named in the seven letters. Revelation was written to them but it also applies to us. Revelation was also a warning to them that a persecution was coming but also a promise that Jesus would walk with them through it and that the church would prevail.

    Each personal letter was read in each church.
    I think this last point of yours was especially important to be noted. If the letters to each of these seven churches was read in *all seven churches,* then the message was not just for a single church, nor for any single corresponding era--if indeed we relate these churches to specific eras.

    Personally, I see the condition of these churches as present somewhere on the earth in every era. And we need to be individually concerned about each condition with respect to our own life and spirituality.

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    Re: The 7 churches in Revelation - roman emperors, laodicea, lampstands, etc... :)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    Thanks for sharing the table and other info! I too learned the letters also to show the history of the church and different stages. I will be studying the other information you posted.

    I also can see how the church very much coukd be in tbe Laodiciean era.

    A question for you, I have studied Nicolaitans prior and the only thing I could find was during that time there were those who ruled over people, and some liken this to the local churches of today. In the sense that we are all equal in our service, no one is greater or has more power than another, but today the local churches have sort of reverted back to that, ehich has caused the congregations to be more complacent in their pursuit of God (the pastor does all the work) which has ushered in the Laodician era for the church.

    Not saying this is my belief, but it does make sense to me. What about you, make sense?
    Nice summation. I understand this as well. "Nicolaitan" is an Anglicization of two Greek words. "Nico" meaning "ruler" or "subjugator", and "Laity" meaning the "common man". The Catholic Church is the prime example of the Nicolaitan system in effect. The common man (the Laity) were even forbidden from reading, studying and expounding the Bible. Any Assembly that is "ruled" by a man, or men, has replaced Christ as Head, and this system is HATED by God.

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    Re: The 7 churches in Revelation - roman emperors, laodicea, lampstands, etc... :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    First it is very important to understand the symbolism in the letters. For instance, the sword of Christ's mouth is not a real sword, it represents his tongue, and whether he confesses your name before his Father in Heaven. To fight you with the sword of his mouth is to be verbally condemned by Jesus Christ. His tongue is a sword of the truth.

    We also need to do justice to the fact that certain cities are mentioned, and explore 1st century historical application.
    In the 1st century perspective, here is one rather simple explanation that may fit.
    The Deeds/Doctrine of the Nicolaitans
    Jesus commended the Ephesians for hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans because He hated their deeds also. I know this is strong languages and foreign to many that Jesus hates some people’s deeds but He does. So who are the Nicolaitans and what are their deeds?

    The Nicolaitans seemed to be followers of a man named Nicolas. His very name means, ruler OVER the people. Some early church leaders indicate that this may have been the deacon Nicolas from Acts 6, but I might say that there is some controversy surrounding that. The deeds of the Nicolaitans however are what we would call in modern language Antinomianism. Antinomian means, without law or lawless. The antinomian heresy would put such heavy emphasis on grace that it does away with the moral law. Nicolas, preached grace in such a way that it gave the people a license to sin.

    http://www.housechurchesusa.com/page...Teryl%20Hebert


    We also must discern what a lampstand represents, which I believe points us to the wider application of the instructions for all the churches to hear the warnings and rewards in a global church view. That means applying the significance of the spiritual conditions represented holistically by the prophecies to church history up to the present day.

    A popular view is that we are today in the Laodicean age. Underpinning that theory is a series of allegorical connections between church history and culture, and the text of the letters. For instance, the "ten days" of persecution for the church of Smyrna is said to represent symbolically the worldwide persecution on Christianity by ten Roman Emperors. In spite of there not be a precedent for "days" being "emperors" in other prophecy, or agreement on exactly which emporors to use (such as if Nero is the starting point, or not) it is worthy of consideration. That places the Smyrna church as as something near to this era:

    95 AD - Emperor Domitian
    112 Trajan
    177 Marcus Aurelius (cf. the famous martyrdoms at Lyon)
    211 Septimus Severus
    235 Maximus Thrax
    250 Decius
    257 Valerian
    303 Diocletian
    323 Licinius
    361 Julian
    -source: http://ichthys.com/mail-10days.htm

    An example of this perspective (one I would lean close to, except that I would probably not agree on how the 70th week plays out).


    A similar perspective on the 7 ages: http://christianitybeliefs.org/revel...ation-2-and-3/

    Another example of the church age theory (not one I would lean to): https://www.revelationendtime.com/church-ages

    I have discussed my own perspective on the Laodicean church as far as it relates to premillenialism here: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...d-the-lukewarm
    I like your tables here presented. But, as I posted before, the historical TIMES of each Church cannot be proven with scripture. You have to approach scripture from the writer's point of view. Without the hindsight of history, of what value was the Word of God to those Christians in say, 300 AD, 1,000 AD and during the Reformation? See the problem?

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